Reason and Religion are Non-Overlapping Magisteria

[Billy Bob Jenkins]

"Reason and Religion are Non-Overlapping Magisteria"

I know that is a lot of big words: "magisteria", "non-overlapping", "are"... But it is important that each and every Christian understand this important concept, especially in this modern age where argumentative secularists are constantly trying to undermine our faith that the Bible is evidence of its own divine origin.

First of all, many secular scientists and philosophers embrace the belief that SCIENCE and religion are non-overlapping magisteria, because they answer different questions. They say that science answers the question "how" while religion answers the question "why". This is of course total crap, like most of the things that secular scientists and philosophers say.

Why is this total crap? The reasons are obvious. Scientific answers and religious answers are FREQUENTLY in conflict and contradict one another. For example, religion tells us that the universe was formed in six days. Science on the other hand tells us that the universe took billions of years to form. So obviously, science and religion contradict one another. A child can see it.

REASON on the other hand, has nothing at all to do with religious faith. No matter what your brain tells you, the KJV Bible is still the infallible Word of God(c).

[daveb123]

Re: Reason and Religion are Non-Overlapping Magisteria

So why do you hand pick what science you believe in and use or benefit from and what you prefer not to trust?....

It seems mighty hypocritical to pretend not to believe in science when it conflicts with what your bible says..yet on the other hand i notice you Christians love to play around with your own pretend science in some authoritative way when you feel it aids your case...


Science:

we have observed and tested the evidence and facts before us, lets now reach a conclusion

while Religion:

we already have the conclusions, lets now look for the evidence and facts to back them up!

Trouble is if science doesn't back you up you reject it!...you prefer to be ignorant of scientific truths and believe in religious dogma...the earth is NOT round ..its flat!......of course we all know that to be crazy....yet you prefer the delusion....no matter what the evidence you prefer to distort or present it as false..the bible must be right because it says so!...

Jesus once stated the mustard seed is the smallest of the seeds...yet is it?...no of course its not! scientific evidence contradicts the bible and states that the smallest seeds are from epiphytic orchids (family Orchidaceae) in the tropical rainforest. Some seeds are only 1/300th of an inch (85 micrometers) long, which is below the resolving power of the unaided human eye....

Yet some have even argued, despite the clear meaning of his quote, that Jesus was only referring to the seeds known to his audience! Ehmm..well then, was the mustard seed the smallest seed known in Palestine? er no not even in Jesus day and location! There would be numerous plants familiar to his audience with smaller seeds, of which the best example would be the seed of the black orchid. And just for the record, the mustard seed doesn’t grow to be the greatest of all the shrubs on Earth, either.


So which is correct...the bible or science and common sense?

I chose this well known argument to highlight the futility of using the bible to reason..its impossible to ignore reality and science....unless you prefer to live in delusion..


Of course Jesus used the mustard seed to convey his illustration and very well too!..but it does illustrate how the bible is very inaccurate as regards reality and science!...you cant believe EVERY thing it states as the truth or reality....unless you prefer to believe the false hood from the truth?

[daveb123]

Re: Reason and Religion are Non-Overlapping Magisteria

Sorry to hog your thread Billy but dawkins gets my point across in better terms i think..


Richard Dawkins criticized Non-Overlapping Magisteria's position on the grounds that religion does not, and cannot, steer clear of the material scientific matters that Non-Overlapping Magisteria considers outside religion's scope. He writes, "it is completely unrealistic to claim, that religion keeps itself away from science's turf, restricting itself to morals and values. A universe with a supernatural presence would be a fundamentally and qualitatively different kind of universe from one without. The difference is, inescapably, a scientific difference. Religions make existence claims, and this means scientific claims."

Dawkins also argues that a religion in which there were no interventions in the physical world by supernatural beings (hence subject to scientific investigation) would be a far different one from any existent ones, and certainly different from all the Abrahamic religions. Moreover, he claims that religions would be only too happy to accept any scientific claims that supported their views. For example, if DNA evidence proved that Jesus had no earthly father, Dawkins claims that the argument of non-overlapping magisteria would be quickly dropped!

Thats what you lot do here!...but you cant see it!

[Pastor Isaac Peters]

Re: Reason and Religion are Non-Overlapping Magisteria

So why do you hand pick what science you believe in and use or benefit from and what you prefer not to trust?....

So what do you want us to do, hand-pick only those Bible verses that agree with secular "science"? The Bible has to be right because it is God's Word. If you disagree, then you are calling God a liar.

[Brother Temperance]

Re: Reason and Religion are Non-Overlapping Magisteria

So, let me see if I understand this correctly... Magisteria are a special kind of demon, and "reason" and "religion" are two different kinds of distraction that Satan created to keep us from understanding the Truth of the Holy Bible. Is that it, or am I missing something?

