[Ezekiel Bathfire]

As most of you, I am regularly found reading the Psalms or listening to them from “Zeke Reads the Holy Psalms” CD (available from Landover Church - now with free “Valley of Death”, flashlight and keyring) and I was struck by the number of requests to the Lord to smite the Psalmist’s enemies/enemy.

Psalms 3:7, Psalms 5:8, Psalms 6:7, Psalms 6:10, Psalms 7:6, Psalms 7:4, Psalms 7:5, Psalms 8:2, Psalms 8:2, Psalms 9:3, Psalms 9:6, Psalms 10:5, Psalms 13:2, Psalms 13:4, Psalms 17:9, Psalms 18:3, Psalms 18:37, Psalms 18:40, Psalms 18:48, Psalms 18:17, Psalms 21:8, Psalms 23:5, Psalms 25:2, Psalms 25:19, Psalms 27:2, Psalms 27:6, Psalms 27:11, Psalms 27:12, Psalms 31:11, Psalms 31:15, Psalms 31:8, Psalms 35:19, Psalms 37:20, Psalms 38:19, Psalms 41:2, Psalms 41:5, Psalms 41:11, Psalms 42:10, Psalms 42:9, Psalms 43:2, Psalms 44:5, Psalms 44:7, Psalms 44:10, Psalms 44:16, Psalms 45:5, Psalms 54:5, Psalms 54:7, Psalms 55:3, Psalms 55:12, Psalms 56:2, Psalms 56:9, Psalms: 59:1, Psalms 59:10, Psalms 60:12, Psalms 61:3, Psalms 64:1, Psalms 66:3, Psalms 68:1, Psalms 68:21, Psalms 68:23, Psalms 69:4, Psalms 69:18, Psalms 71:10, Psalms 72:9, Psalms 74:4, Psalms 74:23, Psalms 74:3, Psalms 74:10, Psalms 74:18, Psalms 78:53, Psalms 78:66, Psalms 78:42, Psalms 78:61, Psalms 80:6, Psalms 81:14, Psalms 83:2, Psalms 89:10, Psalms 89:42, Psalms 89:51, Psalms 89:22, Psalms 92:9, Psalms 92:11, Psalms 97:3, Psalms 102:8, Psalms 105:24, Psalms 106:11, Psalms 106:42, Psalms 106:10, Psalms 107:2, Psalms 108:13, Psalms 110:1, Psalms 110:2, Psalms 112:8, Psalms 119:98, Psalms 119:139, Psalms 119:157, Psalms 127:5, Psalms 132:18, Psalms 136:24, Psalms 138:7, Psalms 139:20, Psalms 139:22, Psalms 143:9, Psalms 143:12, Psalms 143:3.

There are 150 chapters of Psalms and 105 requests for smiting or the need to smite someone. This says something, doesn’t it?

Now, at this stage, I hear your womenfolk say “But what about Jesus? Didn’t he say
“Matt:22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
[38] This is the first and great commandment.
[39] And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
[40] On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.”

If you heard it too, remind your womenfolk that the word in that sentence is “neighbor” not “enemy” – if you are living next door to your, or God’s enemy, you are not living in Landover and there is little help for your soul.

I suppose that there are still womenfolk who will then think “Yes, but what about
M't:5:43: Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
M't:5:44: But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;”?

(I have no ideas how such women managed to find men willing to marry them: Proverb 21:9 applies.)

Well, we do not have to move far in The Bible to find out what Jesus meant:
Lu:10:19: Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.
Ro:12:19: Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.
Ro:12:20: Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head.

The passage in Romans is, of course a close, but not an exact, repeat of
Proverb 25:21: If thine enemy be hungry, give him bread to eat; and if he be thirsty, give him water to drink:
Proverb 25:22: For thou shalt heap coals of fire upon his head, and the LORD shall reward thee.

