[Pastar James]

Re: The Sun: Millions of miles away?

If the Sun is a burning piece of coal about 10 miles wide, how can we see so much of it if it were as far as 5000 KM away? Someone from, say, Germany, cannot even see America!

No no, I put forward the idea it is actually 5KM above the earth.

[Ezekiel Bathfire]

Re: The Sun: Millions of miles away?

5000 Kilometers? Is that about 500 miles? If so, I think you could something that big from 500 miles.

[MarkHenry]

Re: The Sun: Millions of miles away?

I found this wonderfull analogy about the world and the bible, wich is about the same what i believe. An omnipotent god and a pretty average human. Here goes: (by the way, i did not write this, do not ask or comment on this, just read it and enjoy it. It does not contradict your bible.)
__________________________________________________ ___________

Pretend you're the Lord talking to Moses during the writing of the Pentateuch. Moses asks, "What is the history of how the world came to be?"

The Lord says, "Well, in the beginning there weren't any subatomic particles with which to form atoms. Everything was in a state of quantum flux, with there being no clear distinction between time and space, nor matter and energy. If you want to think of it in logistical terms, there was neither true nor false in the physical measurements of anything. It was the true incarnation of the essence of chaos on the physical plane."

Moses, with the vast advantage of education he had from being an adopted prince of Egypt with access to the Pharaoh's library and scribes goes, "Huh?"

The Lord is already sensing that this is going to be a long (earth) day. But it's still early, and he's still feeling patient, so he says, "Uh, well, there came a point where the chaos separated into two basic vectors at rights angles to each other. One was the time-space continuum, and the other was matter-energy matrix."

Moses says, "Huh?'

The Lord says, "Well, it's like, time-space is like... you know... all that space you move through, and the time that passes, and matter-energy is like the stuff you and the world are made of, and the power that drives it through the time-space continuum".

Moses pauses for a long thing-about-it, and say, "I'm sorry, I still don't get you".

The Lord say, "Look, you see all that space around you? Look up? You see all that distance between you and the sun, or between you and the stars? That's space. And you see that sand you're walking on? That's matter. Time-and-Space are interchangeable, and matter-and-energy are interchangeable. The rate of interchange for matter-energy is e=mc^2, and the rate of change for time-space is s=ct, but it boils down to a hyperspace with a vector of time-space in one direction, and at right-angles is another vector in hyperspace of matter-energy, and between them they map out states... capiche?"

Moses thoughtfully pulls on his beard, and says, "Back up to that part about when I look to the sun and stars, then that space is one thing, but how the solid I walk on is another, and how those two things are the two fundamental things of stuff".

The Lord says, "Okay... I've back up. What do you want to know?"

Moses says, "Well, I look up towards the sun and the stars which is like looking towards heaven, right? And the stuff I walk on is earth, right?"

Lord says, "Yeah... well... if you want to call heaven that which is not on earth, yeah, but technically, where I am, I'm not on earth because I'm outside of your dimension, which is how I can be everywhere without you ever seeing me, and..."

Moses: "So there's the earth, and there's the stuff that's *not* earth, and those are the two things that the universe started with?"

Lord: "Uhh, yeah, but..."

Moses: "And what's not earth is what I see when I look up towards the sun and the stars, which is towards heaven, so heaven is not earth, right?"

Lord: "Yeah, but..."

Moses: "So, in the beginning, first there was heaven and earth, right?"

Lord: "Uhh, well, technically... it kinda depends on how finicky one wants to get about defining those terms, but... what are you dong?"

Moses: "It's come to me, and I'm writing. Listen to this... 'In the beginning God made Heaven and Earth".

Lord: "Okayy... that's concise. Thanks for the reference. How do you know it was an act of will on My part that triggered the chaos to haul back into those orthogonal vectors?"

Moses: "I presumed so. After that tongue-lashing you gave me at the burning bush I'm just going to presume so, but I still have to write it down because people can be such chowder-heads that they just won't listen unless I include Your name since You're the reason we're all out here in the wilderness."