[Billy Bob Jenkins]

Re: Reason and Religion are Non-Overlapping Magisteria

@ Dave:

You make some good points, and some bad points.

You seem to understand that science and religion DO in fact overlap. Secular science and religious science are often in contradiction. I am more than willing to admit this. In fact, I asserted it in the original post. Learn to read.

What you do not understand, Dave, is that REASON and religion ARE, in fact, non-overlapping magisteria, because no matter what evidence you may find to the contrary, I am going to continue believing that the Bible is the Word of God(c). My faith is just that strong.

The off-chance that secular science might happen to be right is just simply not worth the risk that I might go to Hell. Tell me, Dave, what is more important to you? Eternal salvation? Or being right? Be careful how you answer. God is listening.

[Billy Bob Jenkins]

Re: Reason and Religion are Non-Overlapping Magisteria

So, let me see if I understand this correctly... Magisteria are a special kind of demon, and "reason" and "religion" are two different kinds of distraction that Satan created to keep us from understanding the Truth of the Holy Bible. Is that it, or am I missing something?

Brother, I admire your simple outlook on the subject. Your ability to see through my philosophism and extract the kernels of Truth(c) are unparalleled in my experience. You GET IT. This thread is intended to reach out to those people who still need the crutch of reason to give their faith context. You, my friend, are beyond the reach of dubious philosophies such as, well, anything not in the Bible, and therefore have no need to bother over this thread.

[Redeemed Papist]

Re: Reason and Religion are Non-Overlapping Magisteria

Brother, I admire your simple outlook on the subject. Your ability to see through my philosophism and extract the kernels of Truth© are unparalleled in my experience. You GET IT. This thread is intended to reach out to those people who still need the crutch of reason to give their faith context. You, my friend, are beyond the reach of dubious philosophies such as, well, anything not in the Bible, and therefore have no need to bother over this thread.

He truly is an inspiration.

Faith such as his is only to be aspired to by a lowly sinner desperate to stay on the narrow strait road to salvation.

Learn from him, heathens! All you need for eternal life is in the Bible. Why listen to the clear inventions of men in their so-called books of reason that they arrogantly think trump the word of God because they measured some stuff and then made up some explanations that fit?

Isaiah 40:28 Hast thou not known? hast thou not heard, that the everlasting God, the LORD, the Creator of the ends of the earth, fainteth not, neither is weary? there is no searching of his understanding.

All their silly measurements can't possibly understand God and actually take them further away from Him.

[Rev. Jim Osborne]

Re: Reason and Religion are Non-Overlapping Magisteria

This is a great point, brother. Reason and Religion are really two completely different things. Now, it makes sense (you can say it's reasonable! HA!) to apply reason to most things in life. When you are trying to decide whether to take a new job or not, you need reason to guide you. Or if you are beginning a relationship with somebody and want to know if you should take it a step further, let your reason help out. I would almost go as far as to say that reason is the only guide you should have in life!

Except when it comes down to Faith. Reason is an ally in every part of your life, except when it comes down to religion. The same Reason that helped you realize you were being scammed in the used car deal is the same Reason that will lead you astray when you begin to question God's literal Word that Noah's Ark really did happen or that Joshua stopped the sun from revolving around the earth. Just because something "doesn't make sense" doesn't mean it didn't happen like the Bible said it did.

[WinnerNotSinner]

Re: Reason and Religion are Non-Overlapping Magisteria

...And GOD has given us a solid example to not use reason when it comes to Faith.

If you see a tasty fruit on the tree, should you eat it? What if Someone told you not to eat it, but you didn't think they'd find out? You might reason that the positives outweigh the negatives and get your mouth around a juicy apple (even though the "apple" isn't backed up by scripture, a fruit of some kind is).

Eve's stupidity and subsequent punishment set an example to every Christian; don't disobey His Words, and only reason when He hasn't given you specifics.

I would never accept homosexuality; and will always believe they deserve capital punishment for their sins. Why? Because GOD has told us specifically about how horrible it is and what we should do about it. A humans reasoned opinion, such as "homosexuals are not hurting anyone and should be free to please themselves" is completely irrelevant, and is bound to land the "free thinker" in trouble - e.g Damning to Hellfire after death or Crippling them for their miserable lives.



The best Way is to Obey!

[Billy Bob Jenkins]

Re: Reason and Religion are Non-Overlapping Magisteria

Sorry to hog your thread Billy but dawkins gets my point across in better terms i think..

My name is Billy Bob. I promised my mother.

