I came, I saw, I felt ashamed

[SecretStash]

I am a Christian, having been so for many years. I've been through the tough questioning of life, my existence, and reality most people go through and I've come out the other side, through rational experience, with my faith truly established. I re-committed myself to Jesus Christ, having become more fully aware of the ramifications of such a decision, I've learned much since, and...

I am heartbroken. This place repulses me. The banner at the top, the attitude that seems to exude from... everything. It is the single greatest image of the Pharisees I have ever seen. Even the smiley I view here in the sidebar depicting what I percieve to be a wish for death (before salvation and hence for the damnation!) of individuals that God loves. That he created. That anyone should dare to wish them eternal damnation... may they answer for that.

I am ashamed to be thought of (as Christian) in the same context as those who persecuted Christ most grievously. For they thought themselves to be the very image of the Law, the height of perfection through their own actions. They were incredibly proud, and attacked Christ's willingness to reach out to the lost and dying (the sinners) which he did not drive away with a haughty spirit. May they and their followers, anyone that drives God's beloved creation away from him, answer for that.

Unsaved, unwelcome. I tell you that this is the utmost expression of pride, the ultimate nail in the coffin for those who might otherwise have lived in Christ, and a deadly grievance to the heart of the Lord. Those who follow it...


... shall answer for it.

I am deeply saddened and deeply ashamed. If I am wrong in this, I suspect a reply shall follow. But I likely shall not return to read it. Please, in the name of God, change. I will pray for you.

(tl;dr -- You're the Pharisees)

[James Hutchins]

Re: I came, I saw, I felt ashamed

Why all the hate friend?
If you hate us, it is because we follow the Bible. That leads to if you hate the Bible, you must hate Jesus. That makes me cry

[Gabriel Reproba]

Re: I came, I saw, I felt ashamed

Can you please explain how you think you are a Christian? All of Christ's life and instructions come from the Bible. I assume you believe that the Bible is the True and Unerring Word of God, yes? Then can you please point to a scriptural issue we have misquoted?

[SecretStash]

Re: I came, I saw, I felt ashamed

Why all the hate friend?
If you hate us, it is because we follow the Bible. That leads to if you hate the Bible, you must hate Jesus. That makes me cry

I hope to de-rail that train of logic by reaffirming that I do not hate you, and I never shall. I wish the best of God's blessings for you and all that you love. It is the un-Christlike image that breaks my heart. Jesus never told the unsaved that they were unwelcome. And called those that were the very image of being unwelcoming and/or unloving of them "snakes" and a "brood of vipers!".

I am not here to hate, for to hate is to murder in one's heart. I am here in the hopes that a message of light may yet shine through what seems to be a thick veil of pride. I'm entreating you, and begging, not demanding. Please, for the sake of the ones God wishes to save, don't do this :'(

You don't have anything to fear from me, rest assured. I do not hate. I just hope this doesn't fall on deaf ears.

[Rev. M. Rodimer]

Re: I came, I saw, I felt ashamed

What an interesting name! Of what do you have a "secret stash"? Pornography? Drugs?

I am a Christian . . .

I am deeply saddened and deeply ashamed. If I am wrong in this, I suspect a reply shall follow. But I likely shall not return to read it. Please, in the name of God, change. I will pray for you.

(tl;dr -- You're the Pharisees)

First, Pharisees were Jews. We are Christians.

Second, I would very much like to hear what it is you think we say or do that is not in accord with God's Word.

God commands us to remain separate from nonbelievers, does He not? Hence, "Unsaved Unwelcome".

God hates sin and sinners, does He not? Will He not resurrect all sinners from peaceful, unknowing death so He may burn them alive for all eternity in His Lake of Fire (Rev. 20-21)? -->

Is it not our Christian duty to tell people what they are setting themselves up for?

Do you believe that Jesus forgives all sin, past, present, and future?

Jesus forgives past sins, it is true. What did He say to the adulterous woman who was to be stoned? "Go thou, and SIN NO MORE." Not, "Sin just a little." Not, "Stop being an adulterous whore, but otherwise continue to live your life as you have." Not, "Only commit little sins."

"SIN NO MORE."

Those who become Christian and then continue to sin are not Saved, and will be cast into Hell with all the nonbelievers, homosexuals, adulterers, and other sinners. The Bible makes it clear that those who are Christian are, in fact, unable to sin.

1 John 3:6

Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

Tell me, have you read the Bible, or are you just a "cultural Christian"?

Do you think that the Bible is "metaphorical"? What part of the Bible tells you that you can ignore what it says in favor of your own imaginings, and your own flawed human "morality" instead of God's justice?

I might think it barbaric to stone homosexuals to death. I might think it cruel to execute a woman for having sex with someone not her fiancee. I might even think it downright evil to kill pregnant women and all the male children of a tribe. But God says these things are justice.

Do you see how your flawed, culturally-relativistic "morality" ignores God's Justice?

