What is the path to Salvation? Is it faith or works?

[Levi Jones]

I read so often that Christians are saved by faith alone, but doesn't James specifically say in Chapter 2 verses 14-18?

What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

[Larry Lee]

Re: I took slight umbrage with Rev. Jim's sermon "Faith vs Works"

Brother, we all love Rev. Jim and the Epistle of James very much. They are both so dear to us. BUT when it comes to the salvation of our very souls (and those of the sweet young girls in Jim's charge), there's only the Apostle Paul to stand on (Romans 3:21-28):

[21] But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
[22] Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
[23] For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
[24] Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
[25] Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
[26] To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
[27] Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
[28] Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Do you hear equivocation in that. I sure don't, Praise God!

[True Disciple]

Re: I took slight umbrage with Rev. Jim's sermon "Faith vs Works"

Well, Brother Levi, I would think Scripture leaves no doubt, when you look at the following passages:

Ephesians 2:8-9:
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Galatians 2:16:
Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

About the Scripture you quoted:

What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?

This one talks about faith possibly having no effect on a person's surroundings, if it is not accompanied by works. However, it doesn't mention Salvation™, does it? It just says: "if you do believe, but not help your fellow man, it will have no effect." This is rather obvious, of course.

Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

With "dead" I think James meant: not resulting in other people gaining faith as well. The faith is not visible at the surface, so it is "dead," meaning "not doing anything."

Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

This one speaks about the natural result of faith (works). So works can be seen as indicative of the presence of faith. This is because faith in The Lord fills people with Love and Joy. This is why you can show your faith by your works, and it is harder to show it without it.

However, this passage gives no reason to assume that works have anything to do with Salvation™. Problem solved!

[Larry Lee]

Re: I took slight umbrage with Rev. Jim's sermon "Faith vs Works"

This is why you can show your faith by your works, and it is harder to show it without it.

However, this passage gives no reason to assume that works have anything to do with Salvation™. Problem solved!

I've always half-way thought (God forgive me if I misspeak) that James was more interested in what nowadays the LIEbruls call "social justice", rather than the Great Commission of saving souls for Jesus and building up His bride. In James's hands, True Christian(tm) faith practically makes us the Salvation Army!

[Levi Jones]

Re: I took slight umbrage with Rev. Jim's sermon "Faith vs Works"

Brother, we all love Rev. Jim and the Epistle of James very much. They are both so dear to us. BUT when it comes to the salvation of our very souls (and those of the sweet young girls in Jim's charge), there's only the Apostle Paul to stand on (Romans 3:21-28): Do you hear equivocation in that. I sure don't, Praise God!

Wow this is a conundrum. Doesn't Jesus himself say in

Matthew 16:27
For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

?

[Levi Jones]

Re: I took slight umbrage with Rev. Jim's sermon "Faith vs Works"

Well, Brother Levi, I would think Scripture leaves no doubt, when you look at the following passages:

Ephesians 2:8-9:
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Galatians 2:16:
Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

About the Scripture you quoted:This one talks about faith possibly having no effect on a person's surroundings, if it is not accompanied by works. However, it doesn't mention Salvation™, does it? It just says: "if you do believe, but not help your fellow man, it will have no effect." This is rather obvious, of course.
With "dead" I think James meant: not resulting in other people gaining faith as well. The faith is not visible at the surface, so it is "dead," meaning "not doing anything."This one speaks about the natural result of faith (works). So works can be seen as indicative of the presence of faith. This is because faith in The Lord fills people with Love and Joy. This is why you can show your faith by your works, and it is harder to show it without it.

However, this passage gives no reason to assume that works have anything to do with Salvation™. Problem solved!

I don't know, Brother. Doesn't it say in John also that we will be judged by our works?

John 5:29
And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

[True Disciple]

Re: I took slight umbrage with Rev. Jim's sermon "Faith vs Works"

I've always half-way thought (God forgive me if I misspeak) that James was more interested in what nowadays the LIEbruls call "social justice", rather than the Great Commission of saving souls for Jesus and building up His bride. In James's hands, True Christian™ faith practically makes us the Salvation Army!

Well, I think God included James into the KJV for a reason, Brother. There are many words of wisdom in James, but as I've shown, they are easily misinterpreted.

Wow this is a conundrum. Doesn't Jesus himself say in

Matthew 16:27
For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

?

I'm not sure, but isn't this verse speaking about the Return of Jesus at the start of the Millennial Kingdom? Then it doesn't contradict the verses that speak about Salvation(tm) through faith alone, as this Salvation(tm) is achieved after the Millennial Kingdom.

[Larry Lee]

Re: I took slight umbrage with Rev. Jim's sermon "Faith vs Works"

Wow this is a conundrum. Doesn't Jesus himself say in

Matthew 16:27
For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

?

ha ha ha ha ha, oh Brother Levi, Have you forgotten "Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved" (Acts 16:31)? That's FAITH, brother, pure and simple.

[Levi Jones]

Re: I took slight umbrage with Rev. Jim's sermon "Faith vs Works"

Well, I think God included James into the KJV for a reason, Brother. There are many words of wisdom in James, but as I've shown, they are easily misinterpreted.



