[Enigmatic Harpo Marx]

Re: So God gave us free will.

God even loved when he danced in his underwear! I think he killed one of their son's, from Basheba? And then he blessed the others. Hell could be wrong. I should dust the OT part off. Song of Soleman(sp) was a blessing too!

If you are wrong I won't be able to call you on it. It has been years since I've even picked up a Bible (let alone read the thing) and I've spent my more recent time trying to forget it.

Besides, whenever I even get close to one anymore my skin start itching and my eyes start burning....go figure.

[Unfalsifiable]

Re: So God gave us free will.

If god gave us free will, then he would not be omniescient, because he would not be able to determine our actions. If you try to argue that he can still be omniescient and still give us free will at the same time, that won't work. Because with free will, there are an infinite amount of possiblities that can happen. For instance if somebody chooses to become gay because of free will, god can't tell them whether thats right or wrong, because he gave them free will, so he would be questioning his own authority.

How foolish to fall into that trap.

If God gave us free will he could still be omnipotent BECAUSE HE WOULD BE OMNIPOTENANT! Do you understand what that means? He would be able to have free will and determinism at the same time if he liked. He is all powerful, we can't even HOPE to understand just how powerful he is. The infinite amount of possibilities with free will to us are nothing unto an omnipotent being.

Son, let me tell you this, if you are trying to argue that the existence of God is absurd as it certainly seems initially to a philosophically dumb human you do one thing: you set God up to break him down.

Let me lay out your argument.

If God is omnipotent and we have Free will undermined

God cannot be omnipotent

But that is bs, look what you did, you called God omnipotent, and if he is omnipotent of course he can give us free will and still be omnipotent, he can have whatever he likes, he is omnipotent! It doesn't have to make sense to us.

Assuming God's existence fails as a logical battle for the atheist.

[Bobby-Joe]

Re: So God gave us free will.

Maybe, although that was not my first impression I must say.

I think you are missing the full subtly of what Seeker is saying Harpo. Look at it this way; the key point God is so powerful free will among humans in meaningless. The problem for God is just. So He hates sin, He needs to punish it so He needs sinners. However just creating sinners toss into Hell would be evil. Instead He wisely justly created creators that are so inherently selfish that they would deserver to be tortured for eternity for merely existing.

After that it is a simple matter of creating a world were the creatures would have no reason to fear punishment and then let them do as what comes natural to them. Soon enough you have murder, sexual depravity and socialism. However since God is just He allowed a opening for some of these creatures to escape punishment, Jesus.

You see, there is no free-will and it is our fault.

[Skyknight]

Re: So God gave us free will.

If God detests sin, wouldn't the more logical path be to set up creation so sin wouldn't be possible? The last I heard, hatred means "do not want the hated thing to even exist". "Punish the hated thing" would be somewhere lower on the priority list.

Besides, the way you phrased that, you make it sound like God is more concerned with being able to inflict punishment than receiving love. How does such a being classify as "good" again? (Remember that good and evil are independent of God; omnipotence does not and cannot include redefining them. Never mind that it can't be that bad if omnipotence doesn't exist at all; you don't strictly have to be omnipotent to be able to thwart Satan, do you?)

[Skyknight]

Re: So God gave us free will.

And while we're on the subject...Would you say that God has free will?

[Nobar King]

Re: So God gave us free will.

No one is 'on the subject' of free will here. Some magic tard brought the issue up to try to embarass the Godly Baptists here. You will do well to abandon this path that you are on, and learn to let Jesus into your life.

[Bobby-Joe]

Re: So God gave us free will.

If God detests sin, wouldn't the more logical path be to set up creation so sin wouldn't be possible? The last I heard, hatred means "do not want the hated thing to even exist". "Punish the hated thing" would be somewhere lower on the priority list.

Besides, the way you phrased that, you make it sound like God is more concerned with being able to inflict punishment than receiving love. How does such a being classify as "good" again?

