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Default Divine omniscience is an un-Scriptural heresy. - 02-19-2011, 05:28 PM

Liberal Christians-lite who use their Bible as a paperweight like to ascribe to God many attributes that they think He should have, one of which is omniscience. I will now prove from Scripture that they are wrong yet again and that He is not omniscient.

The fall of man

The first evidence of God’s lack of omniscience comes early in the Bible:

Genesis 2:9: And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

Surely an omniscient Being could have seen the problem there. Since I had to have the old house childproofed for my children and the current house childproofed for my grandson, I could have seen the problem there.

When the inevitable happened, God had to ask what was going on:

Genesis 3:9-13: And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where [art] thou? And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I [was] naked; and I hid myself. And he said, Who told thee that thou [wast] naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat? And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest [to be] with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat. And the LORD God said unto the woman, What [is] this [that] thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat.

If you think that God was just asking rhetorical questions to get Adam and Eve to recognize their own sin, refer to my previous point.

The creation of woman

The presence of Eve in the story brings me to my second point.

Genesis 2:18-22: And the LORD God said, [It is] not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him. And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought [them] unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that [was] the name thereof. And Adam gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the air, and to every beast of the field; but for Adam there was not found an help meet for him. And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof; And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.

That is, God had to engage in trial and error to find the help meet for the man whom He had just gotten through creating. Once Help Meet 1.0 turned out to be unsuitable, He had to make Help Meet 2.0.

God tests us

How would an omniscient God know whether we have true faith in Him? Such a Being would just know, right? The God of the Bible does things a little differently:

Genesis 22:11-12: And the angel of the LORD called unto him out of heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham: and he said, Here [am] I. And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only [son] from me.

Deut. 13:1-3: If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder, And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them; Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the LORD your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.


That is, He actually has to test us. Not especially the words “now I know” in Genesis and “to know whether” in Deuteronomy, hardly consistent with Divine omniscience.

Selective omniscience

Some liberal almost-Christians try to get around the above by arguing that God is omniscient but turns off His omniscience when omniscience doesn't suit Him. I see two problems with that approach. First, since the Bible nowhere says any such thing, they are adding to Scripture. Second, whenever He wanted to know anything, He could simply switch His omniscience back on, so that idea is inconsistent with the Bible passages that I have quoted.


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Default Re: Divine omniscience is an un-Scriptural heresy. - 02-19-2011, 11:43 PM

Amen, Pastor.

Also, let's not forget that prior to Sodom and Gomorrah God comes down to the earth to see for Himself to see if the things He is hearing are true.

Genesis 18:20-21 And the LORD said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous;
I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know.
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Default Re: Divine omniscience is an un-Scriptural heresy. - 02-20-2011, 12:27 AM

Pastor Peters, I don't like this post of yours. Not one bit of it. No sir, don't like it.

I have never challenged a pastor on any point before, ever. But please don't tell me my God doesn't know EVERYTHING, including the future. Otherwise, how could Biblical prophecy be true? And we all know Biblical prophecy has been proven thousands of times.

Pastor Isaac, I don't mean disrespect, but I feel like your post violated me and violated God in the most profane of ways.

Forgive me for saying this, but I think you just made baby Jesus cry.
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Default Re: Divine omniscience is an un-Scriptural heresy. - 02-20-2011, 09:36 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brother Enoch View Post
please don't tell me my God doesn't know EVERYTHING, including the future.
If God knows everything, then He knew that Pastor Peters would post this fine sermon. Surely you don't think God would let a True Christian™ pastor preach something that was not true if He knew about it in advance. If that were true, you might as well chuck the whole Bible out the widow!

Anyway, Jesus is God, and, in Matthew 24:36, He says of the day of Judgment:

But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.


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Default Re: Divine omniscience is an un-Scriptural heresy. - 02-20-2011, 07:52 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brother Enoch View Post
Pastor Peters, I don't like this post of yours. Not one bit of it. No sir, don't like it.

I have never challenged a pastor on any point before, ever. But please don't tell me my God doesn't know EVERYTHING, including the future. Otherwise, how could Biblical prophecy be true? And we all know Biblical prophecy has been proven thousands of times.

