[Sister Noddy]

Re: How will the unsaved react to being tossed into the Lake of F

The Word of God teaches completely otherwise!

Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven;

But he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Matthew 21:7

And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected:
Hereby know we that we are in him.

1 John 2:3-5

Good, Mr SS, thanks for the reply! But now I have a big question ...

Of course my church is very famliar with the verses you have cited, and they are also in the New Testament, words of Jesus!

But what about that other command: judge not lest ye be judged? (sorry, I don't have the exact verse here)

There will inevitably arise a contradiction when a self-proclaimed Christian assures his pastors and priests that he is all right with Jesus ...

... yet he may not be! ... is it ours to judge? ... what if there are circumstances we don't know? ... what if it's between himself and God and it's none of our business?

... just wondering, noddy

[Pastor Billy-Reuben]

Re: How will the unsaved react to being tossed into the Lake of F

Good, Mr SS, thanks for the reply! But now I have a big question ...

Of course my church is very famliar with the verses you have cited, and they are also in the New Testament, words of Jesus!

But what about that other command: judge not lest ye be judged? (sorry, I don't have the exact verse here)

There will inevitably arise a contradiction when a self-proclaimed Christian assures his pastors and priests that he is all right with Jesus ...

... yet he may not be! ... is it ours to judge? ... what if there are circumstances we don't know? ... what if it's between himself and God and it's none of our business?

... just wondering, noddy

As Christians, we are commanded to judge, but to judge righteously and fairly, with no double-standards. We are to judge according to the same measure that we ourselves are judged. There is no prohibition against judging others. The prohibition is against hypocracy.

Lev 19:15 Ye shall do no unrighteousness in judgment: thou shalt not respect the person of the poor, nor honor the person of the mighty: but in righteousness shalt thou judge thy neighbour.
John 7:24 Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.

The verse you were looking for is Matthew 7:1. Here it is in context:
Matthew 7:1-4
Judge not, that ye be not judged.
For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?

Pastor Billy-Reuben

[Sister Noddy]

Re: How will the unsaved react to being tossed into the Lake of F

As Christians, we are commanded to judge, but to judge righteously and fairly, with no double-standards. We are to judge according to the same measure that we ourselves are judged. There is no prohibition against judging others. The prohibition is against hypocracy.

Lev 19:15 Ye shall do no unrighteousness in judgment: thou shalt not respect the person of the poor, nor honor the person of the mighty: but in righteousness shalt thou judge thy neighbour.

John 7:24 Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.

The verse you were looking for is Matthew 7:1. Here it is in context:
Matthew 7:1-4

Judge not, that ye be not judged.
For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?


Pastor Billy-Reuben

Thank you, both Pastor Billy and Salvation Seeker! Finally I have the answer and I understand it! Praise!

There is no prohibition against judging others. The prohibition is against hypocracy.

This is it, this is the key right here! And you've also provided the scripture I wanted to back this up ...

So it's tough love in Jesus's Name, we hate the sin right along with Jesus' commandments, and not the sinner ... right?

... hopefully, noddy

[SalvationSeeker]

Re: How will the unsaved react to being tossed into the Lake of F

Thank you, both Pastor Billy and Salvation Seeker! Finally I have the answer and I understand it! Praise!

There is no prohibition against judging others. The prohibition is against hypocracy.

Exactly.

This is it, this is the key right here! And you've also provided the scripture I wanted to back this up ...

So it's tough love in Jesus's Name, we hate the sin right along with Jesus' commandments, and not the sinner ... right?

... hopefully, noddy

Yes... but not in the way you (probably) think you understand it.
We both love AND hate the sinner.

But I say unto you,
Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven:
For he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
Matthew 5:44-45

We are commanded to "love" (ie do good to them) our enemies, since God shows them the mercy of not destroying them right away for their sins:

It is of the LORD's mercies that we are not consumed, because his compassions fail not.
They are new every morning: great is thy faithfulness.
Lamentations 3:22-23

In short: He forgives and forgives and forgives... (until a certain point.)
We do the same, we forgive those who persecute us, in hope and prayer that they will stop being wicked and accept Jesus Christ as their personal Saviour.

