[joe707]

Re: Angela's Introduction

I don’t think so. The passage says that a man who loves Jesus will reside with the Son and the Father. Through love. Is this an instruction? There is quite a difference between this relationship and one that demands obedience, as a master does his slave.

If a man abides not in Jesus, it is not Jesus who casts him into the fire. Nor is it the Father. Who does? It is clear in the passage. How do you react to this, compared to what is written in Deuteronomy or Exodus? I have seen it said elsewhere that there are no contradictions in the Bible. How do you account for that? Because there is a world of difference between obedience - between slavery - and the other kind of relationship mentioned here. Jesus knew it.

[Ezekiel Bathfire]

Re: Angela's Introduction

John 14:23. Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

But either way, it’s clearly not the master/slave relationship that came before. It’s very different to following orders,

The trouble you have here Joe is that you do not consider the alternative. Here, the alternative is that if you do not love Jesus, what will happen if you do not? – I think Sister JennyD explains that well:

It doesn't seem much different to me at all, Joe.

The servant may live in the Master's home.

John 15:

5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

In other words, Jesus loves only those who do as He instructs. All others are cut off and cast into the fire.

That seems clear to me, and if it doesn’t to you, Luke 19:27 makes it very clear indeed.

I don’t think so. The passage says that a man who loves Jesus will reside with the Son and the Father. Through love. Is this an instruction?

No, the passage in John makes it clear that love is conditional upon acceptance; it is an offer you can’t refuse. To refuse it is to condemn your soul to eternal torment.

Say I say to you, “Joe, follow me and have eternal life or reject me and I’ll kill you – what is the relationship? The offer is so good you can’t refuse but nevertheless, the freedom to reject the offer and suffer a terminal experience is there yet limited. Who has all the cards? Is there really any democracy in this? Do you really have a say in the matter? You know you are not equal to Christ – least I hope you do!

There is quite a difference between this relationship and one that demands obedience, as a master does his slave.

Yes, there is isn’t there. (You did look up that verse in Luke, didn’t you?) Slaves don’t usually get killed (they are valuable cargo) just beaten a bit.

If a man abides not in Jesus, it is not Jesus who casts him into the fire. Nor is it the Father.

I’m not sure where you get this idea. Did not God create everything – including Satan and Hell? Does not God have power over Satan? Who then does make the decision? A soul itself cannot make that decision. You say that the man, in life, makes a decision and may suffer the consequences. Well he might, but Who actually opens the Gates of Hell? Who condemns to Eternal Torture, Who actually does that? (The uppercase pronouns are a clue - read Revelations, particularly when Christ comes to slay the unworthy.)

Because there is a world of difference between obedience - between slavery - and the other kind of relationship mentioned here. Jesus knew it.

Yes He did, indeed He did; He is offering much when you die for a small payment now. Refuse and you are in big trouble with God… never a good thing.

Ah, Joe, you are one for trying aren't you? You are trying to defend all those lies people have told you about Jesus - the bits they never told you about God The Father and now I think True Christianity, in all its beauty is beginning to shed its light on you.

Bless you Joe, we'll make a believer of you yet!