[Meek and Humble]

Re: God HATES Rational Thinking!

These scriptures explain this for you.

No, they don't.

Jeremiah 1:5 "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations."

Isaiah 49:1 Listen to me, you islands; hear this, you distant nations: Before I was born the LORD called me; from my birth he has made mention of my name.

This scripture says man is mortal.

The scriptures say the flesh is mortal. What about the spirit?

I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ (1 Thessalonians 5:23).



For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow (body), and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart (Hebrews 4:12).


“There is a spirit in man; and the inspiration of the Almighty giveth them understanding” (Job 32:8).



If “spirit” meant merely “breath,” God certainly would not deal with it as a personality. He is called “The God of the spirits of all flesh” (Numbers 16:22), and “the Father of spirits” (Hebrews 12:9).


“For God is my witness, Whom I serve with my spirit in the Gospel” (Romans 1:9)


Abstain from fleshly lusts which war against the soul (Peter 2:11).

[epignosis]

Re: God HATES Rational Thinking!

The scriptures say the flesh is mortal. What about the spirit?

I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ (1 Thessalonians 5:23)

Ne′phesh comes from a root meaning “breathe” and in a literal sense ne′phesh could be rendered as “a breather.” Koehler and Baumgartner’s Lexicon in Veteris Testamenti Libros (Leiden, 1958, p. 627) defines it as: “the breathing substance, making man a[nd] animal living beings Gn 1, 20, the soul (strictly distinct from the greek notion of soul) the seat of which is the blood Gn 9, 4f Lv 17,*11 Dt 12,*23: (249 X) .*.*. soul = living being, individual, person.”
As for the Greek word psy‧khe′, Greek-English lexicons give such definitions as “life,” and “the conscious self or personality as centre of emotions, desires, and affections,” “a living being,” and they show that even in non-Biblical Greek works the term was used “of animals.” Of course, such sources, treating as they do primarily of classical Greek writings, include all the meanings that the pagan Greek philosophers gave to the word, including that of “departed spirit,” “the immaterial and immortal soul,” “the spirit of the universe,” and “the immaterial principle of movement and life.” Some of the pagan philosophers taught that the soul emerged from the body at death, the term psy‧khe′ was also applied to the “butterfly or moth,” which creatures go through a metamorphosis, changing from caterpillar to winged creature.—Liddell and Scott’s Greek-English Lexicon, revised by H.*Jones, 1968, pp. 2026, 2027; Donnegan’s New Greek and English Lexicon, 1836, p. 1404.


Joshua 11:11 (King James Version)

11And they smote all the souls that were therein with the edge of the sword, utterly destroying them: there was not any left to breathe: and he burnt Hazor with fire.


The soul is just the life you have.


Ezekiel 18:4 (King James Version)

4Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

To say that anything survives death, like a soul, is in contradiction of the scriptures. That is also why 'Hell Fire' is symbolic.
Some are resurrected by God to heaven as spirit creatures, but most, are resurrected to the earth. And the ones that are not resurrected, are going into the 'lake of fire' which is the second death. (no resurrection) just death.
This is how you get the bible to interpret itself, without contradictions.
Man was created for the earth. That is where he is going to be resurrected to. ( only a sealed number are resurrected to heaven as a spirit creatures. and their purpose is to rule with Jesus.) Who are they going to rule? Those that are on the earth.


Everything is very rational.

[Pastor William Nathaniel Sampson]

Re: God HATES Rational Thinking!

Ne′phesh comes from a root meaning “breathe” and in a literal sense ne′phesh could be rendered as “a breather.” Koehler and Baumgartner’s Lexicon in Veteris Testamenti Libros (Leiden, 1958, p. 627) defines it as: “the breathing substance, making man a[nd] animal living beings Gn 1, 20, the soul (strictly distinct from the greek notion of soul) the seat of which is the blood Gn 9, 4f Lv 17,*11 Dt 12,*23: (249 X) .*.*. soul = living being, individual, person.”
As for the Greek word psy‧khe′, Greek-English lexicons give such definitions as “life,” and “the conscious self or personality as centre of emotions, desires, and affections,” “a living being,” and they show that even in non-Biblical Greek works the term was used “of animals.” Of course, such sources, treating as they do primarily of classical Greek writings, include all the meanings that the pagan Greek philosophers gave to the word, including that of “departed spirit,” “the immaterial and immortal soul,” “the spirit of the universe,” and “the immaterial principle of movement and life.” Some of the pagan philosophers taught that the soul emerged from the body at death, the term psy‧khe′ was also applied to the “butterfly or moth,” which creatures go through a metamorphosis, changing from caterpillar to winged creature.—Liddell and Scott’s Greek-English Lexicon, revised by H.*Jones, 1968, pp. 2026, 2027; Donnegan’s New Greek and English Lexicon, 1836, p. 1404.