Lord: "Yeah... okay... but... you do understand that at the burning bush I was just trying to get your attention. You're vastly better educated by virtue of access to the Pharaoh's libraries and scribes that are most of these goat-herders scrubbing their butts with sand from their left hand, yet you weren't listening and you were asking stupid questions so I had to holler at you, but are you now at a level of togetherness to see that if you put it that way, someday somebody's going to ask where I came from."

Moses: "So You came along after the beginning?"

Lord: "No... I'm outside of your time-space continuum... it's hard to explain... ever studied that thing the Hellenics do called geometry, only cast it into an n-dimensional hyperspace?"

Moses: "No... and your point is?"

Lord: "Nothing.... never mind. In any case, I think your use of 'heaven' to describe time-space and your use of 'earth' as matter-energy is making it too much like there's just space and matter at the beginning, with insufficient reference to time and energy."

Moses: "Why?"

Lord: "Because... because I like you more than Angels because I know you're potentially the hottest species... IF you train yourselves. Ever notice how a trained gymnast can outperform even a Gibbon in the trees? Moses... wake up!"

Moses: "Sorry. Can we carry on tomorrow?"

And it went on like that day-after-day through the whole process of getting the word of the Lord into print with Moses as the scribe.

Ever notice the interesting part about how it says first were created the fish and birds, but the mammals came later, and it's didn't make sense until we learned that birds are just a lonely survivng branch of dinosaur?

I can already hear it.

Lord: "It all came from the oceans. Arthropods were the first to get out, and they became dragonflies the size of crows. And it was incredible how much life and how many varieties there were. Some of the vertebrates made it onto land with their shelled eggs, and they became reptiles, and then one branch of reptile became a warm-blooded bipedal thing called a dinosaur and..."

Moses: "Dinosaur?"

Lord: "They're like big giant birds without feathers."

Moses: "Ahh... okay so... I've been short-handing while you talked, editorializing a bit for the sake of the readers, and I have 'Let the waters bring forth swarms of living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the firmament of the heavens. So God created the great sea monsters and every living creature that moves, with which the waters swarm, according to their kinds, and every winged bird according to its kind."

Lord: " You're very poetic."

Moses: "People like poetry".

Lord: "No doubt. Anyway, next came the mammals..."

etc. etc.

As for the issue of Joshua 10:12-14, saying that the sun travels around the earth... actually... if you do the math as astronomer, you'll know that it makes no difference at predicting the positions of heavenly orbs what point of reference you use as the center...

You just need to fix a center-point and then do your calculations from there. Ever read Ptolemy's mathematical description of the ellipses to describe the positions of the planets? It's not how it really happens, but in fact his calculations work.

So now lets image Joshua's time and what his people were able to interpret of the world from what they could see.

Given that on a mathematical level it doesn't really matter whether you set the sun or the earth as the center of the grid as long as all subsequent equations follow, and given how the point was not to explain astronomy to the people, rather to get a spiritual message through...

... Then if you are someone from one of those modern states where one third of the people can't say how many times the world goes around the sun in one year, do you really think Joshua was doing a wrong to dumb-down the astronomy a bit in order to get a spiritual message through to the people of *his* age?!?

Let me ask you a question: What *spiritual* truths in the Bible have been proven to be false?

It is, after all, fundamentally a spiritual - and not scientific - document.

I throw it back to you! The Bible is not a science text. It's a spiritual document using references to real-world phenomena if-and-only-when said references help to communicate the message.

What does the Bible say that has been proven to be *spiritually* false?

[Cranky Old Man]

Re: The Sun: Millions of miles away?

tl;dr

Stop wasting your time on false scripture and start looking at the only truth available, the Holy Bible.

[James Hutchins]

Re: The Sun: Millions of miles away?

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> tl:dr<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Mark, I suggest not drinking alcohol before or during posts.

[MarkHenry]

Re: The Sun: Millions of miles away?

I found this wonderfull analogy about the world and the bible, wich is about the same what i believe. An omnipotent god and a pretty average human. Here goes: (by the way, i did not write this, do not ask or comment on this, just read it and enjoy it. It does not contradict your bible.)
__________________________________________________ ___________

Pretend you're the Lord talking to Moses during the writing of the Pentateuch. Moses asks, "What is the history of how the world came to be?"