Pastor Isaac, I don't mean disrespect, but I feel like your post violated me and violated God in the most profane of ways.

Forgive me for saying this, but I think you just made baby Jesus cry.
Brother Enoch, I too have concerns about what Pastor Peters may have been thinking. I would never contemplate contradicting him because he is a Pastor and I am merely a Bible Student. But maybe a gentle reminder would be OK? After all I know how rushed and harried his daily routine is ministering to all those heathen and unsaved souls.
I John 3:19-20 -- And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him. For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things
Job 28:24 -- For he looketh to the ends of the earth, and seeth under the whole heaven;
Job 37:16 -- Dost thou know the balancings of the clouds, the wondrous works of him which is perfect in knowledge?
Psalms 33:13-15 -- The Lord looketh from heaven; he beholdeth all the sons of men. From the place of his habitation he looketh upon all the inhabitants of the earth. He fashioneth their hearts alike; he considereth all their works.
Psalms 139:2-4 -- Thou knowest my downsitting and mine uprising, thou understandest my thought afar off. Thou compassest my path and my lying down, and art acquainted with all my ways. For there is not a word in my tongue, but, lo, O Lord, thou knowest it altogether.
Psalms 147:5 -- Great is our Lord, and of great power: his understanding is infinite.
Proverbs 15:3 -- The eyes of the Lord are in every place, beholding the evil and the good.
Isaiah 46:9-10 -- Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me, Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:
II Chronicles 16:9 --For the eyes of the Lord run to and fro throughout the whole earth, to shew himself strong in the behalf of them whose heart is perfect toward him. Herein thou hast done foolishly: therefore from henceforth thou shalt have wars.
Matthew 10:29-30 -- Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father. But the very hairs of your head are all numbered.
Acts 15:16-18 -- After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up: That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things. Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.
Ephesians 1:9-12 -- Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
Ephesians 3:6-9 -- That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel: Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power. Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ; And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
Colossians 1:25-26 -- Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:
Hebrews 4:13 -- Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.


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II Peter 1:4 -- Whereby are giuen vnto vs exceeding great and precious promises, that by these you might bee partakers of thy diuine nature, hauing escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
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Default Re: Divine omniscience is an un-Scriptural heresy. - 02-20-2011, 09:15 PM

[QUOTE=Bible Student;698421][...]Brother Bible Student,
You have quoted two distinct sets of verses, here are the first and these speak of The Lord knowing things that have happened or are happening.

Quote:
Job 28:24 -- For he looketh to the ends of the earth, and seeth under the whole heaven;
Psalms 33:13-15 -- The Lord looketh from heaven; he beholdeth all the sons of men. From the place of his habitation he looketh upon all the inhabitants of the earth. He fashioneth their hearts alike; he considereth all their works.
Psalms 139:2-4 -- Thou knowest my downsitting and mine uprising, thou understandest my thought afar off. Thou compassest my path and my lying down, and art acquainted with all my ways. For there is not a word in my tongue, but, lo, O Lord, thou knowest it altogether.
Proverbs 15:3 -- The eyes of the Lord are in every place, beholding the evil and the good.
II Chronicles 16:9 --For the eyes of the Lord run to and fro throughout the whole earth, to shew himself strong in the behalf of them whose heart is perfect toward him. Herein thou hast done foolishly: therefore from henceforth thou shalt have wars.
Matthew 10:29-30 -- Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father. But the very hairs of your head are all numbered.
Ephesians 3:6-9 -- That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel: Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power. Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ; And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
Hebrews 4:13 -- Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.
Then come those that may be read as indicating that He might know the future:
Quote:
1 John 3:19-20 -- And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him. For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things
This is the most difficult verse but once the explanation is accepted, all else flows:

John is here saying that The Lord knows (a) all things that have happened and are happening and all those things that are part of His Plan. The things He does not know are the ways of mankind in the future, for mankind has free will, without which Salvation is pointless. But He does know those things that He has planned, for nothing stops Him and His Power.