Quit copying and pasting footnotes from the Jerusalem Bible.

What does Ne′phesh have to do with the New Testament verse my brother posted?

[epignosis]

Re: God HATES Rational Thinking!

Quit copying and pasting footnotes from the Jerusalem Bible.

What does Ne′phesh have to do with the New Testament verse my brother posted?

The basic understanding of what happens when we die, what is a soul ,and what is the resurrection etc. does not change in the bible, that is so with the NT as well. Really it is a mistake to say OT and NT because the bible is really one book , made up, of writings from about 39 different writers.
We want the understanding from the whole bible, and what the bible says before Jesus came, explains many of the basic truths.

[Bobby-Joe]

Re: God HATES Rational Thinking!

The basic understanding of what happens when we die, what is a soul ,and what is the resurrection etc. does not change in the bible, that is so with the NT as well. Really it is a mistake to say OT and NT because the bible is really one book , made up, of writings from about 39 different writers whom God used as human pens.
We want the understanding from the whole bible, and what the bible says before Jesus came, explains many of the basic truths.

Corrected your mistake friend.

[Pastor William Nathaniel Sampson]

Re: God HATES Rational Thinking!

The basic understanding of what happens when we die, what is a soul ,and what is the resurrection etc. does not change in the bible, that is so with the NT as well.

What you quoted has nothing to do with what Brother Basher posted. I don't care what your heretical footnotes say.

Really it is a mistake to say OT and NT because the bible is really one book , made up, of writings from about 39 different writers.

Maybe because they are written in two completely different languages, you mongoloid.

You cannot say a Hebrew word applies to a Greek text.

[epignosis]

Re: God HATES Rational Thinking!

What you quoted has nothing to do with what Brother Basher posted. I don't care what your heretical footnotes say.


Maybe because they are written in two completely different languages, you mongoloid.

You cannot say a Hebrew word applies to a Greek text.

Because of the different languages , it is important to understand the original meaning. Even in the same language,the meaning of words can change over a period of time. The pagan Greek philosophers gave to the word,( soul) including that of “departed spirit, etc. Has nothing to do with the Hebrew meaning. If we want an accurate understanding, then this is important.
And no I don't live in Mongolia.

[Meek and Humble]

Re: God HATES Rational Thinking!

Ne′phesh comes from a root meaning “breathe” and in a literal sense ne′phesh could be rendered as “a breather.” Koehler and Baumgartner’s Lexicon in Veteris Testamenti Libros (Leiden, 1958, p. 627) defines it as: “the breathing substance, making man a[nd] animal living beings Gn 1, 20, the soul (strictly distinct from the greek notion of soul) the seat of which is the blood Gn 9, 4f Lv 17,*11 Dt 12,*23: (249 X) .*.*. soul = living being, individual, person.”

ARGUMENT: That death is a state of unconsciousness is clear from such passages as Psalm 6:5; 88:10,11; 115:17; Eccl 9:5,10. The dead are unconscious and are incapable of knowledge, wisdom or activity.

ANSWER: First, in such places as Psalm 6:5; 88:10,11; 115:17, the psalmist used those Hebrew words which are virtually always used in respect to public worship in the house of God in the midst of the congregation. The Hebraist, John Gill, comments: 'These passages only respect praising God before men, and in the church militant, as is done by saints in the land of the living."

For example, in Psalm 6:5, David laments that if the Lord does not deliver him out of his depression by destroying his enemies (v. 3,10), he would die. Once in Sheol, he could not give "thanks" -yadah- unto the Lord. So, the Lord should deliver him in order to receive David's thanksgiving. The word -yadah- in its various forms is found 103 times in the Hebrew OT. Almost without exception, it is the word used for public worship in congregational meetings and refers to public testimonies, praise, thanks [Psalm 9:1f; 18:49; 35:18; 43:4; 71:14ff].
The psalmist is simply saying that once he is dead, there will be no further opportunities to give public praise in the midst of the congregation.

