[JonathonWilder]

Re: Here Enters Jonathon Wilder

I rather suspect he's sitting in magic underwear as we speak.

Laughs, sorry like I said what matters is I am not a Landover Baptist. On this site that is all that matters to many here, if I am not Landover Baptist I am not following God the way I should. (which you can tell I disagree with))

[Rev. M. Rodimer]

Re: Here Enters Jonathon Wilder

Laughs, sorry like I said what matters is I am not a Landover Baptist. On this site that is all that matters to many here, if I am not Landover Baptist I am not following God the way I should. (which you can tell I disagree with))

Wrong.

If you are a certified True Christian(tm), then we know you are following the entire Bible as written.

However, there are people who follow the entire Bible as written who have not been certified as True Christians(tm), and who have never heard of Landover.

You have already pointed out that you do not follow the Bible as written, and that's what matters.

[JonathonWilder]

Re: Here Enters Jonathon Wilder

I do follow the Bible as written, as well as studied it and the history behind the Holy Bible... understanding the words within.

[Mary Etheldreda]

Re: Here Enters Jonathon Wilder

Laughs, sorry like I said what matters is I am not a Landover Baptist. On this site that is all that matters to many here, if I am not Landover Baptist I am not following God the way I should. (which you can tell I disagree with))

It matters not to me if you disagree. It matters only to you. If you continue following the Bible "as written" only in those passages you prefer to actually follow, ignoring or modifying the rest, then God will certainly punish you for all eternity.

<---- Mr. Wilder contemplating why he didn't trust and follow the ENTIRE BIBLE when the good folks at Landover Baptist Church forum first warned him

[Pastor Isaac Peters]

Re: Here Enters Jonathon Wilder

Subordination Within the Trinity
Orthodox Trinitarianism asserts that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are also co-equals, but plenty of Bible verses show subordination among them:
•Jesus Christ calls the Father "my father" (Luke 22:2) and the Father calls Jesus Christ "my beloved Son" (Mark 1:11). The father-son relationship is not based on equality.
•Jesus Christ submitted to the will of the Father (Matt 26:39.) The fact that Christ prays to the the Father at all signifies an unequal relationship.
•The Father "sent" the son to the world (1 John 4:10.)
•The Holy Spirit is sent by the Father and the Son (John 14:26, John 15:26.)

Those verses actually support the Trinity. If there were no differentiation among the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost, then a single Person would have to be subordinate to Himself, to send Himself, to pray to Himself, etc (and even to beget Himself). All of those things would be logical impossibilities, as I'm sure you'd agree.

The other option is to deny the Divinity of Christ. Doing so, however, would require discarding Bible teachings such as the following:

John 1:1, 14: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. * * * And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

John 8:58: Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

John 20:28-29: And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God. Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed [are] they that have not seen, and [yet] have believed.

So please tell us what you believe about Christ and why.

[Rev. M. Rodimer]

Re: Here Enters Jonathon Wilder

Those verses actually support the Trinity.

. . . or polytheism, my Brother.

I think he's viewing God, Jesus, and Holy Spirit as three distinct entities, rather than three "faces of one body", which is required in order to retain Christianity as monotheistic.

[James Hutchins]

Re: Here Enters Jonathon Wilder

No I am not, they are not God's church



One can follow the bible fully and still read other books. I am a lover of books and novels, I can seperate fact from fiction. Fantasy is not real, yet can be enjoyable to read.

Yeah, right Ok. Enough of your childish games. We can put up with feeble mindedness, we cannot put up with pompous annoying people who avoid being honest.

God sees the games you play and He, like us, is not amused. Not one iota.

[JonathonWilder]

Re: Here Enters Jonathon Wilder

Yeah, right Ok. Enough of your childish games. We can put up with feeble mindedness, we cannot put up with pompous annoying people who avoid being honest.

God sees the games you play and He, like us, is not amused. Not one iota.

What? I honestly don't know what your talking about, what games? How have I been as you say "pompous annoying" person "who avoid being honest"? I have been honest, I am a nontrinitarian christian, that is how I am identifying myself on this site.
---------------------------------

Also three common sense reason the Trinity doctine is false:

1. No Authority at Nicea
First, lets set this up with a brief history lesson. The Trinity was cautified nearly 300 years after Christ and the original Apostles had been killed off. Christians had been persecuted and had gone underground for much of this period to avoid being fed to lions--remember that? Even though Christianity was splintered and leaderless at this time, it was the one common thing that was found throughout the then declining Roman Empire.