Quote:
Job 37:16 -- Dost thou know the balancings of the clouds, the wondrous works of him which is perfect in knowledge?
This merely says God knows how things work.
Quote:
Psalms 147:5 -- Great is our Lord, and of great power: his understanding is infinite.
We expect The Merciful Lord to be understanding.
Quote:
Isaiah 46:9-10 -- Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me, Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:
As I said – His Plan will be enacted. Nothing can stop it.
Quote:
Acts 15:16-18 -- After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up: That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things. Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.
Quote:
Ephesians 1:9-12 -- Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
Colossians 1:25-26 -- Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:
Again part of His Plan and knowledge of things past.

I feel that, other than for the workings of His Plan, God neither wants to know nor does know the future. On the grounds of free will alone, this must be so.





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Default Re: Divine omniscience is an un-Scriptural heresy. - 02-21-2011, 12:18 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by WWJDnow View Post
If God knows everything, then He knew that Pastor Peters would post this fine sermon. Surely you don't think God would let a True Christian™ pastor preach something that was not true if He knew about it in advance. If that were true, you might as well chuck the whole Bible out the widow!
Exactly! Amen, brother.

Our God is awesome and we are justified by our unwavering, unquestioning faith in Him as Romans 5 points out.



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Fall on us, and hide us from the face
of him that sitteth on the throne,
and from the wrath of the Lamb"
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Default Re: Divine omniscience is an un-Scriptural heresy. - 02-21-2011, 01:07 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ezekiel Bathfire View Post
I feel that, other than for the workings of His Plan, God neither wants to know nor does know the future. On the grounds of free will alone, this must be so.
Okay. But what about Esau?

Romans 9:
11(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth 12It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
13As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.



So God knew before Esau was even born that Esau was going to mess up the choices his freewill allowed him badly enough that God would hate him. Meaning that God knows what choices we'll make with our freewill beforehand, because God knows everything.


Or is this unconditional election and double predestination at work? God didn't know what Esau was going to do with his free will but it didn't matter anyway. No matter what Esau did, or how good a man he was, he was still toast.


I'm so confused.


Sometimes I almost envy my wife. She doesn't have to think about things. I tell her what to do and what to believe and she's happy and content. Sigh.
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Default Re: Divine omniscience is an un-Scriptural heresy. - 02-21-2011, 02:26 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brother Enoch View Post
Okay. But what about Esau?
A good example, Brother which was the subject of a sermon in 1743 (March 15th IIRC) by Pastor Robert Warrington. I will paraphrase his words,
"Many backsliders and those of the weakest Faith, who themselves may be predestined for the Fires of Satan or yet may be the holy fool, ask about Romans 9-11, which seems to some to be on the one hand saying that Esau was damned from the womb by The Almighty, yet the Almighty knew this and hated him anyway.

So we must read:

"Ephesians 1:9-12 -- Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

and then:
Colossians 1:25-26 -- Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:

These two verses combine to show that God's Plan involves the use of men as pawns in His Divine Mission. We see the papist anti-Christ, working his ways of evil, yet, from time to time his deeds fall in with the wishes of God.

Surely the Devil would not help the Almighty? Yet, it would appear so! The only explanation is that He chooses men before birth to be players in His Plan. Yet think! all that is required is that for a lifetime a man, so predestined, may do as he pleases, but on a certain day and at a certain time, the Holy Spirit compels him in his actions for the completion of the Grand Design; in this instance, the continuance of the Line of David."

(There was then a diversion into the fires of Hell and the treachery and fickleness of women, a few words on avoiding outsiders and Pastor Robert Warrington returned to his theme. )

"Why would God hate Esau? Is it not clear? It was God's Plan to have Esau carry the line forward yet, in his free will, Esau had married a Hittite woman, and thus would have polluted the line. The mixing of races is an abomination and an attempt to thwart God's Plan for a pure blood line to David and on to Jesus.

An earlier verse helps here. When the two sons were still in her womb the Lord spoke unto Rebekah words which would cause her to intervene in Isaac's blessing.
The LORD said to her, "Two nations are in your womb, and two peoples from within you will be separated; one people will be stronger than the other, and the older will serve the younger (Gen 25:23)."