Now the other two psalms Brian quoted (Psalm 49:14-15 mentioned above and 89:46-48) deal with the power God has over the grave, the futility of life, and the image of death as "an insatiable monster feeding on its victims" (NIV note for Psalm 49:14 lists related texts Psalm 69:15; 141:7; Prov 1:12; 27:20; 30:15-16; Isa 5:14; Jonah 2:2; Hab 2:5).
On Psalm 49:15 the NIV comments "...the context strongly suggests that the author, as one of the upright, speaks of his final destiny. Perhaps the thought is of being conveyed into the presence of God in his heavenly temple, analogous to the later Jewish thought of being conveyed to 'Abraham's side' (Lk 16:22)." So, while neither resurrection nor the afterlife was clear in the OT, we do have traces of a conscious afterlife at least for the righteous.


Both Enoch and Elijah (OT saints as well as NT saints) are conscious in heaven according to the Bible (cf. Matt 22:29ff; Heb 11; 12:1, 21ff; Rev 6:9ff; and especially Luke 16:19-31 which is not a "parable" since proper names -- "Lazarus" and "Abraham" -- are used).


Phil Morrison brought up another psalm in defense of annihilationism.

A little while, and the wicked will be no more; though you look for them, they will not be found. But the meek will inherit the land and enjoy great peace...But the wicked will perish : The Lord's enemies will be like the beauty of the fields, they will vanish -- vanish like smoke. (Psalm 37:10-11,20 NIV)

The question is whether such expressions as "no more" and "vanish like smoke" should be understood as "cease to exist" or annihilated. The phrase "no more" should not be interpreted as non-existence -- note Job 7:8,10,21 discussed next. The wicked shall be "no more" on earth plotting and fighting against the righteous, gnashing their teeth (see the context Psalm 37:12ff,35-36; also Ezek 27:36).


The wicked have died (perished) by their own swords (Psalm 37:14-15). This does not mean they will not be resurrected ( "no more" in an absolute sense) but refers to their earthly wicked lives which shall "be no more."They shall no longer be a threat to the righteous. Another image is that the wicked shall be like "ashes under the soles of your feet" (Mal 4:1ff).


On the wicked "vanishing like smoke" (Psalm 37:20) we need to remember this is poetry and not some in depth theological treatise on the afterlife. See Psalm 68:2 which uses the same poetic analogy comparing the wicked to smoke that is blown away by the wind; to wax that melts before the fire. In the prayer of the afflicted man, his days "vanish like smoke" and his bones burn like glowing embers (Psalm 102:3). The heavens also are said to "vanish like smoke" (Isaiah 51:6).
In no sense can we say that the wax or days or the bones are annihilated when they "melt away" or are burned.

The passages from Job 7:7-10 and Ecclesiastes 9:5,10 are also brought up as proof of soul sleep. Back up to the beginning of Job 7 and Eccl 1.

Does not man have hard service ON EARTH? Are not his days like those of a hired man? (Job 7:1 NIV)
What does man gain from all his labor at which he toils UNDER THE SUN? (Eccl 1:3 NIV)

The context in both passages is the man "on earth" who as a chronic sufferer has lost all sense of purpose: "...my life is but a breath" (Job 7:7,16) and "Everything is meaningless" (Eccl 1:2). The tone is pessimistic here, same for the Ecclesiastes "man under the sun" which refers to this present world and its limits.

Another key is the word "eye" and "see" in Job 7. People no longer SEE the dead physically walking around. They are "no more" on EARTH.

The meaning is clear if such phrases as "he who goes down to the grave does not return" (Job 7:9) and "the dead know nothing" and "have no further reward" (Eccl 9:5) are not dogmatized to mean the souls of the dead are unconscious or asleep.

If it is absolutely true that he who goes to the grave "DOES NOT RETURN" (NIV) or "DOES NOT COME UP" (NKJV translation) this would contradict the resurrection of the dead proclaimed throughout the New Testament and even by Job (19:26-27) who is certain that after death he will see God with his own eyes in his flesh.

If it is absolutely true that the dead "have NO further reward" why all the NT statements about "rewards" (Mt 5:12; 1 Cor 3:14; Rev 22:12; etc)?

