[Noah Dint]

Re: Christianity can be FUN!

How does any of this make Christianity more fun?

I agree with you COM. Yes, this thread has most certainly derailed.

-ND

[True Disciple]

Re: Christianity can be FUN!

I agree with you COM. Yes, this thread has most certainly derailed.

-ND

I'm sorry. I was just making a little point about Hell....

Shall we talk about fun again?

[Serenity-Millennium]

Re: Christianity can be FUN!

Dear mr. Millennium,
Nice to hear from you again!
I must say that I'm impressed by your spirit. After being so effectively destroyed on all points of debate, it would seem that one would know when to stop, and for a day or so, I thought you did.
However, you replied again, and, I'm sorry to say, your arguments are getting progressively worse. In this post, you make up new laws about adjectives, but consequently totally defeat this argument yourself. Then you go on about aionas ton aionon, where your argument comes down to: "If I would have said that, I would have meant this-and-this." Of course, you never look at context of passages, which prove your interpretations dramatically wrong.

I explained the meaning behind every instance of aionas ton aionon in the Bible. The word aionas is never used to mean forever, sorry. Not in the Bible, not in any Ancient Greek work. Never.

Nouns and adjectives

Yes, it is. Similar forms include waas/wazig, room/romig, groen/groenig, nood/nodig, maat/matig and so on. In some of these cases the adjective bears roughly the same meaning as the noun, in other cases it means something different or even opposite. "Eeuw/eeuwig" is not like military/militant, it is like sick/sickly.

Please, I'm interested in knowing what makes you an authority on Ancient Greek grammar. You presume the meaning of the word based on your interpretation of the Bible, that did not exist until hundreds of years after Christ, in an eternal hell, an idea of pagan origin, which none of the early Christians taught. It was invented by Catholics.

http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Aion_lim.shtml

That explains the meaning of the word.

In all earnestness, I like how self-defeating your argument is. Here, you freely admit that the Latin word aeviternus, meaning "very long" and being a derivative of aevum, "age," was contracted to aeternus and used to mean "eternal." Thanks for proving my point!

Yes. Notice the DATES when these changes took place though. Was it before or after Biblical times?

We see then, that this adjective is almost exclusively applied to nouns which generally designate something eternal (God, God's reign, the afterlife). it would still be rather exceptional, wouldn't it, if a word which would supposedly mean something temporal, were so often applied to something which is its opposite, eternal. After all, how could God be both temporal and eternal?

If you read what I wrote, you would see I explained the meaning of the word in all of the verses we discussed.

I have already explained that. Jesus is God.

You have memory problems. You said, "even if it were a contradiction...", to which I gave my reply.

I may not have been clear about this before, I'm sorry, but the Bible obviously isn't meant to be taken literally when the Bible itself says it doesn't have to be. So about the beast with seven heads and ten horns: nowhere in the Bible it says that that is not to be taken literally, I believe, John says this about some other things, like the water being the peoples of the earth, but as long as he didn't say it about the beast, I'm inclined to believe it is to be taken literally.

My, you aren't even reading what YOU wrote! You said what isn't to be taken literally is the phrase "to eternity and beyond." Where in the Bible does it say that doesn't have to be taken literally?

Then why are you unable to rebuke the arguments given by the CARM in this discussion?

I have addressed all of them.

3. The context should be consulted to interpret it, not a theoretical construct about what words possibly could mean, like your citations provide. What matters is what the writers meant, and to discover that, one should look at the context.

The context tells me Jesus saves everyone. I posted the relevant scripture, which you ignored.

And about Revelations 20:10, how do you interpret being "touchstoned" for all eternity? And why does this have to happen in a Lake of Fire? Doesn't really change the meaning of this passage, I think.
Anyway, this discussion is broad enough. We can discuss meanings of new words later on.

I explained the meaning of the lake of fire and brimstone in a quote which you ignored.

Yes, I do, you interpret aionas ton aionon as referring to coming ages. However, you cannot explain why this phrase is almost exclusively applied to the eternal Glory of God, and only two times to something else.

I did explain it. Greek has its own ways of referencing eternal, which are used in the New Testament.

I did not insist that it was "Hell" where people were being eternally punished. Maybe it means that people are moved from a temporary phase of punishment into an eternal one. And the second death isn't destroyed anywhere in the Bible.

It states quite clearly that there is no more death at all.

I refer again to Revelation 21:8, which proves that this will happen only to the Saved™. Your adressing of this seems to come down to the point that Fire and Brimstone have their positive sides too. I didn't deny this at any point, but I fail to see in what way this is relevant.

You understand precisely why it is relevant, don't lie now.

Yes, you did:

I was just referring to all the grumpy emoticons you were using. I never said you were mean.

So, to conclude:

You have tried, and failed again, to rescue the worldviews of your church.

The only "church" I belong to is the universal love of Christ. I don't need to be ruled by the traditions of men.

It's sweet you seem to think your arguments have defeated mine. It's okay, God will forgive you for adhering to pagan myths rather than the Bible. He loves you, too.

Now read and study the following scriptures and allow your spirit to soar to heavenly heights as the Spirit of Truth guides you into the riches of His kingdom and His love for you, your family, your friends, and the enemies in your mind.

