[Jedediah]

Re: Is this an interesting place?

Gosh! I have no idea why you would think any of that about me! I certainly would try to put out the flames on your house if it was burning! I would try to save you from a speeding bus, too! If something was trying to hurt you and you were in immediate danger, I would be willing to risk my life to try to help you! But that's just me, and I wouldn't expect you to do the same. After all, you do hate me, as you said.

Pastor Sampson did not say he hated you. He asked why you think he hates you. Reading comprehension is clearly not your strong suit.

But I think we have some common ground to work with now.

We are overflowing with True Christian Love™ for the unsaved trash who come here and try to push their wickedness and false doctrines on us and tell us that we are wrong, but as True Christians™, we are protected by the full Armor of God and remain steadfast. Our pure, Christian love is precisely the reason that we rebuke unsaved trash and point out to them that they are spiraling out of control towards the lake of fire!

And yes, there are those who will not receive our message of love because they lack the discernment to recognize our love for what it is. We tell them that they are going to hell if they don't change, and they take it as a personal insult and don't recognize that we are trying to toss them a life preserver from the main deck of the boat to Heaven that we ride. If they would just read and live by the Holy Bible and let Jesus into their hearts, they would realize that we love them and we want them to join us in Heaven! And when it comes to winning souls for Christ, I take my queue straight from God' Word.

II Timothy 4:1-5
I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom; Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all long suffering and doctrine.
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry.

If your house was on fire while you slept inside, would you want me to tap on your front door and whisper to you, or would you rather me bust out your bedroom window and yell at the top of my lungs, "WAKE UP! IF YOU DON'T WAKE UP, YOU ARE GOING TO BURN!!!"

If we didn't love and care about you or any of the other unsaved trash who come here all but crying out for help, we wouldn't say a thing to you. We'd just let you continue on to hell, knowing full well that we will be in the bosom of Jesus when we die. But because we love you and the other unsaved trash, we rebuke you forcefully, in hopes that your souls are steered toward Heaven.

[EveningStarNM]

Re: Is this an interesting place?

NOW WAIT JUST A DARNED MINUTE!

Felicity just gave me yet another in fraction, this time for this message for "Denying the existence of Heaven/Hell/Noah's Flood/Angels/Talking Flaming Shrubs despite mountains of evidence". And it cost me 100 points (whatever those are)!

That's just it: those theories don't seem to be at all "bizarre". Once you understand a little math (which I suppose you would have to say is another of God's gifts to us), those theories begin to make perfect sense!

But I do think you're right that I have a decision to make, although I don't agree with how you framed it -- and you might not like the decision that I make. But I'm sure that you've made some decisions in your life that I wouldn't like much, either. And what was it that Jesus said? "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you". That was always my favorite thing in the Bible.

To each his own, I guess. Live and let live. You go your way and I'll go mine.

(Snipped Quote)

Well, I'm pretty sure that's what I've done. I mean, if you follow logic (another one of God's gifts to us), it gives us a pretty clear direction. That would certainly mean that God is directing our paths. It seems like logic would be an easy way for God to do that. And if there's one thing about God that I absolutely do trust, it's logic.

(Snipped Quote)

Well, now, that's where you lose me, because I think that God does want us to understand, and that God does provide the answers, but we have to look for them and accept them when we find them. Asking "why" is just the way we start down the path toward a better understanding of God, to "praise" God, so to speak.

(Snipped Quote)

I honestly don't know how it is possible to disobey God, when you get right down to it. One of his Laws, for instance, implies that you can't have an action without an equal and opposite reaction. No one has ever found a way around that Law, and it seems certain that no one ever will. All of the rest of the Laws are like that, too.

(Snipped Quote)

Now, look: God sure didn't tell us how to build harvesters, tractors, and trains in the Bible, and while we might not have needed them when there weren't so many of us, we sure do need them today if we're going to feed everybody, and we had to figure out how to build them starting, a long time ago, with nothing but rocks and sticks and the brains that God gave us!