The expression that those who go to the grave "do not return" means they do not return to their "house" (which could refer to the body or "house of clay" where the soul resides as well -- cf. Matt 12:44; Luke 11:24) and former places of earthly life. They are "no more" on earth

Dr. Morey comments: "In many other ways, Ecclesiastes reveals the warning that without God, nothing in life will have any meaning or significance. The texts seized upon by the annihilationists to prove their doctrine of soul sleep must be interpreted in the context of the basic theme and message of Ecclesiastes. After giving the perspective of autonomous man for eleven chapters, the author concludes by bringing the Creator into the picture (12:1), defining death as the ascent of the spirit to God (12:7), and the necessity of beginning with God and the keeping of His commandments (12:13,14).

The soul is just the life you have.

CLEAR TEXT #1 -- Matthew 10:28 RSV

And do not fear those who kill [Gr apokteino] the body but CANNOT kill [apokteino] the SOUL [psuche]; rather fear those who can destroy [apollumi] both soul and body in hell [Gehenna].

(1) The Greek word for kill is -apokteino- = "to kill" physically. See also Mt 14:5; Jn 18:31; Rev 2:13; 9:15; 11:13; 19:21.
(2) According to Mt 10:28 the person's SOUL -psuche- CANNOT be killed. Why? The soul is not physical but spiritual and immortal.
(3) The "soul and body" together can be "destroyed" in hell (Gehenna). The Greek word here is -apollumi- meaning "to destroy utterly" or "to perish." See also Lk 13:3,5; Jn 3:16; 10:28; 17:12; Rom 2:12; 1 Cor 15:18; 2 Cor 2:15; 4:3; 2 Thes 2:10; James 4:12; 2 Pet 3:9.
(4) This word -apollumi- does not mean "annihilation" as some SdA people argue. According to W.E. Vine the "idea is not extinction but ruin, loss, not of being, but of well-being" (under "destroy").
(5) In fact we know it does NOT refer to total extinction of being because the same word is used of DEMONS as in Lk 4:34; Mk 1:24. "Have you come to DESTROY us?" EQUALS "Have you come here to TORMENT us before the time?" See Mt 8:29; Mk 5:7; Lk 8:28 (the NIV uses the stronger word "torture" in these texts); and Revelation 9:5; 11:10; 14:10-11; 20:10; cf. Matt 25:41,46.
The fate of demons is eternal torment. Hence, "destroy" cannot mean annihilation or total extinction in this context.
(6) As Dr. Robert Morey points out also in his exhaustive book on the subject DEATH AND THE AFTERLIFE (Bethany House, 1984) the Bible uses the word "cast" -ballw- as the synonym for "destroy" -apollumi- in the parallel text Luke 12:4-5 -- "CAST into hell" (Lk 12:5) EQUALS "DESTROY...in hell" (Mt 10:28).
The wicked are "cast" or "destroyed" (delivered up unto eternal misery). Hence, -apollumi- cannot mean extinction or annihilation. Matthew 10:28 clinches it. The soul cannot be "killed" but is immortal.


CLEAR TEXT #2 -- Acts 7:59-60 RSV

And as they were stoning Stephen, he prayed, "Lord Jesus, RECEIVE MY SPIRIT." And he knelt down and cried with a loud voice, "Lord, do not hold this sin against them." And when he had said this, he fell ASLEEP.

Questions for elder Phil to consider --
(1) What was this "spirit" (Greek pneuma) if not the immaterial, invisible, immortal soul of man? See also Luke 8:55; 1 Cor 5:5; and James 2:26 for the same use of "spirit" (pneuma).
(2) What fell asleep? Was it the soul/spirit or Stephen's BODY? See also John 11 for "sleep" referring to the BODY of Lazarus. Concerning Jairus' daughter, see Mt 9:24; Mk 5:39; Lk 8:52. The BODY is said to "sleep" but her "SPIRIT" returned (Lk 8:55).
CLEAR TEXT #3 -- from your favorite book Ecclesiastes 12:7 RSV

"...and the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the SPIRIT [Hebrew -ruach-] returns to God who gave it."

Question: What is this -ruach- (spirit) that "returns to God" ?
BTW, this is not a book to build any doctrine of "soul sleep" or spiritual unconsciousness after death since the emphasis is on the meaninglessness of life on this earth without God. There is no clear discussion of the afterlife in this book. The context of the whole book is the man "under the sun" (an expression used 29 times) referring to the person on earth in this present world and under its limitations. In this context such texts as Eccl 9:5,10 should be considered.

