[Rev. M. Rodimer]

Re: Ask a sensible atheist

Firstly I must say I am sorry that you live believing that your mother burns in hell. I think you would be better off believing otherwise, but your faith is your faith.

Why would she be better off believing a lie?

I've heard hundreds of "feelgood" pastors at funerals saying, "Oh, she's in a better place now. She's with the angels." The Bible indicates otherwise; in fact, the Bible makes clear that dead people are dead until the Resurrection to Judgment.

So I guess that's one thing True Christians(tm) and atheists have in common. We both know that no, she's not in a better place. She's right there, dead and unknowing. Difference is, we know that she will be resurrected bodily at the end of the world, either to glory, or to eternal torture in the flames.

Of course, since the dead are unknowing it will seem to them that they are resurrected immediately after death.

Now, I'd like to ask you a question: You claim to have morals. Since you ignore God's Word telling you what's right or wrong, how do you know what's right or wrong?

Don't you base it on Christian beliefs anyway, since you live in a Christian nation? Aren't you a social freeloader?

[A common man]

Re: Ask a sensible atheist

"Well with detergent, I use three different brands for different uses, so there isn't "one True detergent". Have you read the KJV Bible? You will find the absolute Truth within its pages. "

I have read parts of various bibles, and of course they are all very different sometimes. The passage "ashes to ashes, dust to dust" (if that is remotely correct to a common bible, this I have only heard quoted in movies) is written in a normal swedish bible "by earth are you come, earth shall you once more become" (literal translation, word by word). Of course you could say that it is lost in translation. But the bible was not written in English either.

"So you put more faith into a book than your friend? How do you know that it is really a myth? The only way to know for sure would to be cut half your hair and measure in three months time. "

A proper scientific study is normally worth more than the words of a 14-year-old who have "heard that is so" because "someone told him". It did not take much study to find the first evidence of it being a myth, and it piled up quickly. Of course, the very obvious myths are quicker to debunk. And here does the hair discussion end.

"I'm sorry your parents lied to you. "

I'm not. I was thrilled to have Santa Claus and the tooth fairy as part of my childhood. It was fun.

"Hmmm...... So what is the value of human life? The words that you have given us are very vague. Do you respect everyone? What about child molesters? What exactly is decency? right and wrong? Ever heard the saying what's right for the fox is wrong for the goose? God has given us very specific rules about what is right and what is wrong, so at least we base ours on something tangible. Your "right and wrong" could change with as little as what mood you're in. "

They are based on common sense, and upbringing, and the environment in which I live, and on my genetics. Not living by an old book like the bible or the Quran enables me to use my common sense best, and is most likely to make me a decent person. Sweden is one of the very most "un-religious" countries in the world with, according to studies, between 50 and 85 % of the population declaring themselves as non-religious, and we are still doing very well not murdering each other much. When looking at nations in the world, the degree of religion slowly disappearing seem to go along with increased prosperity and quality of life. If you take your moral values from the bible only and not use common sense at all, you could make up anything you wanted. You could sell your daughter or kill your slave for example. In the same way you can create a set of very sound morals. It is all about picking and choosing the parts you like. I personally prefer to determine right and wrong using common sense and rational discussion.

"What if an atheist is a child molester? In his mind he's doing what's right. "

Possibly. Kinda strange argument to bring up in these times when the horrible child abuse within the catholic church has been brought to light. Acts like these are horrible, and they are so to any sensible human, and you are probably more likely to commit such acts if you are religious, because when your common sense says "no" you have a holy book which can somehow rectify your acts if you want it to. It is up to you.

"Why do you refuse to answer that question? "

I assumed you did not expect an answer, since it is a pointless question. No more meaningful than if I would ask you if you are currently riding Wotan's eight-legged horse while typing.




""

[A common man]

Re: Ask a sensible atheist

Why would she be better off believing a lie?

I've heard hundreds of "feelgood" pastors at funerals saying, "Oh, she's in a better place now. She's with the angels." The Bible indicates otherwise; in fact, the Bible makes clear that dead people are dead until the Resurrection to Judgment.

So I guess that's one thing True Christians™ and atheists have in common. We both know that no, she's not in a better place. She's right there, dead and unknowing. Difference is, we know that she will be resurrected bodily at the end of the world, either to glory, or to eternal torture in the flames.

Of course, since the dead are unknowing it will seem to them that they are resurrected immediately after death.