I'm not sure, but isn't this verse speaking about the Return of Jesus at the start of the Millennial Kingdom? Then it doesn't contradict the verses that speak about Salvation™ through faith alone, as this Salvation™ is achieved after the Millennial Kingdom.

Interesting, but I believe Paul even says we will be judged by our works and I see nothing about after the coming of the Millennial Kingdom here.

2 Corinthians 5:10-11
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.

[Larry Lee]

Re: I took slight umbrage with Rev. Jim's sermon "Faith vs Works"

Well, I think God included James into the KJV for a reason, Brother. There are many words of wisdom in James, but as I've shown, they are easily misinterpreted.

Honestly, Brother TD, the Epistle of James enjoys its place in the Biblical canon as a distinctly Jewish approach to True Christian(tm) faith and practice, as I know you know. We shouldn't forget that the Hebes of James's time were still enthralled with the responsibility of following the Law to the letter.

[Levi Jones]

Re: I took slight umbrage with Rev. Jim's sermon "Faith vs Works"

Honestly, Brother TD, the Epistle of James enjoys its place in the Biblical canon as a distinctly Jewish approach to True Christian™ faith and practice, as I know you know. We shouldn't forget that the Hebes of James's time were still enthralled with the responsibility of following the Law to the letter.

That's true Brother Larry. James is definitely addressing the Joos, but so isn't Matthew? We would never think less of the Gospel of Matthew, would we?

[Larry Lee]

Re: I took slight umbrage with Rev. Jim's sermon "Faith vs Works"

That's true Brother Larry. James is definitely addressing the Joos, but so isn't Matthew? We would never think less of the Gospel of Matthew, would we?

To my ears, you sound a bit like that nervous-Nellie Timothy, who Paul had to set straight in Titus as to the true nature of "they of the circumcision". Do you, too, need a reminder about how to think about the Joos?

[Levi Jones]

Re: I took slight umbrage with Rev. Jim's sermon "Faith vs Works"

To my ears, you sound a bit like that nervous-Nellie Timothy, who Paul had to set straight in Titus as to the true nature of "they of the circumcision". Do you, too, need a reminder about how to think about the Joos?

No brother. I know well of the depredations of the Christ Killers, but I think it is disingenuous to say that some parts of the Bible only apply to certain people and not to others.

Who among us doesn't believe that Biblical Old Testament law still applies to True Christians™, outside of circumcision and dietary laws, or is 3/4 of the Holy Word merely "Jewish myths?"

[Meek and Humble]

Re: I took slight umbrage with Rev. Jim's sermon "Faith vs Works"

Brothers, there is no need to argue!!! I explained how all of this works in this thread: http://www.landoverbaptist.net/showt...ghlight=street

Here's a sample, it's explained in further detail on the thread:

Ezekiel 33:8-9: When I say unto the wicked, O wicked [man], thou shalt surely die; if thou dost not speak to warn the wicked from his way, that wicked [man] shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand. Nevertheless, if thou warn the wicked of his way to turn from it; if he do not turn from his way, he shall die in his iniquity; but thou hast delivered thy soul.

Listen up, today, I take as my verse


For by thy words thou shalt be justified. -- Matthew 12:37


I’m here to explain to you how easy salvation is – you just have to say the right things!


And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life. -- John 5:29


And although you are justified by your words, to be saved you also have to do good.


A man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. -- Romans 3:28


But of course, it doesn’t really matter what you say or do, because you are actually justified by your faith.


Faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. -- James 2:17


It is also important to remember that although you are justified by faith alone and not by your good works, you also have to do good works to have faith and be saved.


Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. -- Matthew 25:34-36


But your faith isn’t really necessary, because Jesus will judge you based on whether you fed the hungry, gave drink to the thirsty, took in strangers, clothed the naked, and visited the sick and imprisoned.


Blessed are ye that hunger now: for ye shall be filled. ... Woe unto you that are full! for ye shall hunger. -- Luke 6:21, 24


Although why you would feed the hungry seems strange, because Jesus plans on only saving the hungry and not the full.


Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God. -- Matthew 5:9


To be saved, you have to make peace in the world.


Blessed are ye, when men shall hate you, and when they shall separate you from their company, and shall reproach you, and cast out your name as evil, for the Son of man's sake. Rejoice ye in that day, and leap for joy: for, behold, your reward is great in heaven. -- Luke 6:22-23


But besides that, to go to heaven, you actually have to cause hate and division in the world.


But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked. -- Luke 6:35


But you must love your enemies, do good to them, and give them lots of money.


When the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness ... and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul. -- Ezekiel 18:27

But of course, to be save you soul you just have to follow the laws of the Old Testament.


Now, Listen up again! Are there any amongst you sinners, you vile worms, you unwashed and unworthy, who would not accept the Love of Christ and become a True Christian™?

[Levi Jones]

Re: I took slight umbrage with Rev. Jim's sermon "Faith vs Works"

Brothers, there is no need to argue!!! I explained how all of this works in this thread: http://www.landoverbaptist.net/showt...ghlight=street

Here's a sample, it's explained in further detail on the thread:

[B][COLOR=maroon]

Exactly! As I read your sermon, it agrees with me.