The Lord says, "Well, in the beginning there weren't any subatomic particles with which to form atoms. Everything was in a state of quantum flux, with there being no clear distinction between time and space, nor matter and energy. If you want to think of it in logistical terms, there was neither true nor false in the physical measurements of anything. It was the true incarnation of the essence of chaos on the physical plane."

Moses, with the vast advantage of education he had from being an adopted prince of Egypt with access to the Pharaoh's library and scribes goes, "Huh?"

The Lord is already sensing that this is going to be a long (earth) day. But it's still early, and he's still feeling patient, so he says, "Uh, well, there came a point where the chaos separated into two basic vectors at rights angles to each other. One was the time-space continuum, and the other was matter-energy matrix."

Moses says, "Huh?'

The Lord says, "Well, it's like, time-space is like... you know... all that space you move through, and the time that passes, and matter-energy is like the stuff you and the world are made of, and the power that drives it through the time-space continuum".

Moses pauses for a long thing-about-it, and say, "I'm sorry, I still don't get you".

The Lord say, "Look, you see all that space around you? Look up? You see all that distance between you and the sun, or between you and the stars? That's space. And you see that sand you're walking on? That's matter. Time-and-Space are interchangeable, and matter-and-energy are interchangeable. The rate of interchange for matter-energy is e=mc^2, and the rate of change for time-space is s=ct, but it boils down to a hyperspace with a vector of time-space in one direction, and at right-angles is another vector in hyperspace of matter-energy, and between them they map out states... capiche?"

Moses thoughtfully pulls on his beard, and says, "Back up to that part about when I look to the sun and stars, then that space is one thing, but how the solid I walk on is another, and how those two things are the two fundamental things of stuff".

The Lord says, "Okay... I've back up. What do you want to know?"

Moses says, "Well, I look up towards the sun and the stars which is like looking towards heaven, right? And the stuff I walk on is earth, right?"

Lord says, "Yeah... well... if you want to call heaven that which is not on earth, yeah, but technically, where I am, I'm not on earth because I'm outside of your dimension, which is how I can be everywhere without you ever seeing me, and..."

Moses: "So there's the earth, and there's the stuff that's *not* earth, and those are the two things that the universe started with?"

Lord: "Uhh, yeah, but..."

Moses: "And what's not earth is what I see when I look up towards the sun and the stars, which is towards heaven, so heaven is not earth, right?"

Lord: "Yeah, but..."

Moses: "So, in the beginning, first there was heaven and earth, right?"

Lord: "Uhh, well, technically... it kinda depends on how finicky one wants to get about defining those terms, but... what are you dong?"

Moses: "It's come to me, and I'm writing. Listen to this... 'In the beginning God made Heaven and Earth".

Lord: "Okayy... that's concise. Thanks for the reference. How do you know it was an act of will on My part that triggered the chaos to haul back into those orthogonal vectors?"

Moses: "I presumed so. After that tongue-lashing you gave me at the burning bush I'm just going to presume so, but I still have to write it down because people can be such chowder-heads that they just won't listen unless I include Your name since You're the reason we're all out here in the wilderness."

Lord: "Yeah... okay... but... you do understand that at the burning bush I was just trying to get your attention. You're vastly better educated by virtue of access to the Pharaoh's libraries and scribes that are most of these goat-herders scrubbing their butts with sand from their left hand, yet you weren't listening and you were asking stupid questions so I had to holler at you, but are you now at a level of togetherness to see that if you put it that way, someday somebody's going to ask where I came from."

Moses: "So You came along after the beginning?"

Lord: "No... I'm outside of your time-space continuum... it's hard to explain... ever studied that thing the Hellenics do called geometry, only cast it into an n-dimensional hyperspace?"

Moses: "No... and your point is?"

Lord: "Nothing.... never mind. In any case, I think your use of 'heaven' to describe time-space and your use of 'earth' as matter-energy is making it too much like there's just space and matter at the beginning, with insufficient reference to time and energy."

Moses: "Why?"

Lord: "Because... because I like you more than Angels because I know you're potentially the hottest species... IF you train yourselves. Ever notice how a trained gymnast can outperform even a Gibbon in the trees? Moses... wake up!"

Moses: "Sorry. Can we carry on tomorrow?"