That is also why 'Hell Fire' is symbolic.

Incorrect. The use of the word "Death" is symbolic. You are like Nicodemus, thinking to be born-again means you have to go back inside your mother's womb and come out. You think eternal death means you are actually dead, when in fact it is a failure to be born again.

Hell is described by our Lord in such gruesome language as the following: "unquenchable fire" (Mt 3:12), "the fire of hell [Gehenna]" (Mt 5:22), "thrown into the fiery furnace" (Mt 13:42,50), "weeping and gnashing of teeth" (Mt 13:42,50), "thrown into eternal fire" (Mt 18:8), "thrown into the fire of hell" (Mt 18:9), "eternal fire" (Mt 25:41), "eternal punishment" (Mt 25:46), "where the fire never goes out" (Mk 9:43), "where the fire is not quenched" (Mk 9:48), "unquenchable fire" (Lk 3:17).

This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power....( St. Paul, 2 Thess 1:7-9 NGV)

In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire. ( St. Jude, Jude 7 NGV)

A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: "If anyone worships the beast and his image and receives his mark on the forehead or on the hand, he, too, will drink of the wine of God's fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. He will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name." (St. John, Rev 14:9-11 NGV)

It is clear from the above passages that the fire connected with Gehenna
1) is ETERNAL (Mt 18:8; 25:41; Jude 7)
2) is UNQUENCHABLE, i.e. it will never die out or be put out (Mt 3:12; Mk 9:43,48; Lk 3:17)
3) signifies TORMENT and not annihilation (Rev 14:9-11; 20:10)


We were made to exist eternally -- either with or without God (Mt 25:46).

And the ones that are not resurrected, are going into the 'lake of fire' which is the second death. (no resurrection) just death.

Not true. The Bible clearly says that all people, the good and evil, will be resurrected.

Acts 24:15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.

Daniel 12:2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.

Matthew 25:46 "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

John 5:28 "Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice
John 5:29 and come out--those who have done good will rise to live, and those who have done evil will rise to be condemned.

[epignosis]

Re: God HATES Rational Thinking!

Romans 5:12-19 (King James Version)

12Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Psalm 51:5 (King James Version)

5Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

So we are all in a sinful state.


Genesis 3:19 (King James Version)

19In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

Ecclesiastes 9:10 (King James Version)

10Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.

Ecclesiastes 9:5 (King James Version)

5For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

Psalm 146:4 (King James Version)

4His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.

Ezekiel 18:4 (King James Version)

4Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

Ecclesiastes 3:19 (King James Version)

19For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.



All these scriptures are telling us what death is. Many of you take the bible literally , this is pretty plain. The bible even goes on to say man is no different than the animals.

This also means that the scriptures and understanding of scriptures , you quoted contradict these ones.

So from the bible it is plain that we all die and that when we are dead there is no life we are non existent. No thoughts no work no knowledge. Just like the animals when they die.
So the rest of the scriptures in the bible, have to be in harmony with these ones.

[Meek and Humble]

Re: God HATES Rational Thinking!

So, you don't ADDRESS my verses, you just post your own?

Romans 5:12-19 (King James Version)

12Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

You said earlier you believe the world was around for millions and billions of years before Adam and Eve. That in this time many species lived and died and went extinct. How then can you think this passage refers to literal death entering the world? It refers to spiritual death.

Genesis 3:19 (King James Version)

19In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

The human body was made from dust. What separates us from the animals was the fact that God breathed life into us, the soul.

Ecclesiastes 9:10 (King James Version)

10Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.

Just finished addressing that in my last post. So you aren't even reading them, are you.

The passages from Job 7:7-10 and Ecclesiastes 9:5,10 are also brought up as proof of soul sleep. Back up to the beginning of Job 7 and Eccl 1.

Does not man have hard service ON EARTH? Are not his days like those of a hired man? (Job 7:1 NIV)
What does man gain from all his labor at which he toils UNDER THE SUN? (Eccl 1:3 NIV)

The context in both passages is the man "on earth" who as a chronic sufferer has lost all sense of purpose: "...my life is but a breath" (Job 7:7,16) and "Everything is meaningless" (Eccl 1:2). The tone is pessimistic here, same for the Ecclesiastes "man under the sun" which refers to this present world and its limits.