Now, I'd like to ask you a question: You claim to have morals. Since you ignore God's Word telling you what's right or wrong, how do you know what's right or wrong?

Don't you base it on Christian beliefs anyway, since you live in a Christian nation? Aren't you a social freeloader?

I talked with a woman from New Zealand that was going to be a mssionary, of course we had discussions about her faith. I asked her: since it, according to your beliefs, is so extremely difficult to get to heaven, does it not bother you that only you and a handful others are doing the right thing? If it is like you say, then this Hell is obviously going to be a very crowded place, right? She nodded uncomfortably.

Out of the world's christian belief sets, which count in the thousands at least, derived from many different versions of the bible, you have been subjected to one, and chose to keep it. On a personal, emotional level, don't you think it is unfair to every single other person on the planet that only your precious few happen to be subjected to your "correct" belief?


And as for where my morals come from, I explained that. and you only need to look at the world to see that people in general have some basic morals, regardless of faith. African tribes and kurdish muslims often mutilate the genitals of their children, so does jews, in the name of religion. Swedish citizens have quite little christian influence in their daily lives, so does the buddhists of Nepal. Still we seem to do very well in the moral department.


Finally I must mention that it is quite patronizing to the human mind to insinuate that if we had no religious influence we would cease to have moral values.

[Cranky Old Man]

Re: Ask a sensible atheist

Out of the world's christian belief sets, which count in the thousands at least, derived from many different versions of the bible, you have been subjected to one, and chose to keep it. On a personal, emotional level, don't you think it is unfair to every single other person on the planet that only your precious few happen to be subjected to your "correct" belief?

There is nothing unfair about that. They chose to follow false bibles instead of the one and only True Bible: the KJV1611 Holy Bible. Those idiots chose to burn in hell for all eternity. No one forced them to do that.

[A common man]

Re: Ask a sensible atheist

There is nothing unfair about that. They chose to follow false bibles instead of the one and only True Bible: the KJV1611 Holy Bible. Those idiots chose to burn in hell for all eternity. No one forced them to do that.

You have chosen to not read my post, or at least to imagine it says something else. How would you ever be able to choose the bible you chose if you were never subjected to it? If you personally had been born in a small town in Tennessee in a household where everybody had a christian belief, but happened to use a different bible, and that was the only bible you ever saw.

Consider that, do you still think it is fair that not everybody gets to choose, but are predestined to end up in hell because they never have the tools to be "true" according to your beliefs?

From your viewpoint, don't you feel bad for them when you imagine them walking through life, believing they are being as righteous as they possibly can, and willing to do things differently if that turns out to be "God's will", and still, after dying with the bible on their chest, they are surprised to find themselves in hell?

No pity at all?

[Higgins]

Re: Ask a sensible atheist

I have a question for you atheist, but in doing so I assume some things about you and your character please stop me if you consider any of these untrue:

You are a morally upright person.

You base these moral precepts upon something external to yourself (e.g. societal influences, the law, a duty that you see to your fellow man, or philosophical schools of thought)

You assume all things have a cause or at very least events come after a cause.

If any of the above are false please stop reading now and address them. My question is how can you have a viable means of morality without the notion of God?

For instance if you based your morals on societal influences then you are in no position to make a claim that anything is unjust or just because those people would be following what they would consider moral on the basis of their society.

If you based your morals on the law, a similar problem arises to societal influences, as how can one just one's actions as just or unjust when something is as malleable as the law. Further if the legislature or courts created law that one must kill one innocent or face jail time, then there would be no basis to judge if that was moral or not.

If you base it on a duty to your fellow man, this has its problems as well. Duty is an arbitrary concept created by man in order to enforce what it perceives as the things one ought to do. So in moral terms, I ought to do something because I ought to do it, has no groundwork either because it is circular logic.

Depending on what philosophical school you ascribe to I can address that then.

I look forward to reading your answer.

[BelieverInGod]

Re: Ask a sensible atheist

Why would she be better off believing a lie?

I've heard hundreds of "feelgood" pastors at funerals saying, "Oh, she's in a better place now. She's with the angels." The Bible indicates otherwise; in fact, the Bible makes clear that dead people are dead until the Resurrection to Judgment.