Justice is "good" friend. That's why God loves it. You are just interpreting this threw your selfish depravity. TRUE Christians love God because He is just.

(Remember that good and evil are independent of God; omnipotence does not and cannot include redefining them. Never mind that it can't be that bad if omnipotence doesn't exist at all; you don't strictly have to be omnipotent to be able to thwart Satan, do you?)

How can good or evil exist independent of God? As Isaiah 45:5 reminds us God created evil. I am not sure if I understand your’ last statement about evil but God does create evil too strong to resist; for example God hardened Pharaohs heart so he would persecute the Jews in Exodus. PRAISE His Holy name He choose not to do that all the time.

And while we're on the subject...Would you say that God has free will?

That is an interesting question and I have never considered it. In way it does appears He is bound by rules He created. This gets back to the question can God create a rock He can not move.

[Enigmatic Harpo Marx]

Re: So God gave us free will.

creators that are so inherently selfish that they would deserver to be tortured for eternity for merely existing.

Kind of makes you feel all warm inside.

After that it is a simple matter of creating a world were the creatures would have no reason to fear punishment and then let them do as what comes natural to them. Soon enough you have murder, sexual depravity and socialism. However since God is just He allowed a opening for some of these creatures to escape punishment, Jesus.

You see, there is no free-will and it is our fault.

That does pretty much cover it. Leave it to God to screw you over and still come out sitting blameless. Kudos God, kudos

[anon11]

Re: So God gave us free will.

does it say anything in the bible about mans free will and or the lack of?

[anon11]

Re: So God gave us free will.

Also we seem to have some conflict on opinion. How about some evidence (scripture is always a good one) to back up some of these theories. Without it they really seem to remain personal theories in either direction.

We don't really have a free will. God knows what we will chose when He created us due to His prefect knowledge. Free will is an illusion created by our limited human perspective.

God gave us free will so we could obey His every command.

Not so we coould fornicate with our same sex and piss on statues of Christ.

God did not want to create robots. He needed somebody to love him. That is why the free will. He knows the ones that will love him and the ones that won't, already.

He can do what the hell with his creation that he want's to do.

[Seeker]

Re: So God gave us free will.

does it say anything in the bible about mans free will and or the lack of?

Are you dumb or just stupid? Have you not heard or read Genesis?

[Seeker]

Re: So God gave us free will.

If you are wrong I won't be able to call you on it. It has been years since I've even picked up a Bible (let alone read the thing) and I've spent my more recent time trying to forget it.

Besides, whenever I even get close to one anymore my skin start itching and my eyes start burning....go figure.

Ugh, yeah, same. I miss your pussy cat avvey. It was cute.:p

[anon11]

Re: So God gave us free will.

Are you dumb or just stupid? Have you not heard or read Genesis?

For someone who's religious deity was tolerant you don't seem to act very much like him . Instead of flaming my post u could go ahead and attempt to enlighten me with a quote that says man has or doesn't have free will.

[Seeker]

Re: So God gave us free will.

For someone who's religious deity was tolerant you don't seem to act very much like him . Instead of flaming my post u could go ahead and attempt to enlighten me with a quote that says man has or doesn't have free will.

Deity tolerant? You got a lot to learn and you came to the right place. I did not flame your post whatsoever and I did try to enlighten you.

lets.start.slowly.again.

Okay, John 3:3 Verily,Verily I say to you, you must be born again to go to Heaven.

Genesis(do I gotta quote the whole thing?)

Do you not understand how sin came into the World by Adam and Eve? That was free will on a BBQ stick. It does not get better understanding than that. It started there and has not ended. He is the Alpha and Omega, beginning and end.

Do you have a favorite fruit that you are tempted by?

[Pastor Ezekiel]

Re: So God gave us free will.

For someone who's religious deity was tolerant you don't seem to act very much like him . Instead of flaming my post u could go ahead and attempt to enlighten me with a quote that says man has or doesn't have free will.

Where does it say in the Holy Bible that God is tolerant?

You might want to take a look at THIS.