Ecclesiastes 9:5 (King James Version)

5For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

The meaning is clear if such phrases as "he who goes down to the grave does not return" (Job 7:9) and "the dead know nothing" and "have no further reward" (Eccl 9:5) are not dogmatized to mean the souls of the dead are unconscious or asleep.

If it is absolutely true that he who goes to the grave "DOES NOT RETURN" (NIV) or "DOES NOT COME UP" (NKJV translation) this would contradict the resurrection of the dead proclaimed throughout the New Testament and even by Job (19:26-27) who is certain that after death he will see God with his own eyes in his flesh.

If it is absolutely true that the dead "have NO further reward" why all the NT statements about "rewards" (Mt 5:12; 1 Cor 3:14; Rev 22:12; etc)?

Psalm 146:4 (King James Version)

4His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.

The expression that those who go to the grave "do not return" means they do not return to their "house" (which could refer to the body or "house of clay" where the soul resides as well -- cf. Matt 12:44; Luke 11:24) and former places of earthly life. They are "no more" on earth. To read "soul sleep" or annihilation in here is to ignore the context and discard the NT. The afterlife is not discussed in these passages.
Same for the Eccl 9 passage. The expression "the dead know nothing" and that there is no working nor planning in the grave is similar to a verse in the Psalms. See Psalm 146:4 which is often used for soul sleep --

His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his THOUGHTS PERISH. (KJV)
His spirit departs, he returns to his earth; in that very day his PLANS PERISH. (NKJV)
When his breath departs he returns to his earth; on that very day his PLANS PERISH. (RSV)
When their spirit departs, they return to the ground; on that very day their PLANS COME TO NOTHING. (NIV)

Reading just the KJV one might think a sort of spiritual unconsciousness was being taught here. But comparing all the modern versions, it is clear the verse is referring to the earthly plans of the person coming to nothing (perishing). This is how I would understand Eccl 9:5,10 as well. Compared with the living who know that they will die, the dead -- referring to the dead as they appear to us "under the sun" -- know nothing (verse 5). In fact, there is no more work nor planning nor chasing after earthly knowledge or wisdom for them in the grave from our perspective "under the sun" (verse 10). Compare with Eccl 1:12-18 --

Ezekiel 18:4 (King James Version)

4Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

In Sacred Scripture the term "soul" often refers to human life or the entire human person [Cf. Mt 16:25-26; Jn 15:13; Acts 2:41; also Ezek 18:4,20]. But "soul" also refers to the innermost aspect of man, that which is of greatest value in him [cf. Mt 10:28; 26:38; Jn 12:27], that by which he is most especially in God's image: "soul" signifies the spiritual principle in man.

Ecclesiastes 3:19 (King James Version)

19For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.

The reader interested in the context of a verse will quickly note the deathblow to your argument in verse 21. How on earth ypu can ranks these verses under “Yes, death is final” is beyond my limited brainpower. Solomon makes the opposite argument actually. He argues that both man and beast die, no difference here. But what is not seen is the difference: a beast has no eternal soul, his spirit dies with him. But the soul of man goes upward to meet his Maker. Because everyone will have to give account, Ecclesiastes 12:14. And it is clear it does not happen in this life, but it will happen says Solomon, when the soul of man goes upward.

Ecclesiastes 3:21 Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?

Also, see here: http://www.tektonics.org/lp/nopass.html

[epignosis]

Re: God HATES Rational Thinking!

ou said earlier you believe the world was around for millions and billions of years before Adam and Eve. That in this time many species lived and died and went extinct. How then can you think this passage refers to literal death entering the world? It refers to spiritual death.

I said the universe, was around for a long time , it is possible for that length of time. But a lot longer than 6 24 hr days. The bible leaves this open as to length of time. Yes many species lived and died. For animals death is always the end result. For these animals there is no soul that leaves the body or anything like that. The soul of animal is it's life. That is the same for humans. That is why the bible says we are the same as animals in that respect. Death is non existence. That is why the bible says all is vanity. Because you can do all the work and slave for riches ( for example) but in the end you die. You have no thoughts, or work or knowledge, in death. It comes to nothing.