Luke confirms God’s position in defeating your enemy – that is what He does, and Romans/Psalms is positively a genius stroke: can you imagine what having coals of fire heaped on your head is like? A painful smiting. A taste of the eternal flames of Hellfire! Smiting your enemy is God’s answer.

So let’s look together at Romans/Psalms and compare them – there can be no contradictions in the Bible:

Romans says that God will smite your enemy, even if you are kind to him and, whatever you do, your enemy will have coals heaped upon his head – i.e. will go to Hell.

The Psalmist says that being kind to your enemy will cause the Lord to give you a reward, and that reward will be God putting burning coals on your enemy’s head -> He will be thrown in the Pits of Hell.

Now I have spent a lot of time explaining the obvious to women! A thankless task, and I would remind the menfolk of 1 Corinthians 14:34-35! As a consequence, I have run out of time and I will have to return to this topic of vengeance, smiting and the Psalms at a later date.

[Dana723]

Thank you for explaining it so that even a woman can understand it! I know we are most frustrating, but it is a patient man who takes time to do so!

I will ask my husband if I can order these Psalms as read by Pastor Zeke. I imagine he has such dulcet, deep, soothing tones that it would put one right to sleep

[MitzaLizalor]

So when (in order for them to be disciples of Jesus) my children hate me, it's correct for me to do good to them (because they hate me) but when I feed a hungry enemy that in itself is a form of punishment.

Is that because Jesus could have chosen any particular enemy for Salvation at some future date I don't know about – but if He hasn't then when He returns Jesus will kill the wretch anyway?

[Ezekiel Bathfire]

Originally Posted by MitzaLizalor

So when (in order for them to be disciples of Jesus) my children hate me, it's correct for me to do good to them (because they hate me)

This is simply not at all what has been said, by anyone at any time. Children are ordered to respect their parents and therefore they do - In all my experience, I have never seen a disobedient child of a True Christian as every such child has already read Proverbs 13:24 which, in its wording, implies a certain randomness to the beatings. This is wise because it reminds them what a beating is – and they will wish to avoid justifying one.

For the rest there is
Ex:20:12: Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.

The bolded part was rendered colloquially by Ahrend Nordqvist, in his 1912 Paper, “Budene: forbannelse og død”[The Commandments: Damnation and Death] from the original Aramaic as “So you live to see your next birthday.”

but when I feed a hungry enemy that in itself is a form of punishment.

I suppose it is a question of what you feed him. A diet of burning coals on his head is none too pleasant.

Is that because Jesus could have chosen any particular enemy for Salvation at some future date I don't know about

I am unclear as to whether you don't know about Jesus's enemies or whether you don't know about the date.


If I may take the second part first - nobody knows the date - Jesus will come "like a thief in the night".


Jesus has already chosen enemies - there is a whole list of people that God Hates.


There is another category that He hates too - these are outlined in Ro:9:21.


However, as you are not a Psalmist, none of this has anything to do with the Psalmist or his preoccupation with having God smite the Palmist's enemies, and thus the question of whether praying for evil is permitted.


Unfortunately, I have run out of time again and will have to address this important question some other time.



– but if He hasn't then when He returns Jesus will kill the wretch anyway?[/QUOTE]

[MitzaLizalor]

Thank you for that information. I was not suggesting that children should disobey their parents, just that they should hate them. Otherwise they could not be Christ's disciples. In the Parable of the Banquet a contrast is drawn between those who were invited (but who made excuses) and the poor, the maimed, the halt and the blind who were only too happy to attend a banquet.

Luke 14:23-26 And the lord said unto the servant, Go out into the highways and hedges, and compel them to come in, that my house may be filled. For I say unto you, That none of those men which were bidden shall taste of my supper. And there went great multitudes with him: and he turned, and said unto them, If any man come to me, and hate not his father and mother and wife and children and brethren and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

This seems completely consistent with Romans, Proverbs and Psalms:

Psalm 94:1-2 O LORD God, to whom vengeance belongeth; O God, to whom vengeance belongeth, shew thyself. Lift up thyself, thou judge of the earth: render a reward to the proud.