Back on his deathbed, the blind Isaac was now in a dilemma too, as the eldest son, Esau had rights and should have inherited, whereas the correct thing would be to pass it on to Jacob. To save a family argument, God inspired Rebekah with the plan. "A simple yet irrevocable mistake."

Now consider this - Esau was hated because he attempted to thwart God's Plan. Esau's marriage was a surprise to God! Surprises make Him wrathful! (Proof He does not see the future.)

God does not like creating creatures that will burn for ever but there is an overwhelming necessity here."
Quote:
Or is this unconditional election and double predestination at work? God didn't know what Esau was going to do with his free will but it didn't matter anyway. No matter what Esau did, or how good a man he was, he was still toast.
Yes. God might have felt bad about sending Esau to the fires, but seeing his how Esau's actions turned out, He did not feel so bad at all.





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Default Re: Divine omniscience is an un-Scriptural heresy. - 02-21-2011, 03:18 AM

In the story of the Tower of Babel, God comes down to look at what He sees the Babylonians doing. He didn't already know.

Genesis 11:4-7 And they said, Go to, let us build us a city and a tower, whose top may reach unto heaven; and let us make us a name, lest we be scattered abroad upon the face of the whole earth.
And the LORD came down to see the city and the tower, which the children of men builded.
And the LORD said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do.
Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech.
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Default Re: Divine omniscience is an un-Scriptural heresy. - 02-21-2011, 03:58 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pastor William Nathaniel Sampson View Post
In the story of the Tower of Babel, God comes down to look at what He sees the Babylonians doing. He didn't know already.

Genesis 11:4-7 And they said, Go to, let us build us a city and a tower, whose top may reach unto heaven; and let us make us a name, lest we be scattered abroad upon the face of the whole earth.
And the LORD came down to see the city and the tower, which the children of men builded.
And the LORD said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do.
Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech.
Allo!! It is me! A person from Quebec!

Maybe it is my the English, which is not so good. The silly-boy languages can confusing me sometimes!

But the Bible stuffs you are very quoting makes me to think that God is, I cannot be sure how to be saying this in the English, insecure and paranoid? Maybe with some of the insane?

It must be being my not so great reading of the silly language of the silly ones!

Jesus should have written the Bible in the most Holy language, the French!! But I am believing He was knowing a lot that you silly english would more need the help.
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Default Re: Divine omniscience is an un-Scriptural heresy. - 02-21-2011, 04:03 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mary-Yves Lapierre View Post
Allo!! It is me! The person from Quebec.
I thought I smelled something. Don't you people ever bathe?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mary-Yves Lapierre View Post
Jesus should have written the Bible in the most Holy language, the French!! But I am believing He was know a lot that you silly english would more need the help.
French is a gutter language and Jesus can't be bothered with it. It's blasphemous for you to claim that it's "holy" in any way.


Who Will Jesus Damn?

Here is a partial list from just a few scripture verses:

Hypocrites (Matthew 24:51), The Unforgiving (Mark 11:26), Homosexuals (Romans 1:26, 27), Fornicators (Romans 1:29), The Wicked (Romans 1:29), The Covetous (Romans 1:29), The Malicious (Romans 1:29), The Envious (Romans 1:29), Murderers (Romans 1:29), The Deceitful (Romans 1:29), Backbiters (Romans 1:30), Haters of God (Romans 1:30), The Despiteful (Romans 1:30), The Proud (Romans 1:30), Boasters (Romans 1:30), Inventors of evil (Romans 1:30), Disobedient to parents (Romans 1:30), Covenant breakers (Romans 1:31), The Unmerciful (Romans 1:31), The Implacable (Romans 1:31), The Unrighteous (1Corinthians 6:9), Idolaters (1Corinthians 6:9), Adulterers (1Corinthians 6:9), The Effeminate (1Corinthians 6:9), Thieves (1Corinthians 6:10), Drunkards (1Corinthians 6:10), Reviler (1Corinthians 6:10), Extortioners (1Corinthians 6:10), The Fearful (Revelation 21:8), The Unbelieving (Revelation 21:8), The Abominable (Revelation 21:8), Whoremongers (Revelation 21:8), Sorcerers (Revelation 21:8), All Liars (Revelation 21:8)

