[Mary Etheldreda]

Re: Is Your Child a Godless Goth?

I was not hostile to you. I simply explained what Goth is and how many of the things on your "warnings" list are not true.

The fact that you refuse to read something that is well written with decent grammar, addressing all your misconceptions about the Goth subculture, implies that you cannot read well. It is also implicated by the fact that most of you seem to get something completely different out of my posts from what is actually there.

Seeing as I am Pagan and don't believe in him, I don't care what you think Jesus is going to do to me. However, I do care when people spread false information about the Goth scene. It gives people the wrong idea about us and can put us in danger.

Your only danger is meeting Jesus face to face and being held accountable to refusing to believe He was born of a virgin, died for the sins of those He loves, got better, rose up through the clouds to Heaven, is seated at the right hand of the Father, who is also Himself, and yet somehow lives in our hearts, and that He will come again to judge the world. If you fail to believe these things (which, lets face it, requires faith to believe), then the only thing you should care about is vicious will Satan be when he punishes you for all eternity?

[LadyMarshmallow]

Re: Is Your Child a Godless Goth?

Your only danger is meeting Jesus face to face and being held accountable to refusing to believe He was born of a virgin, died for the sins of those He loves, got better, rose up through the clouds to Heaven, is seated at the right hand of the Father, who is also Himself, and yet somehow lives in our hearts, and that He will come again to judge the world. If you fail to believe these things (which, lets face it, requires faith to believe), then the only thing you should care about is vicious will Satan be when he punishes you for all eternity?

Your fantasy stories are not a danger and they don't frighten me.

The danger to the Goth subculture is real. It is because of misconceptions like the ones posted on this website and mislabeling people like the trench coat mafia as Goth that people in the Goth scene have been physically attacked. I should not have to worry that if I take a bus into the city and walk down to the club to see a band I like I'm going to have some random person throw beer bottles at my head or run over and hit or kick me. Goths have done nothing to deserve this kind of intolerance and mistreatment.

[Elmer G. White]

Re: Is Your Child a Godless Goth?

I see you don't understand English very well. Odd considering you are speaking it.

The Germanic Goth tribes have been extinct for centuries, since around the time the last Goth king died in the early 8th century. And as I said, they have NOTHING at all to do with the modern Goth subculture. You are confusing things. A word can have more than one meaning and definition.

Modern Goths are not a nation or a race... No one is discarding any traditions because those "traditions" have absolutely nothing to do with Goth Rock and therefore nothing to do with us.
...non-Scripture-related stuff deleted... my emphasis on the parts that are somewhat interesting

Oh, but you do have an important thing in common with the original Goths you are pretending to be.

You both dismiss Jesus.

The ancient Goths even translated the NT but still failed to realize the True Nature™ of Jesus as God (John 1:1-4). They practiced Arianism, a heresy as bad as Catholicism or modern Gothicism. They claimed that Jesus was only the Son of God but not God Himself unlike stated in His Bestseller, the True Bible™.

John 10:30
I and my Father are one.

(That is "ik jah atta meins ain siju" in your Gothic.) You have also confessed that you have dismissed Jesus and everything that He presents (i.e., everything that is good and decent). Whatever you do may seem nice, but God knows that you're incapable of doing actual good (Psalms 53:1). Interestingly, John 10:30 was preserved in the Gothic Bible, which can only mean that they chose to discard Jesus deliberately, similar to your neo-Gothic imitation cult. The Result is obvious:

John 3:18
He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Again, the Gothic translation of this verse is lost if it was ever there in the first place. Perhaps the True Goths™ just ignored it. As you can see, they were very similar to you in the things that matter. What are the things that matter? Ecclesiastes 12:13 will tell you that (not available in Gothic, they only did the NT, another thing that apparently caused their ultimate downfall).


Yours in Christ,

Elmer

[LadyMarshmallow]

Re: Is Your Child a Godless Goth?

Oh, but you do have an important thing in common with the original Goths you are pretending to be.

You both dismiss Jesus.

The ancient Goths even translated the NT but still failed to realize the True Nature™ of Jesus as God (John 1:1-4). They practiced Arianism, a heresy as bad as Catholicism or modern Gothicism. They claimed that Jesus was only the Son of God but not God Himself unlike stated in His Bestseller, the True Bible™.