(Snipped Quote)

You know, if I didn't know better, I'd say that that was pure genius on your part. But I don't see where the Bible says that we shouldn't learn how to build tractor with which to grow more food to feed the hungry or a telescope that can see billions of years into the universe's past.

The "simple" explanation seems to be that if we have a question then we should figure out how to answer it.

I deny that I denied any of those things in this message! I did not intend to deny any of those things! I did not even mention Heaven or Hell or Noah's Flood or Angels or Talking Flaming Shrubs in that message! There is not even a way to imply that I meant to deny any of those things in that message because I did not mean to deny any of those things in that message!

Did I get infracted because I did not talk about those things? Should I talk about them in every message in order to avoid denying them? How can I possibly obey the rules here if I don't know how I broke a rule, or even what the rules are????

Accusing people of doing things that they haven't done and had no intention of doing certainly seems like a very un-Christian thing to do.

I did not do what she said that I did, nor did I intend to do those things. Period!

[MitzaLizalor]

Re: Is this an interesting place?

Quote:
Orininally posted by MorningStarNM

…After all, God gave you free will, therefore I could only think that it was God's will that you have the opportunity to taste such a sandwich…

[EveningStarNM]

Re: Is this an interesting place?

Pastor Sampson did not say he hated you. He asked why you think he hates you. Reading comprehension is clearly not your strong suit.

Well, I admit that it's possible that I misinterpreted his question, but there is no doubt that his wording left the question ambiguous. Perhaps reading comprehension is not your strong suit.

But I think we have some common ground to work with now.

That's good to know! I'm always searching for ways to get along with others! Of course, sometimes people don't want to be friends. They just want to control other people and try to make others do what they want. But I'm not that kind of person. "Do unto others...", and all that. I wouldn't want others to try to dictate to me, so I don't try to dictate to them. After all, God gave each of us the ability to see and listen and learn what God might want us to learn and do. Who am I to decide for someone else what God has said to them or how God has said it? I'm certainly not qualified to speak for God, that's for sure! God seems to be able to do that very well without my help. Besides, I could be wrong about what God has said to others.

We are overflowing with True Christian Love™ for the unsaved trash who come here and try to push their wickedness and false doctrines on us and tell us that we are wrong, but as True Christians™, we are protected by the full Armor of God and remain steadfast. Our pure, Christian love is precisely the reason that we rebuke unsaved trash and point out to them that they are spiraling out of control towards the lake of fire!

Well, I certainly don't object to that. I wouldn't presume to tell anyone here what doctrine they should follow. And I certainly don't want to be wicked toward anyone. However, I must admit that I don't feel very loved by anyone here, and I've learned that it's never a good idea to trust someone who says that they love you when there is no evidence to believe that they do. I have a fairly good understanding of what love is and what it looks like, so, as all people do with regard to love, I'll be the one to decide if someone actually does love me or not.

And yes, there are those who will not receive our message of love because they lack the discernment to recognize our love for what it is. We tell them that they are going to hell if they don't change, and they take it as a personal insult and don't recognize that we are trying to toss them a life preserver from the main deck of the boat to Heaven that we ride. If they would just read and live by the Holy Bible and let Jesus into their hearts, they would realize that we love them and we want them to join us in Heaven! And when it comes to winning souls for Christ, I take my queue straight from God' Word.

II Timothy 4:1-5
I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom; Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all long suffering and doctrine.
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry.

I have to admit that I've been told that I'm going to Hell, but I've never felt insulted by it. I mean, sure, Hell doesn't sound like a place where I would want to spend eternity. But I've just never found a reason to feel insulted when told that I'm going to Hell. I'm pretty sure that the Bible says that God will be making any judgements that have to be made in that regard. It's a sure bet that only God can send someone to Hell and that no mere human can. So I have little confidence in and take no offense from any other human who threatens me with going to Hell.