Thank you Brother, this was my real break from the Protestant church. Having her pastor (he had been for over 30 years) telling me she was in heaven now. I finally flipped out and screamed "SHE WAS DABBLING IN WITCHCRAFT AND SLEEPING WITH MULTIPLE MEN! HOW IS SHE GETTING INTO HEAVEN!" He kind of shuffled his feet and muttered something about how even though she was lost around the time of her death that she had a good heart and that's what was important to God.

So I guess that's one thing True Christians™ and atheists have in common. We both know that no, she's not in a better place. She's right there, dead and unknowing. Difference is, we know that she will be resurrected bodily at the end of the world, either to glory, or to eternal torture in the flames.

I didn't even think of this. Why would an atheist want me to believe my mother is "in a better place"? If the atheists are right then my mother is nothing but worm food.

I have read parts of various bibles, and of course they are all very different sometimes. The passage "ashes to ashes, dust to dust" (if that is remotely correct to a common bible, this I have only heard quoted in movies) is written in a normal swedish bible "by earth are you come, earth shall you once more become" (literal translation, word by word). Of course you could say that it is lost in translation. But the bible was not written in English either.

Okay, first of all, to use the quote function, it's basic bbs code [ quote ]text [ /quote ] I'm having trouble following you in your notes and have to delete a bunch of stuff so it doesn't get all lost.

So you're Swedish, well that might be part of the issue right there.

A proper scientific study is normally worth more than the words of a 14-year-old who have "heard that is so" because "someone told him". It did not take much study to find the first evidence of it being a myth, and it piled up quickly. Of course, the very obvious myths are quicker to debunk. And here does the hair discussion end.

Except that you're putting faith in the book. Do you know who wrote that book? Okay, I'll admit that hair cutting isn't very important, but I have read a lot of science books (and I do mean a lot) and the thing that I found was the more I read, the more I realized that scientists don't really know. They like to use vague language like "we believe", "evidence supports", and "current theories state". Doesn't sound like the evidence is very solid to me. So when they start saying the Bible is wrong, and that God doesn't exist then I start to ask how they know.

I'm not. I was thrilled to have Santa Claus and the tooth fairy as part of my childhood. It was fun.

I'm actually surprised. So many come on here because they're angry at their parents about these lies and think that it has something to do with Jesus as well.

They are based on common sense, and upbringing, and the environment in which I live, and on my genetics.

Your genetics are your guide? So do you get urges to build a long boat and go raiding

Not living by an old book like the bible or the Quran enables me to use my common sense best, and is most likely to make me a decent person. Sweden is one of the very most "un-religious" countries in the world with, according to studies, between 50 and 85 % of the population declaring themselves as non-religious, and we are still doing very well not murdering each other much.

No from what I understand, you're too busy offing yourselves to kill anyone else. So it would seem that being "un-religious" leads to depression and suicide. How is that good for you?

And as I said, as far as good and evil, what's good for the fox is evil for the goose. There is just no getting around that fact.

When looking at nations in the world, the degree of religion slowly disappearing seem to go along with increased prosperity and quality of life.

Yes, I heard of that study. I also noticed that the study stated that the US was the one nation that bucked the trend.

If you take your moral values from the bible only and not use common sense at all, you could make up anything you wanted. You could sell your daughter or kill your slave for example. In the same way you can create a set of very sound morals. It is all about picking and choosing the parts you like. I personally prefer to determine right and wrong using common sense and rational discussion.

Except we don't pick and choose. I realize that you are surrounded by a bunch of Lutheran false christians, and that is probably your view of christianity, however True Christians(TM) follow the whole Bible and we spend a lot of time on here discussing what is scripturally right and wrong.

Possibly. Kinda strange argument to bring up in these times when the horrible child abuse within the catholic church has been brought to light. Acts like these are horrible, and they are so to any sensible human, and you are probably more likely to commit such acts if you are religious, because when your common sense says "no" you have a holy book which can somehow rectify your acts if you want it to. It is up to you.

Well I guess it's a good thing that Catholics aren't Christian. Really, they're nothing more than Roman paganism with a big Jesus stamp. Instead of turning to the Bible for their answers, they turn to a suspected child molester in a funny fish hat.

I assumed you did not expect an answer, since it is a pointless question. No more meaningful than if I would ask you if you are currently riding Wotan's eight-legged horse while typing.

Why would I be riding Sleipnir? How would I ride something that doesn't exist.

The only Heavenly horses I believe in are the ones that Jesus' army will be riding in the battle of Armageddon.