And it went on like that day-after-day through the whole process of getting the word of the Lord into print with Moses as the scribe.

Ever notice the interesting part about how it says first were created the fish and birds, but the mammals came later, and it's didn't make sense until we learned that birds are just a lonely survivng branch of dinosaur?

I can already hear it.

Lord: "It all came from the oceans. Arthropods were the first to get out, and they became dragonflies the size of crows. And it was incredible how much life and how many varieties there were. Some of the vertebrates made it onto land with their shelled eggs, and they became reptiles, and then one branch of reptile became a warm-blooded bipedal thing called a dinosaur and..."

Moses: "Dinosaur?"

Lord: "They're like big giant birds without feathers."

Moses: "Ahh... okay so... I've been short-handing while you talked, editorializing a bit for the sake of the readers, and I have 'Let the waters bring forth swarms of living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the firmament of the heavens. So God created the great sea monsters and every living creature that moves, with which the waters swarm, according to their kinds, and every winged bird according to its kind."

Lord: " You're very poetic."

Moses: "People like poetry".

Lord: "No doubt. Anyway, next came the mammals..."

etc. etc.

As for the issue of Joshua 10:12-14, saying that the sun travels around the earth... actually... if you do the math as astronomer, you'll know that it makes no difference at predicting the positions of heavenly orbs what point of reference you use as the center...

You just need to fix a center-point and then do your calculations from there. Ever read Ptolemy's mathematical description of the ellipses to describe the positions of the planets? It's not how it really happens, but in fact his calculations work.

So now lets image Joshua's time and what his people were able to interpret of the world from what they could see.

Given that on a mathematical level it doesn't really matter whether you set the sun or the earth as the center of the grid as long as all subsequent equations follow, and given how the point was not to explain astronomy to the people, rather to get a spiritual message through...

... Then if you are someone from one of those modern states where one third of the people can't say how many times the world goes around the sun in one year, do you really think Joshua was doing a wrong to dumb-down the astronomy a bit in order to get a spiritual message through to the people of *his* age?!?

Let me ask you a question: What *spiritual* truths in the Bible have been proven to be false?

It is, after all, fundamentally a spiritual - and not scientific - document.

I throw it back to you! The Bible is not a science text. It's a spiritual document using references to real-world phenomena if-and-only-when said references help to communicate the message.

What does the Bible say that has been proven to be *spiritually* false?

[Cranky Old Man]

Re: The Sun: Millions of miles away?

tl;dr

I am getting cramp in my hand from scrolling through your senseless babbling.

[Ezekiel Bathfire]

Re: The Sun: Millions of miles away?

I found this wonderfull analogy about the world and the bible, wich is about the same what i believe[…]
Lord: "Okayy... that's concise. Thanks for the reference. How do you know it was an act of will on My part that triggered the chaos to haul back into those orthogonal vectors?" […]

I don’t think The Lord got a proper answer to this. Can you look at the website where you stole it and see if it’s there?

Oh yes, and the other thing is, Mrs. Bathfire says,

“As They were up there all day (Moses and God) what did They have to eat?”

She thinks it would be nice if she could cook the same thing for The True Christian Ladies’ Meeting. If you could provide any other recipes, I’m sure she would be grateful.

PS, please don’t use these European metric things in the recipes.

[Buford T Scoggins]

Re: The Sun: Millions of miles away?

The idea of the sun being millions of miles away is ridiculous. Surely everyone has heard of the Phoenix, a bird named after a city in Arizona. The Phoenix flew so high that it got burned by the sun - now how is a bird gonna fly millions of miles?

The sun, of course, rotates around the Earth. People have known that ever since the days of Adam and Eve, but liberals and their junk scientists keep insisting that the Earth rotates around the sun. Just like with the global warming myth, it's useless to try to reason with these people - they want to believe NASA, instead of The Bible.

The longest annular solar eclipse of the millennium occurred in Africa and Asia today. This is a true sign that the Apocalypse is coming soon, and that we True Christians will be raptured, but again the junk scientists have come up with some ridiculous explanation about the moon blotting out the sun. I hope all you Christians out there have your kids in home schooling, so that they don't get exposed to ridiculous theories like this. Next thing you know, the "scientists" will be claiming billions of years old, and that we evolved from monkeys!