John 10:30
I and my Father are one.

(That is "ik jah atta meins ain siju" in your Gothic.) You have also confessed that you have dismissed Jesus and everything that He presents (i.e., everything that is good and decent). Whatever you do may seem nice, but God knows that you're incapable of doing actual good (Psalms 53:1). Interestingly, John 10:30 was preserved in the Gothic Bible, which can only mean that they chose to discard Jesus deliberately, similar to your neo-Gothic imitation cult. The Result is obvious:

John 3:18
He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Again, the Gothic translation of this verse is lost if it was ever there in the first place. Perhaps the True Goths™ just ignored it. As you can see, they were very similar to you in the things that matter. What are the things that matter? Ecclesiastes 12:13 will tell you that (not available in Gothic, they only did the NT, another thing that apparently caused their ultimate downfall).


Yours in Christ,

Elmer

No one is pretending to be part of an extinct Germanic tribe. Calling yourself a Goth is not pretending to be a Visigoth. It's saying you are a member of the Goth Rock subculture. A fan of Goth Rock is a literal definition of the word Goth. And being a fan of Goth rock has nothing to do with religion of any kind.

Please stop bringing up anything the Germanic tribes did or anything that relates to them. It is irrelevant as it has nothing to do with the modern definition of the word Goth and the Goth subculture. They are not similar to modern Goths as the only thing all modern Goths have in common is liking a specific genre of music and that didn't exist until 1979.

Yes, I dismiss Jesus. He was a good person who obviously lived, but I do not believe he is the son of any god. But that is because I am Pagan and follow the beliefs of my ancestors. It has nothing to do with Goth.

Jesus is not everything that is good and decent. You can be good and decent without knowing Jesus ever existed and without being a Christian. Christianity and morals are not mutually exclusive.

[Didymus Much]

Re: Is Your Child a Godless Goth?

...Yes, I dismiss Jesus. He was a good person who obviously lived...

"Obviously lived"? Really? Just what do you base that on?


And "good"?? Why not actually read the Bible for yourself, and then come back and let us know what you think of the "good" guy who promises to come back and kill (for starters) 1/3 of humanity with the sword coming out of His mouth?

...But that is because I am Pagan and follow the beliefs of my ancestors...

Oh, do tell.

[Basilissa]

Re: Is Your Child a Godless Goth?

I am Pagan and follow the beliefs of my ancestors. It has nothing to do with Goth.

Ooh?

In how many human sacrifices have you participated so far?

Because you know, human sacrifice was at the core of most if not all ancient pagan religions. So if you want to follow the beliefs of your ancestors, and not some fluffy-bunny New Age creation, you need to get your hands bloody ASAP.

[LadyMarshmallow]

Re: Is Your Child a Godless Goth?

Ooh?

In how many human sacrifices have you participated so far?

Because you know, human sacrifice was at the core of most if not all ancient pagan religions. So if you want to follow the beliefs of your ancestors, and not some fluffy-bunny New Age creation, you need to get your hands bloody ASAP.

Most contemporary documents to the actual Celtic and Norse religions were written by people who were trying to slander them. The actual known practices are things like throwing a coin into a well.

[Basilissa]

Re: Is Your Child a Godless Goth?

Most contemporary documents to the actual Celtic and Norse religions were written by people who were trying to slander them. The actual known practices are things like throwing a coin into a well.

That's not archaeology tells us, sweetie.

Norse human sacrifices:

http://en.natmus.dk/historical-knowledge/denmark/prehistoric-period-until-1050-ad/the-viking-age/religion-magic-death-and-rituals/human-sacrifices/

Celtic human sacrifices:

http://archive.archaeology.org/0201/etc/celtic.html

...and these are just the first pages that jump out from a very quick Google search.

Or are you suggesting that modern day archaeologists are also on a mission to slander ancient Norsemen and Celts?

[LadyMarshmallow]

Re: Is Your Child a Godless Goth?

That's not archaeology tells us, sweetie.

Norse human sacrifices:

http://en.natmus.dk/historical-knowledge/denmark/prehistoric-period-until-1050-ad/the-viking-age/religion-magic-death-and-rituals/human-sacrifices/

Celtic human sacrifices:

http://archive.archaeology.org/0201/etc/celtic.html

...and these are just the first pages that jump out from a very quick Google search.