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Default Re: Divine omniscience is an un-Scriptural heresy. - 02-21-2011, 06:36 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bible Student View Post
Brother Enoch, I too have concerns about what Pastor Peters may have been thinking. I would never contemplate contradicting him because he is a Pastor and I am merely a Bible Student. But maybe a gentle reminder would be OK? After all I know how rushed and harried his daily routine is ministering to all those heathen and unsaved souls.
Brother Bible Student, as a mere woman I would never dream of claiming any spiritual authority over you (1 Timothy 2:12), but I feel bound to remind you of some verses you may have forgotten. I hope the pastors realize I am acting in accordance with Biblical principles here and am emulating the actions of Priscilla when she helped Aquila correct the faith of Apollos (Acts 18:24-26).

I think in your haste you forgot about the scripture that indicates that God changes his mind. I know it's hard to accept, but surely an omniscient being would never need to change His mind, right?

"And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them."
Genesis 6:6-7

"And the LORD said unto Moses, I have seen this people, and, behold, it is a stiffnecked people: Now therefore let me alone, that my wrath may wax hot against them, and that I may consume them: and I will make of thee a great nation. And Moses besought the LORD his God, and said, LORD, why doth thy wrath wax hot against thy people, which thou hast brought forth out of the land of Egypt with great power, and with a mighty hand? Wherefore should the Egyptians speak, and say, For mischief did he bring them out, to slay them in the mountains, and to consume them from the face of the earth? Turn from thy fierce wrath, and repent of this evil against thy people. Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, thy servants, to whom thou swarest by thine own self, and saidst unto them, I will multiply your seed as the stars of heaven, and all this land that I have spoken of will I give unto your seed, and they shall inherit it for ever. And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people."
Exodus 32:9-14

"Unto a land flowing with milk and honey: for I will not go up in the midst of thee; for thou art a stiffnecked people: lest I consume thee in the way."
Exodus 33:3

Just a quick aside here. I'm sure glad the Lord didn't accompany the Israelites on their journey then, even He doesn't know what He could have been capable of!

"And Samuel came no more to see Saul until the day of his death: nevertheless Samuel mourned for Saul: and the LORD repented that he had made Saul king over Israel."
1 Samuel 15:35

Just another quick aside. If the Lord knew he'd be sorry for making Saul king, why would He do it in the first place if he was omniscient?

"Who can tell if God will turn and repent, and turn away from his fierce anger, that we perish not? And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not."
Jonah 3:9-10

Again, Brother, I hope you understand I am not trying to hold any spiritual authority over you here, just a genuine concern for your eternal soul.


"Whether of them twain did the will of his father? They say unto him, The first. Jesus saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you. For John came unto you in the way of righteousness, and ye believed him not: but the publicans and the harlots believed him: and ye, when ye had seen it, repented not afterward, that ye might believe him." Matthew 21:31-32

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Default Re: Divine omniscience is an un-Scriptural heresy. - 02-21-2011, 07:05 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lycia The Repentant View Post
surely an omniscient being would never need to change His mind, right?
First of all, I approach this with nothing but joy in my heart, praying... as we study His Holy Word ...that He bestow upon us the blessing of insight that we may better understand Scripture.
2 Timothy 3:16 "All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:"
Psalms 119:130 "The entrance of thy words giveth light; it giveth understanding unto the simple."
I am not as learned as many of my brethren but it seems to me the main problem is that omniscience needn't imply the inflexibility of predestination, necessarily. Can we, in all honesty, say His hands are tied this way and that He cannot change His mind? After all, Matthew 19:16 reads "...with God all things are possible."

Rather, I think we'd be better off saying our feeble minds cannot fully grasp what it might mean to be omniscient. What could it be like to live beyond space and time, holding the wholeness of creation as a single thought, past and present and future... as well as experiencing each moment, as it unfolds from past to present to future? In other words, I don't see why God cannot simultaneously be omniscient and not omniscient, as we understand the terms.