Take a look at these eclipse photos taken in The Maldives, a Muslim country that fortunately will soon be underwater (Noah style) thanks to God's wrath (but nothing to do with global warming). In fact, the photos prove that global warming is a fraud, since The Lord blotting out the sun will surely cause global cooling, which is happening now. Expect a new ice age soon.

The Rapture is coming soon. Hallelujah!

Brother Buford

[PD1982]

Re: The Sun: Millions of miles away?

I look forward to Paster Billy's response to Mark's calculations.


It would be ridiculous to believe that we would have to send satellites beyond the Sun into geosynchronous orbit, even medium earth orbit satellites would have to travel beyond the Sun if your calculations were correct.

I don't believe you can deny the use of Satellites, If you have a mobile phone, GPS receiver, Satellite Internet or Television service the chances are that the satellite resides at either;

Medium Earth Orbit (MEO) (around 12,000 Miles above sea level) or
Geostationary Orbit (about 22,000 Miles about sea level)


If the Sun was around 560 miles away, based on the fact that MEO satellites at a distance of 12,000 Miles away can take up to 24 hours to complete orbit the Earth.

Then...

(This is where it gets a bit messy with your predictions. If the Sun where the size you believe it to be, does that mean that the Sun in fact orbits the Earth? )

If the Sun orbited the Earth at the distance you believe it to be it would be traveling tremendously fast. Days would consist of minutes rather than hours.

I believe if my Math is correct you would be looking at around 514 orbits of the Sun per 24 hours if it where at 560miles away.

I guess that means we'd be celebrating new year quite a bit...

[PD1982]

Re: The Sun: Millions of miles away?

Sorry a bit of bad English here

I don't believe you can deny the use of Satellites, If you have a mobile phone, GPS receiver, Satellite Internet or Television service the chances are that the satellite resides at either;

I mean;

I don't believe you can deny the use of Satellites, If you have a mobile phone, GPS receiver, Satellite Internet or Television service the chances are that these utilise a satellite placed at either;



Sorry.

[Cranky Old Man]

Re: The Sun: Millions of miles away?

Medium Earth Orbit (MEO) (around 12,000 Miles above sea level) or Geostationary Orbit (about 22,000 Miles about sea level)

You believe that hogwash NASA uses to steal our money? I suppose you also believe their Moon landing story even though there are huge piles of evidence they didn't go there?

does that mean that the Sun in fact orbits the Earth?

Duh!

I believe if my Math is correct

Your fuzzy math isn't correct. Your parents didn't properly school you.

Genesis 1:16 "And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also."

[Buford T Scoggins]

Re: The Sun: Millions of miles away?

You believe that hogwash NASA uses to steal our money? I suppose you also believe their Moon landing story even though there are huge piles of evidence they didn't go there?

Amen, Brother Cranky. That whole "Apollo moon mission" hoax was filmed in the same movie studio where Armageddon (love the name) was produced, starring Bruce Willis. Personally, I thought the movie looked even more realistic than those phony "moon landing" photos we saw back in 1969. Really, that whole Apollo hoax was so amateurish I don't know how anyone could believe it. NASA needs to hire a better special effects director.

We need to stop wasting money on that phony space program and start spending it right here on Earth for something useful, like bombing Haiti.

yours in Christ,
Brother Buford

[Pastor Billy-Reuben]

Re: The Sun: Millions of miles away?

The sun contains 98% of the mass of our solar system. I provide the math, if you can't understand don't embarace yourself and don't comment on it in such and uneducated way. Do the math, its correct. Waiting on pastor billy-R's comment on it though

The math looks good, but the entire argument hangs on assumptions as to how stars are formed and how they are powered, which I don't accept and for which no effort was made to establish. It was just asserted it as if it were fact. The conclusions follow from the premises, but if the premises are invalid, then the argument is not sound.

We know nuclear fusion is occouring inside the sun due to gravity compressing the helium and hydrogen inside so strongly that they undergo fusion in order to counterbalance gravitational compression (hydrostatic equilibrium).

So, we know that fusion is occurring because a certain level of fusion is occurring?