The death state can also be used to illustrate the spiritually dead condition of the world in general, so Jesus could speak of ‘the dead burying the dead,’ and the apostle Paul could refer to the woman living for sensual gratification as “dead though she is living.” (Lu 9:60; 1Ti 5:6; Eph 2:1)

And since physical death discharges one from any debts or obligations existing up to that time (Ro 6:7), a Christian’s being freed or liberated from sin (Ro 6:2,*11) and from the condemnation of the Mosaic Law (Ro 7:2-6) is also likened to death, such one having ‘died’ to his former situation and obligations. The one figuratively dying in such a way, of course, is still alive physically and is now free to follow Christ as a slave to righteousness.—Ro 6:18-20; Ga 5:1.

[epignosis]

Re: God HATES Rational Thinking!

The human body was made from dust. What separates us from the animals was the fact that God breathed life into us, the soul.

He did that with the animals as well.

Genesis 7:21-23 (King James Version)

21And all flesh died that moved upon the earth, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of beast, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth, and every man:

22All in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all that was in the dry land, died.

23And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth: and Noah only remained alive, and they that were with him in the ark.

Do you see where all life has this breath of life from God.
So it is not just man that God blew the breath of life.

[Meek and Humble]

Re: God HATES Rational Thinking!

That is why the bible says all is vanity. Because you can do all the work and slave for riches ( for example) but in the end you die. You have no thoughts, or work or knowledge, in death. It comes to nothing.

You seem to read only Ecclesiastes and ignore the rest of the Bible, and totally miss the point of the book.

http://www.tektonics.org/lp/nopass.html

[epignosis]

Re: God HATES Rational Thinking!

You seem to read only Ecclesiastes and ignore the rest of the Bible, and totally miss the point of the book.

http://www.tektonics.org/lp/nopass.html

Actually the book is very good it explains why this verse is correct.

2 Timothy 3:16 (King James Version)

16All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

So all of the bible is correct and Ecclesiastes supports the rest of the bible, it is also helpful to get to the correct understanding, of other scriptures.

[Meek and Humble]

Re: God HATES Rational Thinking!

Actually the book is very good it explains why this verse is correct.

2 Timothy 3:16 (King James Version)

16All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

So all of the bible is correct and Ecclesiastes supports the rest of the bible, it is also helpful to get to the correct understanding, of other scriptures.

So, you agree with the last chapter of the book also?

The end is certain, but death is not the final thing. Solomon continues in the next verse: “but know thou, that for all these things God will bring thee into judgment.”

Ecclesiastes 11:9 Rejoice, O young man, in thy youth; and let thy heart cheer thee in the days of thy youth, and walk in the ways of thine heart, and in the sight of thine eyes: but know thou, that for all these things God will bring thee into judgment.


The reader interested in the context of a verse will quickly note the deathblow to the argument the author of the SAB makes in verse 21. How on earth the author of the SAB can ranks these verses under “Yes, death is final” is beyond my limited brainpower. Solomon makes the opposite argument actually. He argues that both man and beast die, no difference here. But what is not seen is the difference: a beast has no eternal soul, his spirit dies with him. But the soul of man goes upward to meet his Maker. Because everyone will have to give account, chapter 12:14. And it is clear it does not happen in this life, but it will happen says Solomon, when the soul of man goes upward.

Ecclesiastes 3:21 Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?



Ecclesiastes 12:14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.


Actually, Solmon starts this periscope with observing that in this earth wickedness was found both in the places of wickedness and in the placed of righteousness, see verse 16. But we do not live in a universe were wickedness will go unpunished. There are many who go to their graves never having faced an earthly court for their actions. But God will not let wickedness go unpunished, verse 17, and this will happen at God's time, after death, as per this verse.

Ecclesiastes 3:16 And moreover I saw under the sun the place of judgment, that wickedness was there; and the place of righteousness, that iniquity was there.
17 I said in mine heart, God shall judge the righteous and the wicked: for there is a time there for every purpose and for every work.

Beasts cannot do evil, and are therefore not punished. Men will appear before the judgement seat. As not everyone appears before the judgement seat in this life, it therefore follows there must be life after death: it must be that the spirit of man goes upward. Men do not see this, they don't seem to know this, but it is an unescapable conclusion Solomon argues.

The object of this book is to give wisdom to young people, which is as per chapter 11:10: And this wisdom is given them so they can escape this coming judgement.

Ecclesiastes 11:10 Therefore remove sorrow from thy heart, and put away evil from thy flesh: for childhood and youth are vanity.


Though we all die, we do not all go to the same place.

Luke 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.