And we also love them by wanting them to join us in worship of Jesus, thus avoiding eternal hellfire, and instead living in eternal bliss in Heaven.
Cause if we didn't love them, we would have no problem with letting them damn themselves, yes?


And we hate them, but we hate them because of their works, their sins.
The hate is therefore really of the sin.. but a man is known by his fruits, and a good tree cannot bring forth bad fruit (Matthew 7:18):
The man is rotten, as a bad tree, and that's why he sins. So his works and himself cannot be truly separated.
And everyone is in this rotten state (we were too!) until they have accepted Jesus:
Not a single man alive is good by his own!

And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good?
There is none good but one, that is, God.
Mark 10:18

So when you righteously hate a sinner, as commanded, you hate his works: you hate him for his works.
It's his sin that causes you to hate him, as it was with David, who hated the congregation of evil doers. (Psalm 26:5)
Thus, you really hate the sin, and not the sinner: For when he no longer sins (when he has accepted Jesus), it is unrighteous to hate him.

So we hate him for sinning (we hate the sin), and we love him as God's creation... in hope and prayer that he will become righteous and join us in Heaven.
That's how we can love and hate them at the same time.



This is complicated to explain in so few words that I've used here, and very hard to understand for the unsaved.
Because it is not an earthly thing, and extremely hard to understand for those who love the world.

But hopefully, you'll understand.. even if you are a false Christian (but I pray that will change.) and a woman to boot.

[Sister Noddy]

Re: How will the unsaved react to being tossed into the Lake of F

Okay, thanks Mr Salvation

Hmmm ... I'm thinking that either my church has a different understanding on these points, or I've misunderstood all along just exactly what interpretation my church does have ... see below ...

In short: He forgives and forgives and forgives ... (until a certain point)

My church believes God forgives anyway, without the limit at the end ...

And we hate them, but we hate them because of their works, their sins.

The hate is therefore really of the sin .. but a man is known by his fruits, and a good tree cannot bring forth bad fruit ...

My church doesn't think God hates anyone, no matter what their works or their sins, and doesn't consider a bad person as a bad tree with bad fruit ... rather, the sinner himself will eventually come to realize he is a bad tree with bad fruit, and he will want to change to please God ...

So when you righteously hate a sinner, as commanded, you hate his works: you hate him for his works.

It's his sin that causes you to hate him, as it was with David, who hated the congregation of evil doers.

Therefore because (according to my church) there is no hate in God, we don't hate either ... we might disapprove the bad works, so instead of rebuking we pray for the person ... and we think of David's 'hate' of the congregation of evildoers as more of a warning that they should change their ways to please God ... meanwhile God Almighty is omnipotent and unchanging, and all forgiving ...

This is complicated to explain in so few words that I've used here, and very hard to understand for the unsaved.

Because it is not an earthly thing, and extremely hard to understand for those who love the world.

But hopefully, you'll understand .. even if you are a false Christian (but I pray that will change)

I think you have done very well explaining this, SS, and yes it is hard to understand for those of the world who love the world ... my church focuses on the ritual of the liturgy (which you could say is the pomp and ceremony of the world), while the scripture and the gospel readings are presented in short excerpts, with a homily to illustrate how their message of ancient times can work for us in the world today, and to demonstrate their holiness and validity for all people of all generations ...

I know you think my church is a feel-good sissy-christian church, and as you can see, the way our two churches believe the Bible is very different ...

[SalvationSeeker]

Re: How will the unsaved react to being tossed into the Lake of F

Hmmm ... I'm thinking that either my church has a different understanding on these points, or I've misunderstood all along just exactly what interpretation my church does have ... see below ...

There doesn't seem to be anything wrong with your intellect, as far as women go atleast..
I used to think you were befuddled and dumb, but I'm starting to realize that you're obstinate because your "Church" has taught you to be:
So I don't blame you, women are easily led, being followers and not leaders, but I do blame your false church.

My church believes God forgives anyway, without the limit at the end ...