Or are you suggesting that modern day archaeologists are also on a mission to slander ancient Norsemen and Celts?

All of that is just assumptions based on what was found. Almost all theories in every archaeological article has been contended by other historians and archaeologists. But again, this has nothing to do with Goth or why I'm here. I simply pointed out that me not believing in your god is because I am Pagan, not because I am goth.

[Alvin Moss]

Re: Is Your Child a Godless Goth?

All of that is just assumptions based on what was found. Almost all theories in every archaeological article has been contended by other historians and archaeologists. But again, this has nothing to do with Goth or why I'm here. I simply pointed out that me not believing in your god is because I am Pagan, not because I am goth.

Are you saying that the charred human bones found at these sites have a different explanation? What sort of sacrifices do you burn at your heathen Devil worshipping ceremonies? And why exactly are you here anyway?

[LadyMarshmallow]

Re: Is Your Child a Godless Goth?

Are you saying that the charred human bones found at these sites have a different explanation? What sort of sacrifices do you burn at your heathen Devil worshipping ceremonies? And why exactly are you here anyway?

They could very well have a different explanation.

Pagans may prick their finger, or provide the gods or goddesses with food, wine, things from nature, coins, things of sentimental value, gifts that represent things sacred to the god or goddess, etc.,

But again this has nothing to do with Goth. I've already explained why I am here. Multiple times. I am here because I am a Goth and do not appreciate people slandering the Goth scene and spreading false information that puts us in real physical danger so I corrected the false information and misconceptions listed here.

[Alvin Moss]

Re: Is Your Child a Godless Goth?

They could very well have a different explanation.

Like what?

[Basilissa]

Re: Is Your Child a Godless Goth?

All of that is just assumptions based on what was found.

It's called scientific evidence. It's the same scientific method the law enforcement uses to identify dead bodies, figure out how they died, and persecute their murderers. Except, in this case, the murderers are long dead and therefore impossible to persecute and punish.

Almost all theories in every archaeological article has been contended by other historians and archaeologists.

This is a very interesting hypothesis, however you need evidence to support it if you want anyone to accept it. And I will be happy to review such evidence if (and that is a very big if) you are able to produce it somehow. Which you won't be able to do because it is a really ridiculous claim that is impossible to defend.

I simply pointed out that me not believing in your god is because I am Pagan

No you aren't.

As I pointed out before, in order to be a real Pagan you would have to bury some human bodies occasionally. Since you seem to draw your idea of "paganism" on your perception of Norse and Celtic traditions (which is quite ironic given that these two ethnic groups were not that friendly to each other), you need to start dropping bodies in bogs and such. Your gods need that to ensure that the spring comes after the winter, that the sun rises in the morning, etc, etc. Ah, and have I mentioned, that when the leader of your group dies, you are supposed to kill and bury with him a large group pf attendants (concubines, warriors, servants)?

These are quite ridiculous and extremely cruel beliefs when you take a serious look at them, by actually reading up on existing and undisputable archaeological evidence. I fully agree with you that historical accounts are often skewed, and that goes for both the outsiders' accounts, which tend to paint everything in darker colors, and insiders' account, which tend to present everything in brighter colors. Living people (the ones who leave written accounts) lie. Dead people (the ones that tell their stories through their bodies and their contexts) do not lie.

In conclusion, read up.

Otherwise, you will never be a pagan but you will remain a pathetic New Ageish wannabe.

[LadyMarshmallow]

Re: Is Your Child a Godless Goth?

Goth has nothing to do with Satanism, self mutilation, drugs, Marilyn Manson, school shootings, homosexuality, etc.

Goths are fans of Goth Rock. People who enjoy listening to Bauhaus, Siouxsie and the Banshees, and Angels of Liberty. People who like Goth music. Nothing more. Nothing less.

[Alvin Moss]

Re: Is Your Child a Godless Goth?

Goth has nothing to do with Satanism, self mutilation, drugs, Marilyn Manson, school shootings, homosexuality, etc.

Then why are these sinful behaviors so closely associated with the Goths?