I fall to my knees in utter adoration before His Majesty, the Lord of the Universe, My God! I cannot comprehend His Greatness. He can do anything!



Revelations 6:16
"And said to the mountains and rocks,
Fall on us, and hide us from the face
of him that sitteth on the throne,
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Default Re: Divine omniscience is an un-Scriptural heresy. - 02-22-2011, 04:33 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lycia The Repentant View Post
Brother Bible Student, as a mere woman I would never dream of claiming any spiritual authority over you (1 Timothy 2:12), but I feel bound to remind you of some verses you may have forgotten. I hope the pastors realize I am acting in accordance with Biblical principles here and am emulating the actions of Priscilla when she helped Aquila correct the faith of Apollos (Acts 18:24-26).

I think in your haste you forgot about the scripture that indicates that God changes his mind. I know it's hard to accept, but surely an omniscient being would never need to change His mind, right?

"And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them."
Genesis 6:6-7

"And the LORD said unto Moses, I have seen this people, and, behold, it is a stiffnecked people: Now therefore let me alone, that my wrath may wax hot against them, and that I may consume them: and I will make of thee a great nation. And Moses besought the LORD his God, and said, LORD, why doth thy wrath wax hot against thy people, which thou hast brought forth out of the land of Egypt with great power, and with a mighty hand? Wherefore should the Egyptians speak, and say, For mischief did he bring them out, to slay them in the mountains, and to consume them from the face of the earth? Turn from thy fierce wrath, and repent of this evil against thy people. Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, thy servants, to whom thou swarest by thine own self, and saidst unto them, I will multiply your seed as the stars of heaven, and all this land that I have spoken of will I give unto your seed, and they shall inherit it for ever. And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people."
Exodus 32:9-14

"Unto a land flowing with milk and honey: for I will not go up in the midst of thee; for thou art a stiffnecked people: lest I consume thee in the way."
Exodus 33:3

Just a quick aside here. I'm sure glad the Lord didn't accompany the Israelites on their journey then, even He doesn't know what He could have been capable of!

"And Samuel came no more to see Saul until the day of his death: nevertheless Samuel mourned for Saul: and the LORD repented that he had made Saul king over Israel."
1 Samuel 15:35

Just another quick aside. If the Lord knew he'd be sorry for making Saul king, why would He do it in the first place if he was omniscient?

"Who can tell if God will turn and repent, and turn away from his fierce anger, that we perish not? And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not."
Jonah 3:9-10

Again, Brother, I hope you understand I am not trying to hold any spiritual authority over you here, just a genuine concern for your eternal soul.
The trap here is that God would have known that he would change his mind. How many times does a parent lay down to law to a child, knowing in advance that the child is really right, and then later reversing themselves? They knew they would say yes eventually even while saying no in the first place.


YiJC, BS

II Peter 1:4 -- Whereby are giuen vnto vs exceeding great and precious promises, that by these you might bee partakers of thy diuine nature, hauing escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
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Default Re: Divine omniscience is an un-Scriptural heresy. - 02-22-2011, 11:13 PM

Brother Bible Student, I'm with you on this. Surely God knows everything, and your Scripture quotations prove that.

Though I highly respect you, Pastor Isaac, I must disagree with you on several points.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pastor Isaac Peters View Post
Surely an omniscient Being could have seen the problem there. Since I had to have the old house childproofed for my children and the current house childproofed for my grandson, I could have seen the problem there.
Well, then obviously God somehow intended the Fall of Man to happen, didn't He? after all, God creates evil:

Isaiah 45:7:
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

If God creates evil, it is quite obvious that He could have also brought into motion the process of bringing the very first evil into the world.

Quote:
The presence of Eve in the story brings me to my second point.

Genesis 2:18-22: And the LORD God said, [It is] not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him. And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought [them] unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that [was] the name thereof. And Adam gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the air, and to every beast of the field; but for Adam there was not found an help meet for him. And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof; And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.