Revelation 19
11And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
12His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
13And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
14And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
15And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
16And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

[A common man]

Re: Ask a sensible atheist

You assume all things have a cause or at very least events come after a cause.

I will be happy to answer you, but to be honest I have trouble understanding this part, English is, after all, not my first language though it is one of the areas I enjoy studying in my spare time.

I understand "cause and effect" for example, but if you rephrase that sentence, or explain it further, I will probably be able to answer you better.

[Phebe Carlyle]

Re: Ask a sensible atheist

I talked with a woman from New Zealand that was going to be a mssionary, of course we had discussions about her faith. I asked her: since it, according to your beliefs, is so extremely difficult to get to heaven, does it not bother you that only you and a handful others are doing the right thing? If it is like you say, then this Hell is obviously going to be a very crowded place, right? She nodded uncomfortably.

Well she obviously must not be a True Christian, filled with the conviction of the love of Jesus. I fail to see why she nodded uncomfortably considering she was off to do Missionary work with the purpose to spread the Love of Jesus to the far flung masses, whereby removing the threat of at least SOME going to Hell. She can only do so much by spreading The Word, the rest is up to the person to WANT Salvation to begin with and for Jesus to offer the gift.

Out of the world's christian belief sets, which count in the thousands at least, derived from many different versions of the bible, you have been subjected to one, and chose to keep it. On a personal, emotional level, don't you think it is unfair to every single other person on the planet that only your precious few happen to be subjected to your "correct" belief?

I think your statement is presumptuous in stating that we have only read ONE version of the Bible. The fact is the vast majority of us have read MANY MANY different Bible PER-VERSIONS to realize that the KJV1611 is the ONLY TRUE Word of God.

You are also quick to make judgements on The Bible, considering you have admitted you have never even read ONE per-version or KJV1611 TRUTH in its entirety.

Just as I would not see a movie, based on a "reviewer" who has yet to see the film in question him or herself, I also cannot accept your "review" on Christianity as ignorance certainly makes you no expert, Sir, nor someone even prone to viable or trustworthy opinion.

And as for where my morals come from, I explained that. and you only need to look at the world to see that people in general have some basic morals, regardless of faith. African tribes and kurdish muslims often mutilate the genitals of their children, so does jews, in the name of religion. Swedish citizens have quite little christian influence in their daily lives, so does the buddhists of Nepal. Still we seem to do very well in the moral department.

All you have to see is that the laws of the land are more often than not, based on BIBLICAL commandments. They are the measures of what is right or wrong, unless of course you are claiming that Sweden don't have such laws as MURDER IS WRONG and doing so you will be punished; THEFT IS WRONG and doing so, you will be punished.

Finally I must mention that it is quite patronizing to the human mind to insinuate that if we had no religious influence we would cease to have moral values.

It's hardly patronizing. You are basing your rhetoric on an hypothetical scenario conjured in your mind. Belief in God has ALWAYS been; as Genesis 1:1 says "In the Beginning........."

YIC

Mrs Phebe Dewitt.

[Higgins]

Re: Ask a sensible atheist

I will be happy to answer you, but to be honest I have trouble understanding this part, English is, after all, not my first language though it is one of the areas I enjoy studying in my spare time.

I understand "cause and effect" for example, but if you rephrase that sentence, or explain it further, I will probably be able to answer you better.

All I am saying is that there is cause and effect in the universe (e.g. I flip on a light switch a light comes on)

[Lisa H]

Re: Ask a sensible atheist

If atheists deny God exists, then they must acknowledge God exists to be able to deny Him. So then you are really just an unbeliever and must accept you will be going to Hell.

[A common man]

Re: Ask a sensible atheist

If atheists deny God exists, then they must acknowledge God exists to be able to deny Him. So then you are really just an unbeliever and must accept you will be going to Hell.

I suppose you don't believe in Allah. Do you need to acknowledge his existence in order to deny him?

By this twisted logic you would be unable to not believe in anything because you must first believe it to be able to not believe it..........

[Phebe Carlyle]

Re: Ask a sensible atheist

I suppose you don't believe in Allah. Do you need to acknowledge his existence in order to deny him?

By this twisted logic you would be unable to not believe in anything because you must first believe it to be able to not believe it..........