Besides, no one can ever know for certain what is in someone else's head, all we can ever really do is to observe as best as we can and hope that what we observe is actually what is going on inside them. I'll let you know just as soon as I observe any love here. I apologize, but that's the best that I can do, unless I suddenly have the power of telepathy (which I sincerely doubt any human or other creature has ever had).

If your house was on fire while you slept inside, would you want me to tap on your front door and whisper to you, or would you rather me bust out your bedroom window and yell at the top of my lungs, "WAKE UP! IF YOU DON'T WAKE UP, YOU ARE GOING TO BURN!!!"

If we didn't love and care about you or any of the other unsaved trash who come here all but crying out for help, we wouldn't say a thing to you. We'd just let you continue on to hell, knowing full well that we will be in the bosom of Jesus when we die. But because we love you and the other unsaved trash, we rebuke you forcefully, in hopes that your souls are steered toward Heaven.

I would do those things no matter how I felt about someone, whether I loved them or not. Wouldn't you? I do try to love everyone, though.

But I do hope you understand that I certainly am asking for your help -- and I really want it! I need your help to understand what you're talking about. If some of my questions and statments seem a bit challenging it's simply because I'm trying to get a better understanding of what it is that you're saying. Not, of course, that anything I say could ever be an actual challenge for you, right? I'm sure that you don't feel at all challenged by anything that I've said. Well, at least, I hope not.

[EveningStarNM]

Re: Is this an interesting place?

Quote:
Originally posted by MitzyTaylor

Quote:
Orininally posted by MorningStarNM

…After all, God gave you free will, therefore I could only think that it was God's will that you have the opportunity to taste such a sandwich…

Yes? I'll be grateful if you would elaborate. Was I wrong?

Maybe I'm misreading this, but Deuteronomy 30:15 seems to say pretty clearly that it's up to each person to "choose". And John 15:7 does seem to imply that it's a choice each person has to make as to whether or not they will "abide".

That certainly sounds like free will to me. And I keep hearing that God created us, so God had to give it to us, right?

But maybe I'm wrong.

[MitzaLizalor]

Re: Is this an interesting place?

Originally posted by EveningStarNM

Originally posted by Jedediah
Proverbs 3:5-6
Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.
In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.

…Well, I'm pretty sure that's what I've done. I mean, if you follow logic (another one of God's gifts to us), it gives us a pretty clear direction.

The problem is that our understanding is limited: it gives rise to limited "logic" whereas God's understanding is not limited. You might compare two computers, one a 1980's 8bit unit, the other a current state-of-the-art 8xQuadcore 64bit maxRAM setup with full pro-3D graphics pipeline.

Anything the lesser unit would handle could run on the modern computer.
But very few programs written for the 64bit OS could be "understood" by the 8bit unit.

Similarly any thoughts of ours can be understood by God in an instant, but unless He translates His thoughts into a form we can understand, they will be utterly incomprehensible to us.

God understands that - and unlike the 64bit machine (which is limited) He is without any limits at all. This is what He has told us:

Proverbs 16:25 There is a way that seemeth right vnto a man; but the end thereof are the wayes of death.
©1611

That would certainly mean that God is directing our paths. It seems like logic would be an easy way for God to do that. And if there's one thing about God that I absolutely do trust, it's logic.

Sound logic may be reliable, but human logic is not sound. Chapter 12 expresses it a little more forcefully:

Proverbs 12:15 The way of a foole is right in his owne eyes: but he that hearkeneth vnto counsell, is wise.
©1611

…I honestly don't know how it is possible to disobey God, when you get right down to it.

Then how come so many people have been blighted, killed and sent to Hell for disobeying Him?

…One of his Laws, for instance, implies that you can't have an action without an equal and opposite reaction.

That is not one of God's Laws, it is one of Isaac Newton's.
Neither are the "laws of nature" Laws which "nature" obeys: they are just a description of what we happen to observe. Here. Now.

No one has ever found a way around that Law, and it seems certain that no one ever will. All of the rest of the Laws are like that, too.

It's not "the laws" that are like that - IT'S US.

That is why God has told us to: Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.