That is, God had to engage in trial and error to find the help meet for the man whom He had just gotten through creating. Once Help Meet 1.0 turned out to be unsuitable, He had to make Help Meet 2.0.
Well, the Bible doesn't explicitly say here that God created these animals as helpmeets, does It? God brings the animals to Adam to "see what he would call them," not to see if he would choose as a helpmeet from among them.

The Bible then says that Adam didn't find a helpmeet, not that God intended for him to have found one at that point. Adam simply didn't realize that God hadn't yet arrived at the point of creating a helpmeet.

Quote:
God tests us

That is, He actually has to test us. Not especially the words “now I know” in Genesis and “to know whether” in Deuteronomy, hardly consistent with Divine omniscience.
As we all know, Salvation™ is attained by faith and through works. God knew that Abraham had faith, but because of his deed of the attempted sacrifice of Isaac, his faith was officially "shown through his works." After all, faith has to be shown through works:

James 2:20-22:
But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

And as we see, this is how Abraham was justified. Therefore, when God said to him "now I know," he meant that Abraham's faith, now that it was shown through his works, was now officially accepted by God ("known" to Him).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pastor William Nathaniel Sampson View Post
Amen, Pastor.

Also, let's not forget that prior to Sodom and Gomorrah God comes down to the earth to see for Himself to see if the things He is hearing are true.

Genesis 18:20-21 And the LORD said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous;
I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know.
Pastor, you might notice that God already says that "the sin of Sodom and Gomorrah is very grievous," which shows that He already knows everything about it. The "if not" part simply says that the cities, like Nineveh in later days, still can change their ways, and that God will know it if they do. In short, this only supports His Omniscience!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pastor William Nathaniel Sampson View Post
In the story of the Tower of Babel, God comes down to look at what He sees the Babylonians doing. He didn't already know.

Genesis 11:4-7 And they said, Go to, let us build us a city and a tower, whose top may reach unto heaven; and let us make us a name, lest we be scattered abroad upon the face of the whole earth.
And the LORD came down to see the city and the tower, which the children of men builded.
And the LORD said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do.
Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech.
I'm sorry, Pastor, but I can't see where Scripture says that God "didn't know" that this tower was being built. It only says that He was coming down. Maybe He was just coming down for a nice stroll in His Creation, like He often did in the Garden of Eden. We don't know why He came down, only that He did. There is no reason to assume divine ignorance in this respect.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lycia The Repentant View Post
I think in your haste you forgot about the scripture that indicates that God changes his mind. I know it's hard to accept, but surely an omniscient being would never need to change His mind, right?
Well, I disagree with you on this. Of course God can change His Mind: being omnipotent, He can do everything. He can create a rock He cannot lift Himself, He can subsequently lift that rock, and He can change His Mind. The very definition of "omnipotence" requires that He can do all those things.

So, in short, God does change His Mind, and because of His Omniscience, He already knows He is going to change His Mind beforehand. So when God created man, He already knew that He would eventually repent that He had made him.

Quote:
Just another quick aside. If the Lord knew he'd be sorry for making Saul king, why would He do it in the first place if he was omniscient?
God's ways are mysterious, and it is not wise to question His Motives. Why did He do that? We can't possibly know with our tiny mortal minds.

Nevertheless, if I might throw a hunch, then maybe God did it to punish the Amalekites, or to punish the Israelites for asking a king in the first place. That might be possible.

In conclusion, I would like to refer again to Brother Bible Student's excellent quotations that prove beyond doubt that God is indeed omniscient. Praise the Lord!


Sweet Lord Jesus,
I want to pray for those who persecute me, my Lord.
Please, treat their children as you treated those of Egypt, when they upset you! (Psalm 135:8-9)
Dash their little children against the stones for their fathers iniquity! (Psalm 137:8-9)
Hit them on the cheek, and smash out their teeth! (Psalm 3:7)
Make their death and descent into Hell swift and terrible! (Psalm 55:15)
Scatter their broken bodies over the streets of their evil cities, like Benghazi, Amsterdam, Tokyo and Mecca! (Psalm 110:6)
Praised be Your Glorious Name™.

Amen.

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