[Gabriel Reproba]

Re: I came, I saw, I felt ashamed

FIRST you say:

Jesus never told the unsaved that they were unwelcome.

THEN you say:

And called those that were the very image of being unwelcoming and/or unloving of them "snakes" and a "brood of vipers!".

You think that Jesus was being welcoming when he called those unsaved people "snakes" and a "brood of vipers?" How welcoming was he to those people? Hint: He WASN'T being welcoming! In fact, he follows that up by saying something like, "How will you escape being condemned to hell?"

Don't insult JESUS by claiming he didn't insult anyone and then QUOTE him INSULTING people!

[James Hutchins]

Re: I came, I saw, I felt ashamed

I hope to de-rail that train of logic by reaffirming that I do not hate you, and I never shall. I wish the best of God's blessings for you and all that you love. It is the un-Christlike image that breaks my heart. Jesus never told the unsaved that they were unwelcome. And called those that were the very image of being unwelcoming and/or unloving of them "snakes" and a "brood of vipers!".

I am not here to hate, for to hate is to murder in one's heart. I am here in the hopes that a message of light may yet shine through what seems to be a thick veil of pride. I'm entreating you, and begging, not demanding. Please, for the sake of the ones God wishes to save, don't do this :'(

You don't have anything to fear from me, rest assured. I do not hate. I just hope this doesn't fall on deaf ears.

Can you please explain how you think you are a Christian? All of Christ's life and instructions come from the Bible. I assume you believe that the Bible is the True and Unerring Word of God, yes? Then can you please point to a scriptural issue we have misquoted?

See Gabes excellent comment.

I fear no man as God is by my side.

[Rev. M. Rodimer]

Re: I came, I saw, I felt ashamed

I hope to de-rail that train of logic by reaffirming that I do not hate you, and I never shall. I wish the best of God's blessings for you and all that you love. It is the un-Christlike image that breaks my heart. Jesus never told the unsaved that they were unwelcome. And called those that were the very image of being unwelcoming and/or unloving of them "snakes" and a "brood of vipers!".

You never got past the Gospels, did you, dear?

You do realize that Jesus will return and slaughter 1/3 of all mankind, right? You do comprehend that He will cast the vast majority of humanity into the furnace to be burned alive for all eternity, don't you?

Jesus also called other people names. For example, He referred to Greeks and/or Canaanites as "dogs". Is that nice? That seems rather racist to me. You should have seen that in your repeated reading of the only four books of the Bible you could be bothered to read.

[Levi Jones]

Re: I came, I saw, I felt ashamed

I am a Christian, having been so for many years. I've been through the tough questioning of life, my existence, and reality most people go through and I've come out the other side, through rational experience, with my faith truly established. I re-committed myself to Jesus Christ, having become more fully aware of the ramifications of such a decision, I've learned much since, and...

I am heartbroken. This place repulses me. The banner at the top, the attitude that seems to exude from... everything. It is the single greatest image of the Pharisees I have ever seen. Even the smiley I view here in the sidebar depicting what I percieve to be a wish for death (before salvation and hence for the damnation!) of individuals that God loves. That he created. That anyone should dare to wish them eternal damnation... may they answer for that.

Maybe you missed the part where Jesus teaches people how to preach.

Matthew 10:14-15 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet.
Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.

What happened to Sodom and Gomorrha? That's right. God rained fire and brimstone on it.

Genesis 19:24-25 Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven;
And he overthrew those cities, and all the plain, and all the inhabitants of the cities, and that which grew upon the ground.

Kinda like this.

I am ashamed to be thought of (as Christian) in the same context as those who persecuted Christ most grievously. For they thought themselves to be the very image of the Law, the height of perfection through their own actions. They were incredibly proud, and attacked Christ's willingness to reach out to the lost and dying (the sinners) which he did not drive away with a haughty spirit. May they and their followers, anyone that drives God's beloved creation away from him, answer for that.

Pharisees like Paul of Tarsus?

Acts 23:6 But when Paul perceived that the one part were Sadducees, and the other Pharisees, he cried out in the council, Men [and] brethren, I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee: of the hope and resurrection of the dead I am called in question.

I am deeply saddened and deeply ashamed. If I am wrong in this, I suspect a reply shall follow. But I likely shall not return to read it. Please, in the name of God, change. I will pray for you.

In that case, I don't know why I'm bothering to respond to you if you are just going to hit and run.

[Dillon]

Re: I came, I saw, I felt ashamed

I just hope this doesn't fall on deaf ears.

First, welcome to the forum. You, I suspect, are what we like to call a "fluffy-bunny" Christian. That is to say, a "Christian" who likes to view the Bible with rose-tinted glasses and ignore the parts that are inconvenient. I want to have an actual, logical discussion with you so I guarantee you I will not attack you but rather show you the Truth™ in the kindest of ways I can. You are mistaken, my friend, and I intend to show you why.