And that is what you are not doing when you rely on logic alone.

[Jedediah]

Re: Is this an interesting place?

Yes? I'll be grateful if you would elaborate. Was I wrong?

Maybe I'm misreading this, but Deuteronomy 30:15 seems to say pretty clearly that it's up to each person to "choose". And John 15:7 does seem to imply that it's a choice each person has to make as to whether or not they will "abide".

That certainly sounds like free will to me. And I keep hearing that God created us, so God had to give it to us, right?

But maybe I'm wrong.

You are wrong, and your twisting of Scripture is very unbecoming.

Free will is an un-Biblical myth.

John 15:16
Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

Romans 9:15-16
For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

Ephesians 1:11
In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

God chooses who will stand among His elect and who is preordained to eternal torments from the time before they are even a glimmer in their parents' eyes. We merely act in accordance with the path God has laid out for us. That is why I abide in righteousness and perfection, while you choose to wallow in sin and depredation.

John 6:64-65
But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

Romans 9:21
Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

Jude 1:4
For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

In fact, if God does not want you in Heaven, He will see to it Himself that you become deluded and blind to His Truth.

II Thessalonians 2:11-13
And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

That seems pretty clear to me. But I'm sure that you reject these Bible Facts just like you reject anything else in God's Word that doesn't conform with your vain, twisted sense of "morality."

[Pastor Ezekiel]

Re: Is this an interesting place?

"Evening star" might be a demon.

[Jedediah]

Re: Is this an interesting place?

The Holy Spirit is telling me that he is probably possessed, at the very least. I am going to go pray for him now.

[Zechariah Smyth]

Re: Is this an interesting place?

But I do hope you understand that I certainly am asking for your help -- and I really want it! I need your help to understand what you're talking about. If some of my questions and statments seem a bit challenging it's simply because I'm trying to get a better understanding of what it is that you're saying. Not, of course, that anything I say could ever be an actual challenge for you, right? I'm sure that you don't feel at all challenged by anything that I've said. Well, at least, I hope not.

You're almost there...you keep dancing around the answers to your questions, but you are hesitant to make that final leap.

Allow me to tell you a story:

In a previous job, I had to climb towers. Most of the time it was smaller ones, anywhere from 75 feet to around 250 feet or so.

But sometimes I climbed some incredibly tall ones...I'm talking the huge towers, 600, 800, 1000 feet plus. There is more money to be made on the taller ones, so you look forward to them.

Plus the view is spectacular!

There are many built-in safeguards, and you are using a state-of-the-art harness (with a "deceleration" line ) .

Most towers built in the last few years have features that make climbing a lot safer than in the past, from automatic clip-in channels to safer platforms to more robust guy wires to etc. etc.

But, no matter how they build the tower and no matter how newfangled the climbing gear gets, there are always these "transitions" where you have to simply let go of one thing and grab a hold of another.

This can be the change from one step or rung system to another, or a change of the angle of the face of the tower, or from a leg to platform, or from a platform to an extension... whatever.

You have to have faith in your abilities and your equipment, and a little blind faith in the things you can't control, like the engineer who spec'ed the tower, the people who constructed it, the materials used, the age and weathering of the structure, etc.

But there is that one pinpoint in time where you have to let go, and then grab the next part.

Yours in Christ,

Zechariah Smyth

[EveningStarNM]

Re: Is this an interesting place?

The problem is that our understanding is limited: it gives rise to limited "logic" whereas God's understanding is not limited. You might compare two computers, one a 1980's 8bit unit, the other a current state-of-the-art 8xQuadcore 64bit maxRAM setup with full pro-3D graphics pipeline.

Anything the lesser unit would handle could run on the modern computer.
But very few programs written for the 64bit OS could be "understood" by the 8bit unit.

Similarly any thoughts of ours can be understood by God in an instant, but unless He translates His thoughts into a form we can understand, they will be utterly incomprehensible to us.

God understands that - and unlike the 64bit machine (which is limited) He is without any limits at all.