You believe in hell right?
As there is no redemption from hell, once there, you're staying.. one can gather that God has "given up" (so to speak) on the ones in hell:
There is no more forgivance for them, and no more opportunites to spit on Him either.
Eternal suffering is the only thing they will experience from then on, forever.

Because there is no forgiveness or mercy for those in hell;
They will be given no respite or salvation from the eternal flames.
Not even a single drop of water! (Luke 16:24-25)

So God doesn't forgive someone forever...
Only until a certain point, because otherwise, He wouldn't have created hell.

My church doesn't think God hates anyone, no matter what their works or their sins, and doesn't consider a bad person as a bad tree with bad fruit ...

Then they're in direct contradiction of the scriptures..
And you must know that if you've ever read the Bible!

For thou art not a God that hath pleasure in wickedness: neither shall evil dwell with thee.
The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.
Thou shalt destroy them that speak leasing: the LORD will abhor the bloody and deceitful man.
Psalm 5:4-6

The LORD trieth the righteous:
But the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth.
Psalm 11:5

As for considering sinners bad trees with bad fruit..
JESUS, Who is God Himself, is the one that first used the likeness!
So to say that He doesn't consider anyone a bad tree with bad fruit is quite absurd.

And it doesn't stop there.
Jesus also compares sinners to tares in Matthew 13:24-30..
And like tares, He says they should be burnt up! (Matthew 13:30 & Matthew 13:40-42)

rather, the sinner himself will eventually come to realize he is a bad tree with bad fruit, and he will want to change to please God ...

Oh really?
And what about those who doesn't?
And once again, the parable is directly from the lips of God Himself: Jesus.
To say that God doesn't use His own parables is truly absurd.

Therefore because (according to my church) there is no hate in God, we don't hate either ... we might disapprove the bad works, so instead of rebuking we pray for the person ... and we think of David's 'hate' of the congregation of evildoers as more of a warning that they should change their ways to please God ... meanwhile God Almighty is omnipotent and unchanging, and all forgiving ...

A warning? In what way?
If I say that I HATE something, does that mean something else of all a sudden?
No, it means that I hate it.
What your church is doing is twisting the Word of God. Nothing else.

Besides, there are more quotes of such than Psalm 26.. ALOT more.
Are they all just "warnings"?

I think you have done very well explaining this, SS, and yes it is hard to understand for those of the world who love the world ... my church focuses on the ritual of the liturgy (which you could say is the pomp and ceremony of the world), while the scripture and the gospel readings are presented in short excerpts, with a homily to illustrate how their message of ancient times can work for us in the world today, and to demonstrate their holiness and validity for all people of all generations ...

I know you think my church is a feel-good sissy-christian church, and as you can see, the way our two churches believe the Bible is very different ...

You don't really believe in the Bible. Because you are too indoctrinated with the notions of this world. ("science" and what not)
It's evident in the way you claim the Bible is only poetry and what not..
But in truth, the Bible is the Word of God, and it's all true.

I'll be praying for your soul, you poor brainwashed woman.

[Sister Noddy]

Re: How will the unsaved react to being tossed into the Lake of F

After thinking about your post overnight, I've decided to answer a few points you've made, Mr Salvation ...

There doesn't seem to be anything wrong with your intellect, as far as women go at least ...

I used to think you were befuddled and dumb, but I'm starting to realize that you're obstinate because your "Church" has taught you to be:
So I don't blame you, women are easily led, being followers and not leaders, but I do blame your false church.

Now whatever made you think I was befuddled and dumb? I can be quite serious, but in some of my posts I'm just kidding around to be funny.

And why blame my false church? I had formed my own thoughts and opinions about religion long before I was confirmed to Anglicanism. I chose Anglicanism to practice because it most closely fits what I think and feel about God and man and the world.

You believe in hell right?

No, I don't believe in a literal hell.

Then they're in direct contradiction of the scriptures ...
And you must know that if you've ever read the Bible!

Of course I've read the Bible, all of it; both the KJV and the RSV.