Under that setting, the Nicean Council and the formation of the Trinity doctrine was ordered, led and ultimately approved by the Roman Emperor Constantine as part of his political campaign to unite factions of the failing Roman Empire under one state religion. Not a lot of people dispute this fact, but Trinity believers try to "spiritualize" this history by making Constantine into a holy man who was led by God to do what he did. While there is NO evidence for this, there are lots of reasons to believe that he was doing it for strictly political purposes. To this day there is a debate about whether or not Constantine was even baptized a member of the Church--which Christ said was necessary to be saved. (See John 3:5)

Think about it. A somewhat analogous equivalent today would be if the President of the United States gathered up all the Christian denominations of the day, had them mash-up their differing beliefs, and made a church from the consensus--a single religion for the whole country. And it would all be lead and approved by, not a religious leader, but a political leader.

There weren't even any of the Christian leaders or attendants that claimed to be the head authority of the church at the time. They all pretty much laid down any authority to the Emperor. And just like in politics, the beliefs of the majority were adopted--just like Constantine wanted. Of the two factions that had a disagreement about the character and nature of God and Christ, the majority opinion won the debate, and the losing belief was denounced as heresy. Ask yourself when, if ever, difficult religious doctrines are approved by the majority? Do you think we'd have 10 commandments if it was put up for a vote? I doubt it.


2. The Unknowable God
The Trinity Doctrine is impossible to understand, yet understanding our relationship to God is central in gaining salvation and understanding many other gospel doctrines. In fact the Bible tells us that our very eternal life depends on knowing HIM.

John 17: 3 - And this is life eternal, that they might KNOW thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Bottom line, the 3-in-one monster conjured up by the Trinity is an unknowable being. The Trinity is confusion, and that is NOT of God, but of the devil. (See 1 Cor. 14: 33)

Honest theologians and priests will even admit that there is no way to "understand" the Trinity. They will argue that the mortal mind cannot grasp it but only "comprehend" some of it, but even that is a stretch when the scripture states that our very eternal life depends on KNOWING Him.

I also believe that if there was one doctrine that we should fully understand, it SHOULD be the one about the character and nature of God, and that he'd be a mean son of a gun to give us no way of understanding this very basic and important aspect of the gospel.

If you know anything about the history of the Nicean council, you also know that the framers of this gibberish themselves actually knew that what they were outlining was incomprehensible. That leads you to another problematic question... If the theologian/writers of the Trinity KNEW it was beyond the understanding of men. Then, as MEN, how do they know that they got it right in the first place?

That leads us to the final part of the argument. The lack of spiritual evidence that this doctrine is accepted by God...


3. Lack of ANY Spiritual Confirmation or Manifestation
As I have argued, this is a key doctrine that is pivotal to understand which touches most if not all other gospel principals and doctrines, yet there is no evidence of spiritual manifestations, or any kind of confirmation by the spirit for the conclusion of Nicea.

Again, anyone who takes time to read and study the history of the Nicean Creed will be struck by the strictly political atmosphere of the whole event--that’s it.

If you take your examples from the Bible you will notice that most all of the major events in scripture were attended by angels, had manifestations of the Holy Spirit, or miraculous happenings of some sort or another. Yet at Nicea, none of the attendants reported angels appearing, cloven tongues of fire, or even a simple voice from heaven. Everything went off like a session of congress with everybody trying to please the Roman Emperor.

If this IS a pivotal doctrine, why wouldn't there be SOME record of a miraculous occurrence that could be pointed to as acceptance by God?

So there you have it. I think these common sense reasons are valid and very strong against the Trinity being a true doctrine. I believe that most Christian Churches of the day have accepted it simply because it is a tradition. If you can argue against any of this, I'd love to hear it.

[Deaner]

Re: Here Enters Jonathon Wilder

I would like thos here to refain from insults.

First lesson: Nobody here cares what you think Tonto.

[JonathonWilder]

Re: Here Enters Jonathon Wilder

First lesson: Nobody here cares what you think Tonto.

Still insults are petty and don't allow proper communication.

[Deaner]

Re: Here Enters Jonathon Wilder

Still insults are petty and don't allow proper communication.

Tell me you love me then red face.

[JonathonWilder]

Re: Here Enters Jonathon Wilder

Tell me you love me then red face.

I apoligize but... your posted make sense. 'then red face'?

[Deaner]

Re: Here Enters Jonathon Wilder

I apoligize but... your posted make sense. 'then red face'?

So you don't love me then?

[Mary Etheldreda]

Re: Here Enters Jonathon Wilder

Still insults are petty and don't allow proper communication.

Brother Deaner's communication is pretty clear in my opinion.

[Deaner]

Re: Here Enters Jonathon Wilder

I rather suspect he's sitting in magic underwear as we speak.

More like he's speaking on a magic spike.