Now THAT I understand! Thank you! I've earned my living in the computer trade for thirty years, and I have to say that is an excellent analogy. And I am certain that we can't possibly understand God without God's help. Fortunately, God is always there when we need understanding. We just have to be willing to listen, right?

This is what He has told us:

Proverbs 16:25 There is a way that seemeth right vnto a man; but the end thereof are the wayes of death.
©1611

Sound logic may be reliable, but human logic is not sound. Chapter 12 expresses it a little more forcefully:

Proverbs 12:15 The way of a foole is right in his owne eyes: but he that hearkeneth vnto counsell, is wise.
©1611

Well, sure, people make mistakes all the time that end in their deaths.

Then how come so many people have been blighted, killed and sent to Hell for disobeying Him?

You're asking me???? I've never been to Hell. How many people are in Hell, anyway? Is there a list that we can read somewhere of the names of people that are in Hell and their infractions? Has there been a census of Hell that I don't know about?

THAT would be interesting to see! I'll bet we would learn a lot from it. At any rate, God has certainly not shown me a list of people who have been "blighted, killed, and sent to Hell for disobeying Him". I'm the wrong person to ask that question to.

That is not one of God's Laws, it is one of Isaac Newton's.
Neither are the "laws of nature" Laws which "nature" obeys: they are just a description of what we happen to observe. Here. Now.

It's not "the laws" that are like that - IT'S US.

That is why God has told us to: Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.

And that is what you are not doing when you rely on logic alone.

I don't understand the difference. Newton said that he merely discovered the law. In the end, he said that the only explanation he could come up with regarding where those laws came from was that they came from God. He was a sincere believer in God, and he's been criticized by many scientists for that belief. Now, maybe he was wrong, and it certainly seems like he was since so many questions that he thought were unanswerable have since been answered. But it seems to me (and I could be wrong, too) that since God, being The Creator, created nature, God also had to create the laws that nature obeys. I mean, it's not like nature has a legislature where it votes on what it's laws will be. And it's not like nature can decide to not obey one of those laws, either. At least, I've never heard of any trees going to Hell for breaking a law. I've never even heard of a tree breaking a law.

But, like I said, I don't understand the difference.

[Pastor William Nathaniel Sampson]

Re: Is this an interesting place?

But maybe I'm wrong.

But maybe you are. Read Romans 9 and get back to us.

There is no free will. There is only what God decides. Only those who are predestined get into Heaven.

11(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth; )
12It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
13As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
14What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
15For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
17For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

[EveningStarNM]

Re: Is this an interesting place?

"Evening star" might be a demon.

Well, for that matter I "might" be an angel sent here to test you. However, I am neither one of those things. I'm just another flesh and blood human being born to a mother and father who, themselves, were born to mothers and fathers. In fact, my mother has spent a lot of her retirement researching our lineage, and she's found that we've descended from other human beings for at least 430 years. So I'm pretty confident that only human mothers and fathers are in my ancestry or were involved in my conception.

[Pastor William Nathaniel Sampson]

Re: Is this an interesting place?

Now THAT I understand! Thank you! I've earned my living in the computer trade for thirty years, and I have to say that is an excellent analogy. And I am certain that we can't possibly understand God without God's help. Fortunately, God is always there when we need understanding. We just have to be willing to listen, right?

More like when we read. There are too many false Christians running around out there who are willing to forsake the Bible's important lessons about such things as homosexuality, in favor for what they think God wants from them. They substitute that voice over Bible study.

Acts 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

[EveningStarNM]

Re: Is this an interesting place?

But maybe you are. Read Romans 9 and get back to us.

There is no free will. There is only what God decides. Only those who are predestined get into Heaven.

11(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth; )
12It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
13As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
14What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
15For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
17For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

Yes, verses 16-18, in particular, do seem to be very clear. It's not our desire or anything that we do that matters. It all depends on what God decides.

That seems to settle the matter.

Hmm. There doesn't seem to be anything left to talk about.