I know that it was written by religious holy men thousands of years ago, and that it's a collection of stories, letters, poetry and other literature which contain man's ideas about God and truth and salvation; and that eventually the documents were collated by the theologians of Emperor Constantine, revised and translated from the Hebraic and Greek into the Latin; and that this was the foundation of Christianity in 325 AD as the official religion of the Roman Empire.

So you understand that to me, the Bible is a book of religious stories.

You understand, don't you, that only fundamentalists take the Bible literally; that non-religious folks, humanists, athiests, scientists, literary academics and mainstream Christians understand it as metaphor -- all of it.

You don't really believe in the Bible.

No, I don't believe it literally.

Because you are too indoctrinated with the notions of this world. ("science" and what not)

It's evident in the way you claim the Bible is only poetry and what not

Yes. I have a good layman's understanding of today's modern science and cosmology, also a background in history, literature, comparative religion (and what not)

I'll be praying for your soul

Thank you, Mr SS, I appreciate that.

[Pastor Billy-Reuben]

Re: How will the unsaved react to being tossed into the Lake of F

I know you were speaking to Salvation Seeker, but I hope you don't mind if I jump in and respond to this one point.

You understand, don't you, that only fundamentalists take the Bible literally; that non-religious folks, humanists, athiests, scientists, literary academics and mainstream Christians understand it as metaphor -- all of it.

Of course we understand that. We also understand that most people will be brutally tormented in Hell for all of eternity, while comparatively few of us will be living it up in comfort in Heaven. For Jesus said, "strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it."

SHOUT GLORY!

Pastor Billy-Reuben

[Sister Noddy]

Re: How will the unsaved react to being tossed into the Lake of F

I know you were speaking to Salvation Seeker, but I hope you don't mind if I jump in and respond to this one point.

Of course I don't mind, Pastor Billy. I respect your views, and also your knowledge and command of the scriptures.

Of course we understand that. We also understand that most people will be brutally tormented in Hell for all of eternity ...

As I said in my post above, I don't believe in a literal hell, a lake of fire at the center of the earth; or anywhere else in the universe. I don't believe there is a real satan or the devil, or demons; these are mythical creatures in times of distant past when people were supertitious and terrified of nature; such as storms and volcanic eruptions, thunder and lightning, and what not.

From now on I want to focus on what I personally believe, and not so much on the doctrine of my church.

[Brother Temperance]

Re: How will the unsaved react to being tossed into the Lake of F

Our Church officially agrees with this, for all who proclaim they are Christian, whether or not they have followed Christ's commands faithfully.

(in other words, if they say so that's good enough for our church, and their own private relationship with God and Christ is between them and God)

Well, Brother SS has rebuked your heresies on many other points, but I'd just like to return to this. When we state that sinners are going to Hell, you claim that we're judging them, but you feel that you're qualified to assure people they're going to Heaven. Why is it a judgement when we tell people they're going to Hell, but not when you tell people they're going to Heaven?

[Sister Noddy]

Re: How will the unsaved react to being tossed into the Lake of F

Well, Brother SS has rebuked your heresies on many other points, but I'd just like to return to this. When we state that sinners are going to Hell, you claim that we're judging them, but you feel that you're qualified to assure people they're going to Heaven. Why is it a judgement when we tell people they're going to Hell, but not when you tell people they're going to Heaven?

Ah ha! But you see, I'm not saying anything of the kind. It's like this. If you believe in a real place called HELL, then it follows naturally that you would be convinced all people who don't believe the Bible as God's Word and follow His commands are going there when they die.

I'm not the one saying this, I'm saying I don't believe in hell, period. Also I am NOT qualified to assure people they are going to heaven; I will leave that up to my church, and theologians who know more about church doctrine than I do.

My own personal thoughts on heaven are unclear at this point. I think the traditonal view of heaven as a glorified earth-like paradise where we all get new and perfect immortal bodies, and crack beers and enjoy barbeques with Jesus in the back yards of solid gold mansions and attended by angels, is as much a myth as the lakes of fire of hell. Ya get me?

[Mrs. Mary Whitford]

Re: How will the unsaved react to being tossed into the Lake of F

My own personal thoughts on heaven are unclear at this point.