You ascribed our actions to those of the pharisees.' Perhaps you think we are only presenting ourselves to be religious, but are actually unloving and unmerciful people. The truth is, we want everyone to be saved. Regardless of the smileys you mentioned (are we not allowed to poke fun at the rejection of our Lord? I will have you note that no specific person is depicted in any of those smileys you might find offensive. We are demeaning sin itself; we still want everyone that can be saved to be saved), we are as merciful and loving as the Bible allows us to be. No more, no less. For our goal is to follow the KJV 1611 Bible, the complete and perfect word of our Lord, to the letter, lest we fall to err. My friend you are not bringing God's word for which we want to persecute you as was the case with the Pharisees, but rather the contrary: you came here to persecute US for upholding God's word. And do not forget, you came to do this as an uninvited guest.

Matthew 5:10 "Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven."

You also mentioned the "unsaved unwelcome" mantra. What is wrong with this statement? This very concept (while also having many practical applications) is taught in the very Bible! God wants His Church to be clean and pure Ephesians 5:25-27. The Church is also not for sinners 1 Corinthians 5:5. 2 Corinthians 6:14-18 also has quite a bit to say about the matter. My friend, sadly you would not even be allowed in the Church Romans 16:17 "Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them."

Regarding this topic, I will finally leave you with this, which I think says it all: 1 Corinthians 5:8–13 "Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth. I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators: Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world. But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolator, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat. For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within? But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person."

I just hope this doesn't fall on deaf ears, until it is too late.

[GOD=life]

Re: I came, I saw, I felt ashamed

I am deeply saddened and deeply ashamed.

As apparently you should be. Your whole post is a rant about what you think, what you feel, how you judge us, how you persecute us, etc. Christianity is not about YOURSELF, it's about GOD. I get the strong impression that you haven't made a FULL commitment to God yet.

If I am wrong in this, I suspect a reply shall follow.

You can expect Christians on a Christian forum to do their best to help a misguided soul that can still be saved, yet. We know what it's like to be persecuted, so you're in excellent company.

But I likely shall not return to read it.

That's really rude

Please, in the name of God, change.

I don't follow. Change in what way? Become atheists? No thanks.

I will pray for you.

Thank you, I guess. We will pray for you as well. Why not pray with us instead?

[ReasonableGuy]

Re: I came, I saw, I felt ashamed

What an interesting name! Of what do you have a "secret stash"? Pornography? Drugs?

Mark 12: 30-31

30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.
31 And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.

God hates sin and sinners, does He not? Will He not resurrect all sinners from peaceful, unknowing death so He may burn them alive for all eternity in His Lake of Fire (Rev. 20-21)? -->

I think we all agree that as it is said in Jeremiah 44:4, that God does hate sin. That is very true...he despises it. BUT, God does not hate the sinner. As said in Romans 5:6-8:

6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.
8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

Christ died for the sinners! He does not hate them, and neither should Christians who should "love one another as I love you." (John 15:13)


I would go on and prove some of your other points wrong, but I think I have spent enough of my time on this.

By the way, I am a 23 year old Christian who has been raised in a real church his entire life, but who has also studied the bible in quite a bit of depth on his on...as well as other religions.

[Cranky Old Man]

Re: I came, I saw, I felt ashamed

There is none other commandment greater than these.

Do you have scripture to prove that, or did you just make that up? I assume you are aware changing the Bible is not allowed: Deuteronomy 4:2 "Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you."

Christ died for the sinners! He does not hate them

Don't talk nonsense!

People God hates:

• Proverbs 6:16-19 "These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him: A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief, A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren."
• Deuteronomy 12:31 "You must not worship the LORD your God in their way, because in worshiping their gods, they do all kinds of detestable things the LORD hates. They even burn their sons and daughters in the fire as sacrifices to their gods."
• Isaiah 45:7 "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things."
  

God kills those who do not believe in Him and then sends them to hell:

• 2nd Chronicles 15:13 "That whosoever would not seek the LORD God of Israel should be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman."
• Mark 16:16 "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned."
• Revelation 21:8 "But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death."
• John 15:6 "If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned."

[ReasonableGuy]

Re: I came, I saw, I felt ashamed

Do you have scripture to prove that, or did you just make that up? I assume you are aware changing the Bible is not allowed: Deuteronomy 4:2 "Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you."

You got me there...I made it up

[ReasonableGuy]

Re: I came, I saw, I felt ashamed

• Proverbs 6:16-19 "These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him: A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief, A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren."
• Deuteronomy 12:31 "You must not worship the LORD your God in their way, because in worshiping their gods, they do all kinds of detestable things the LORD hates. They even burn their sons and daughters in the fire as sacrifices to their gods."
• Isaiah 45:7 "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things."
  

People are...THINGS???

Things = Actions (also known as sin). Good try though.