I think you have things skewed. I know for a fact that Sister Lisa does not deny the existence of Allah, because Allah is just the misguided name for God mooslimes use as mooslimes don't recognise that Jesus is Christ - The Messiah, but rather they believe that Muhammad is the last prophet. ( Just as Mormons believe Joseph Smith is the last prophet). ALL of them believe in God. It is by Christianity and Salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, that you go to heaven.

You quite obviously know NOTHING about ANY religion. Whether the ONLY TRUTH ,being Christianity, or the false ones like mormonism and islam.

YIC

Mrs Phebe Dewitt.

[A common man]

Re: Ask a sensible atheist

I have a question for you atheist, but in doing so I assume some things about you and your character please stop me if you consider any of these untrue:

You are a morally upright person.

You base these moral precepts upon something external to yourself (e.g. societal influences, the law, a duty that you see to your fellow man, or philosophical schools of thought)

You assume all things have a cause or at very least events come after a cause.

If any of the above are false please stop reading now and address them. My question is how can you have a viable means of morality without the notion of God?

For instance if you based your morals on societal influences then you are in no position to make a claim that anything is unjust or just because those people would be following what they would consider moral on the basis of their society.

If you based your morals on the law, a similar problem arises to societal influences, as how can one just one's actions as just or unjust when something is as malleable as the law. Further if the legislature or courts created law that one must kill one innocent or face jail time, then there would be no basis to judge if that was moral or not.

If you base it on a duty to your fellow man, this has its problems as well. Duty is an arbitrary concept created by man in order to enforce what it perceives as the things one ought to do. So in moral terms, I ought to do something because I ought to do it, has no groundwork either because it is circular logic.

Depending on what philosophical school you ascribe to I can address that then.

I look forward to reading your answer.

All the things you mention add to the sense of morality of course, just like with all people, christians also. 400 years ago christians would presume witches were everywhere and would burn them alive if even a small child had said "she is a witch"

Slavery disappeared from the western world not too long ago and is heavily supported in the bible, yet people today cannot imagine having slaves in chains working the fields. Changes in laws does contribute to the overall change in zeitgeist, though not overnight but over the course of a few decades.

Looking at the united states, they chose to no longer keep slaves, that is one example of how the normal evolution of people's values improve, and the bible was not rewritten. This was common sense at play.


The duty to my fellow man, that you call it, is probably in part a genetically programmed urge, but mostly a product of environment and upbringing. As for the argument that they would be christian values, only with the removed mentioning of any God, that does not hold up considering the fact that all people in the world apparently function in society. The Chinese (most of them) have no Christian history, yet they function perfectly well, even though their government do a fair amount of killing and crimes against humanity.

The law is a less important part, although it over time adds to the overall moral values of a society.

For example, corporal punishment in the home and in schools was outlawed where I live in 1979, making it the first country to declare that it is wrong to strike a child, even your own. Back then people thought the law was completely pointless, since police would not be able to peek into every single home. Today, people in general cannot imagine striking a child and most European countries, along with most US states have also banned the practice. Although the bible tells you how to use violence against your child you would not do it, would you?

So the point is that a people's set of morals come from a variety of things, and a society without christian influence has historically been perfectly able to retain decent moral values, and in the societies that happen to historically have a christian influence the environment has become more humane in modern times and it goes along with the decline of religion.

Environment and upbringing plays the largest part, and if I had happened to have been born in a Christian home in a Christian region then I would probably have christian beliefs. As If I would probably have been a muslim if born in Pakistan.

[A common man]

Re: Ask a sensible atheist

I think you have things skewed. I know for a fact that Sister Lisa does not deny the existence of Allah, because Allah is just the misguided name for God mooslimes use as mooslimes don't recognise that Jesus is Christ - The Messiah, but rather they believe that Muhammad is the last prophet. ( Just as Mormons believe Joseph Smith is the last prophet). ALL of them believe in God. It is by Christianity and Salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, that you go to heaven.

You quite obviously know NOTHING about ANY religion. Whether the ONLY TRUTH ,being Christianity, or the false ones like mormonism and islam.

YIC

Mrs Phebe Dewitt.

When you say I know nothing about any religion you are very wrong.

The belief that "all worship the same god" is a popular one, and then it should not really matter if you are christian or muslim.

I admit to making a wrong assumption regarding Lisa's personal beliefs. Still, her reasoning made no sense whatsoever. If I tell you I have a schampoo bottle in my back yard that sits on bedrock and is 100 miles high, do you need to acknowledge it's existence before saying you do not believe it?