Of course they're unclear. You're lacking any sort of real spiritual guidance by your attendance of a false church and your lack of a Godly husband to guide you through the Bible.

[Sister Noddy]

Re: How will the unsaved react to being tossed into the Lake of F

Of course they're unclear. You're lacking any sort of real spiritual guidance by your attendance of a false church and your lack of a Godly husband to guide you through the Bible.

Let me try to explain it, Sister MM ...

First I suspect I know what you think of my yellow-belly-sissy incense-wafting bishop-chanting chalice-clinking liturgical false-cathy-lick church; you would probably know better than most here, since you were a cathy-lick nun; and I am sorry for your unfortunate experiences in the convent, Sister, you have my sympathies.

To folks like you here at Landover, someone like me would be considered an atheist. But I'm not an atheist; I believe the Bible as real and valid and true in a spiritual realm, not in the physical world.

The spiritual realm is of God, and a great mystery. Holy men of ancient times reached out to to find Him, to understand Him; they were aware of Him, the unknowable, the Almighty.

They yearned for God and cried out in the wilderness to Him, and wrote magnificent literature in his Holy Name: which became the scriptures of the Bible we know today. This is what we mean when we call the Bible 'sacred story.'

It is the story of an unknowable mystery, in the Spirit, in a realm separated from the natural physical universe.

I believe in hell as a metaphor for that state of being without a sense of God, that loneliness and desolation of being alone and Godless, in this life, and perhaps after death, although we can't know that for sure; I certainly don't believe in any lakes of fire!

I believe in heaven as the spiritual dimension of the Divine, having nothing to do with our physical earth and physical heaven; planet, sky and stars.

So you see that I do believe in heaven; just not a physical heaven as you have described.

It won't be anything like what we know as human beings here in the physical world, in a natural universe of matter and energy and galaxies and planets. It exists outside time and space, but we can feel it and sense it on the inside, in our imaginations, in our sense of wonder, in our hearts; in our senses which are gifts from God.

So, you believe it, and I believe it; but we believe in a very different way.

As for my lack of a Godly husband, I'm a widow, with grandchildren, and I have a very nice family.

... blessings Sister, from noddy

[Bobby-Joe]

Re: How will the unsaved react to being tossed into the Lake of F

I believe in hell as a metaphor for that state of being without a sense of God, that loneliness and desolation of being alone and Godless, in this life, and perhaps after death, although we can't know that for sure; I certainly don't believe in any lakes of fire!

I rejoice that Satan has not so utterly blinded you that you perceive that to be an atheist is be an utter tormented wretch and justly so! There may be hope for you yet. GLORY!

But really Minister Noddy, without hell how is there any justice? Your reasoning makes God indifferent and detached from humanity.

[Sister Noddy]

Re: How will the unsaved react to being tossed into the Lake of F

I rejoice that Satan has not so utterly blinded you that you perceive that to be an atheist is be an utter tormented wretch and justly so! There may be hope for you yet. GLORY!

But really Minister Noddy, without hell how is there any justice? Your reasoning makes God indifferent and detached from humanity.

Yes Bobby-Joe, but ---!

Remember that I believe God and Heaven are outside the natural universe. This means logically that everything within the fabric of space-time which we call the Universe is natural, that it formed naturally, that it evolved, that is is dynamic and expanding in the dimension of time.

Therefore, following this logic, nothing that is unnatural or supernatural can exist within the dimensional framework of our physical universe.

So a literal lake of fire where souls are tossed to burn for all eternity is not in keeping with a logical physical universe. That's an archaic notion and not very sophisticated in light of today's physics and cosmology.

However since God is outside time and space (beyond the universe) there may be a place prepared for His purposes. We won't know that until we get there.

I just don't believe the physical universe and the dimension of the Divine can be mixed into one reality; they can't be compared, this is beyond our capacity to imagine as long as we are alive in the physical realm in human form.

This is why I don't think it's possible to explain the origins of our physical reality with religion. What's natural is nature, and can be explained with real science based on critical inquiry and scientific method, which is continually revising itself toward a fuller comprehension; what is Divine is of God, and beyond our reach or understanding in this life.

... nods