We know the sun is mainly hydrogen, due to spectral analysis (certain elements emmit a special wavelngth of light, we receive a lot of hydrogen based wavelengths from the sun, not Carbon based ones).

That's fine. A coal composition was just an assumption on my part. I don't know for sure what the sun is made of and the Bible doesn't say.

We know it is not coal due to all of the above and because 10^30kg of coal would burn out within 1250 years considering how much energy the sun radiates. I can show you the math if you promise not to wine about it again like every time.

I believe that God created the sun so that it burns without actually consuming its fuel source, like the burning bush in Exodus. Others believe that angels work to keep the solar fire stoked. The Bible doesn't say, so this is an issue that Christians in good conscience can disagree on.

Where in the bible does it say the sun is made of coal or is not round. It only says that the sun is a "light" and is placed in the "dome" surrounding the earth.

It doesn't say what the sun is made of or how large the firmament is. If it did, I wouldn't have had to resort to measurements and calculations.

I never said the sun wasn't round. I can look at it and see that it's round.

I'm lucky if i get away with only a warning for this one. I'm not arguing against god, i'n just trying to say that the sun can be very very big and far away. I doubt the "dome" surrounding the earth has specific measurments or does it?

We know from the Bible that the stars at night are small enough that they can fall to the ground (Is 34:4, Dan 8:10, Mt 24:29, Mk 13:35, Rev 6:13) and can be held in the hand or stamped upon (Dan 8:10, Rev 1:16). If they were billions or trillions of miles away, they wouldn't be able to fall to the ground, and we wouldn't be able to see them from here.

i do beleive ther are two other planets....venus and uh mercury? both planeys have incredible gravity, rougly 4x more than earth, and a molten surface

How do you know how much gravity those planets have? For that matter, how do you know they aren't just small, bright lights a few hundred miles overhead?

If the Sun orbited the Earth at the distance you believe it to be it would be traveling tremendously fast. Days would consist of minutes rather than hours.

I believe if my Math is correct you would be looking at around 514 orbits of the Sun per 24 hours if it where at 560miles away.

How do you know that an object must travel at a specific speed to stay at a particular altitude? Couldn't something travel slower if it had more lift, so it didn't need as much thrust? A helicopter can stay in a geosynchronous position from a just a few yards in the air, so how does your theory account for that?

Pastor Billy-Reuben

[PD1982]

Re: The Sun: Millions of miles away?

You believe that hogwash NASA uses to steal our money? I suppose you also believe their Moon landing story even though there are huge piles of evidence they didn't go there?

Duh!

Your fuzzy math isn't correct. Your parents didn't properly school you.

Genesis 1:16 "And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also."

With great respect cranky, I am a computer science graduate.
I have recently been developing applications for devices such as GPS receivers. Now you can not tell me that there are no Satellites in space?

NASA have launched Satellites in the past, they are not responsible for most of the Satellites in space.

I will agree with you however, I do think NASA have been up to bad for a long time and this may shock you but I do not believe we landed on the moon. The evidence against it is astonishing! Plus being a semi-professional photographer (in my spare time) even I can see that the lighting is wrong!

It's nice to be able to agree with someone on this forum, I am sure we agree for different reasons though.



Paster Billy - Thank you for your civilised reply.

If space were a Vacuum (which science believes it to be) this firstly means there is no Air and therefore no resistance, the lack of gravity and air resistance means an object will just float. Now add the Earth in to the equation, the Earth emits a gravitational pull, which causes an object orbit around the Earth. The speed depends on the distance away from the Earth.

Ok, So the helicopter, you are correct with your idea that a helicopter hovering is in a (technically) geosynchronous position. The problem is, what use is this?
A Satellite has a massive coverage of the Earth. From its position in Space the entire side of the Earth it is above.
Because there is no Air/Resistance (friction) in Space (A Vacuum) being too close to the Earth means it would travel fast around the Earth.
So that is why Geosynchronous Satellites have be sent so far away.

Back to the Helicopter, The Air resistance and the constant gravitational pull of the Earth means that fuel is needed for propulsion to keep it in the air.
This is why Satellites are put in space because once they are in Orbit with the Earth they stay there.