Psalm 140:8-12 Grant not, O LORD, the desires of the wicked: further not his wicked device; lest they exalt themselves. Selah. As for the head of those that compass me about, let the mischief of their own lips cover them. Let burning coals fall upon them: let them be cast into the fire; into deep pits, that they rise not up again. Let not an evil speaker be established in the earth: evil shall hunt the violent man to overthrow him. I know that the LORD will maintain the cause of the afflicted and the right of the poor.

The poor and afflicted are referred to by God again in the Parable of the Banquet after which He commands children to hate their parents. Hate, respect and obey. In your post you've pointed out an alternative to following God's instructions. Eternity in The Pits.

Proverbs 25:21-22 If thine enemy be hungry, give him bread to eat; and if he be thirsty, give him water to drink: for thou shalt heap coals.of.fire upon his head, and the LORD shall reward thee.

Romans 12:19c-20 Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord. Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals.of.fire on his head.

[Ezekiel Bathfire]

Originally Posted by MitzaLizalor

Thank you for that information. I was not suggesting that children should disobey their parents, just that they should hate them. Otherwise they could not be Christ's disciples.

You have lost me completely. I have explained that children should honor their parents and it is difficult to see how they can honor them while disobeying them.

In the Parable of the Banquet a contrast is drawn between those who were invited (but who made excuses) and the poor, the maimed, the halt and the blind who were only too happy to attend a banquet.

Luke 14:23-26 …If any man come to me, and hate not his father and mother and wife and children and brethren and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

Well, you seem to have the same Bible as I, and the passage is both entertaining and instructive, yet I cannot see anything in Luke to puzzle over. Surely, you have been in a position where you hated something but did it anyway. Or perhaps you had to work for someone you detested but worked for them anyway, and treated them with respect, despite your feelings?

This seems completely consistent with Romans, Proverbs and Psalms:Psalm 94:1-2, Psalm 140:8-12

As the Bible is consistent and inerrant this is not surprising.

In your post you've pointed out an alternative to following God's instructions. Eternity in The Pits: Proverbs 25:21-22 Romans 12:19-20

No – this is not the alternative – it is the result of following God’s instructions.


After years of pestering God to smite his enemies, we never find out if the Psalmist;s enemies were smited. (He probably gave up and worshiped brazen images.) Little did he know that God had heard his prayers and that Jesus would come along and inspire Paul. Paul would then write Romans and say that, after a lot of consideration, your enemies will, henceforth, be smitten with a great and Godly smitance! When they die, they will go to Hell.
We are the heirs to the Psalmist – God has dealt with all our enemies.

[MitzaLizalor]

Originally Posted by Ezekiel Bathfire

You have lost me completely. I have explained that children should honor their parents and it is difficult to see how they can honor them while disobeying them.

Yes, they are commanded to obey and hate their parents. There is no contradiction that I can see.

No – this is not the alternative – it is the result of following God’s instructions.

As I understood it there are two alternatives.

1: Following God's instructions, in which case one would not end up in Hell or The Pit forever.

2: Not following God's instructions in which case the result would be Hell forever.

I'm glad that The Bible is consistent and that I can now see your point. Additionally, God pointed out that it's not necessary for Christians to kill enemies because Jesus will deal with them when He returns and in the meantime (as described in Proverbs and Romans) if we feed our enemies that has the effect of heaping coals upon their head. Perhaps that would be because they'd feel embarrassed when we showed them kindness?

But the reason doesn't matter.

We do it because we're following God’s instructions.

People who don't follow God's instructions finish up in Hell.

How they (the people who don't follow God's instructions) actually get there (Hell, Gehenna, Hades, The Pit, The Lake of Fire, Perdition and everlasting torment) is incidental.