[Alvin]

Re: Reason and Religion are Non-Overlapping Magisteria

Science:

we have observed and tested the evidence and facts before us, lets now reach a conclusion

while Religion:

we already have the conclusions, lets now look for the evidence and facts to back them up!

Actually, Science starts from a weaker position than True Religion - the scientific method basically starts not with observation and tests, but with a more or less educated guess. Often less educated.

May I refer you back to who I'm sure must be one of your heathen Idols, Richard Feynman on the Scientific Method.

In contrast, True Christians (I passionately reject lumping all the other false superstitions into the same bucket and calling all of it "Religion") start out already knowing the right answer and therefore only have to work backwards to discover the beautiful evidence God has planted for us. But we can see the evidence more clearly because we are not just basing our empirical research on blind, random guesses. In that way, True Christian Science is more efficient: It's like when you already know the exit of a labyrinth, it's much easier to trace your way back and you won't get lost as easily or take as many wrong turns as you would when entering a dark labyrinth not knowing the exit. Think of the Bible as a beacon of light - a lighthouse for scientific endeavor.



And don't even get me started on how poorly "peer review" works in the scientific community. Thomas Kuhn in the Structure of Scientific Revolutions has written up a nice account of how science basically advances one funeral at a time - because a really new paradigm can only take hold once the power structure based on the previous dogma retires.

Have you been so blinded by scientisticious dogma that you don't realize that science is just another power structure with many quasi-religious rituals? Such as funny robes and hats signifying different degrees of scientific purity? Degrees certifying the annointment with scientific enlightenment? Tenure basically bestowing being-right-for-life on mortal beings? Can you really support such a system? If science were really about falsifying hypotheses in the face of the fact, you wouldn't need this quasi-religious flim-flam - because it wouldn't matter who made a discovery about the facts...



It wouldn't matter if they had tenure or not or published in A-journals. But it does. How are you going to fix that?





So I'd throw my hat in with Sweet Baby Jesus who has told us so much about how the world works. And warned us against false prophets. You should always be vigilant!

Matthew 24:24
For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

Amen and QED

[Pastor Isaac Peters]

Re: Reason and Religion are Non-Overlapping Magisteria

...And GOD has given us a solid example to not use reason when it comes to Faith.

If you see a tasty fruit on the tree, should you eat it? What if Someone told you not to eat it, but you didn't think they'd find out? You might reason that the positives outweigh the negatives and get your mouth around a juicy apple (even though the "apple" isn't backed up by scripture, a fruit of some kind is).

Eve's stupidity and subsequent punishment set an example to every Christian; don't disobey His Words, and only reason when He hasn't given you specifics.

Excellent point, Brother. God just said, "Don't":

Genesis 2:16-17: And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

But the serpent reasoned with Eve:

Genesis 3:1-5: Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden? And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden: But of the fruit of the tree which [is] in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die. And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

We all know how that worked out.

[Brother Helge]

Re: Reason and Religion are Non-Overlapping Magisteria

Reasons are stupid.
I let Jesus decide everything as He surely knows what's best for me!

Shout Glory!

[SodaStream]

Re: Reason and Religion are Non-Overlapping Magisteria

Sorry to hog your thread Billy but dawkins gets my point across in better terms i think..


Richard Dawkins criticized Non-Overlapping Magisteria's position on the grounds that religion does not, and cannot, steer clear of the material scientific matters that Non-Overlapping Magisteria considers outside religion's scope. He writes, "it is completely unrealistic to claim, that religion keeps itself away from science's turf, restricting itself to morals and values. A universe with a supernatural presence would be a fundamentally and qualitatively different kind of universe from one without. The difference is, inescapably, a scientific difference. Religions make existence claims, and this means scientific claims."

Dawkins also argues that a religion in which there were no interventions in the physical world by supernatural beings (hence subject to scientific investigation) would be a far different one from any existent ones, and certainly different from all the Abrahamic religions. Moreover, he claims that religions would be only too happy to accept any scientific claims that supported their views. For example, if DNA evidence proved that Jesus had no earthly father, Dawkins claims that the argument of non-overlapping magisteria would be quickly dropped!

Thats what you lot do here!...but you cant see it!

Look, your claims are backed up by athiest scientific theorem and our facts are the word of God. Regardless of your denomination you have faith, faith in athiest science, faith in darwenism, faith that the sun will come up tomorrow.. why must you argue that your faith is correct and our faith is not.

Let me refer you to this verse: Amos 3:3
" Can two walke together, except they be agreed?"

The word of god was not only raising questions before your so called scientists began their heathen campaign of mistruths, but Amos 3:3 gives a simple philosophical dilemma. Take it to mean what you wish, but do not attempt to coarse me into questioning my faith because let me tell you son, my faith in the word of God is more absolute than your faith in your lies.