1. 1Tim 2:4 God will have all to be saved. (KJV) Can His will be thwarted?
2. 1Tim 2:4 God desires all to come to the knowledge of truth Will His desire come to pass?
3. 1Tim 2:6 Salvation of all is testified in due time Are we judging God before due time?
4. Jn 12:47 Jesus came to save all Will He succeed?
5. Eph 1:11 God works all after the counsel of His will Can your will overcome His?
6. Jn 4:42 Jesus is Savior of the world Can He be Savior of all without saving all?
7. 1Jn 4:14 Jesus is Savior of the world Why don't we believe it?
8. Jn 12:32 Jesus will draw all mankind unto Himself To roast or to love?
9. Col 1:16 By Him all were created Will He lose a part of His creation?
10. Rm 5:15-21 In Adam all condemned, in Christ all live The same all?
11. 1Cor 15:22 In Adam all die, in Christ all live Again, the same all?
12. Eph 1:10 All come into Him at the fullness of times Are you getting tired of seeing the word, all?
13. Phl 2:9-11 Every tongue shall confess Jesus is Lord Will the Holy Spirit be given to everyone?
14. 1 Cor 12:3 Cannot confess except by Holy Spirit See what I mean?
15. Rm 11:26 All Israel will be saved But most Jews don't believe yet!
16. Acts 3:20,21 Restitution of all How plain can you get?
17. Luke 2:10 Jesus will be joy to all people Is there joy is "hell"?
18. Heb 8:11,12 All will know God How long, O Lord?
19. Eph 2:7 His grace shown in the ages to come Have we judged Him before the time?
20. Titus 2:11 Grace has appeared to all Experientially to prophetically?
21. Rm 8:19-21 Creation set at liberty How much of creation?
22. Col 1:20 All reconciled unto God There's that word "all" again.
23. 1Cor 4:5 All will have praise of God What for?
24. Jms 5:11 End of the Lord is full of mercy Is "hell" mercy?
25. Rev 15:4 All nations worship when God's judgments are seen Could His judgment be mercy?
26. Rm 11:32 All subject to unbelief, mercy on all All?
27. Rm 11:36 All out of, through, and into Him All into Him?
28. Eph 4:10 Jesus will fill all things Including "hell?"
29. Rev 5:13 All creation seen praising God Including Satan?
30. 1Cor 15:28 God will be all in all What does that mean, preacher?
31. Rev 21:4,5 No more tears, all things made new "All" made new?
32. Jn 5:25 All dead who hear will live How many will hear?
33. Jn 5:28 All in the grave will hear & come forth How will the "righteous" judge, judge?
34. 1 Cor 3:15 All saved, so as by fire How can fire save you?
35. Mk 9:49 Everyone shall be salted with fire Including you?
36. Rm 11:15 Reconciliation of the world Will fire save the world instead of destroy it?
37. 2Cor 5:15 Jesus died for all Did He died in vain?
38. Jn 8:29 Jesus always does what pleases His Father What pleases the Father? (1Tim 2:4)
39. Heb 1:2 Jesus is Heir of all things Does "things" include people?
40. Jn 3:35 All has been given into Jesus' hands Can you accept this?
41. Jn 17:2 Jesus gives eternal life to all that His Father gave Him How many did the Father give Him?
42. Jn 13:35 The Father gave Him all things Study the word "things" in the Greek.
43. 1 Tim 4:9-11 Jesus is Savior of all! Can't seem to get away from that word "all."
44. Heb. 7:25 Jesus is able to save to the uttermost How far is "uttermost?"
45. 1Cor 15:26 Last enemy, death, will be destroyed Including "lake of fire" which is "second death?"
46. Is 46:10 God will do all His pleasure Does Old Testament agree with the New?
47. Gen 18:18 All families of the earth will be blessed Here comes that word "all" again.
48. Dan 4:35 God's will done in heaven and earth What can defeat His will?
49. Ps 66:3,4 Enemies will submit to God Can any stay rebellious in "hell?"
50. Ps 90:3 God turns man to destruction, then says return How can one return from "destruction?"
51. Is 25:7 Will destroy veil spread over all nations All nations?
52. Deut 32:39 He kills and makes alive Kills to bring life?
53. Ps 33:15 God fashions all hearts "All" hearts, including men like "Hitler?"
54. Prv 16:9 Man devises, God directs his steps What about "free will?"
55. Prv 19:21 Man devises, but God's counsel stands So much for "free will."
56. La 3:31,32 God will not cast off forever Why does He cast off in the first place? (1 Cor 11)
57. Is 2:2 All nations shall flow to the Lord's house "All" nations?
58. Ps 86:9 All nations will worship Him "All" nations!
59. Is 45:23 All descendants of Israel justified Including the wicked ones?
60. Ps 138:4 All kings will praise God Are you catching on?
61. Ps 65:2-4 All flesh will come to God That sounds wondrous.
62. Ps 72:18 God only does wondrous things I wish we would believe that.
63. Is 19:14,15 Egypt & Assyria will be restored Really?
64. Ezk 16:55 Sodom will be restored to former estate Sounds impossible.
65. Jer 32:17 Nothing is too difficult for Him Nothing? No, nothing!
66. Ps 22:27 All ends of the earth will turn to Him For what purpose?
67. Ps 22:27 All families will worship before Him Praise His name!
68. Ps 145:9 He is good to all Including your worst enemies.
69. Ps 145:9 His mercies are over all his works Let's start believing that.
70. Ps 145:14 He raises all who fall Who hasn't fallen in sin?
71. Ps 145:10 All His works will praise Him For "eternal torment?"
72. Is 25:6 Lord makes a feast for all people And you are invited.
73. Jer 32:35 Never entered His mind to torture his children with fire This came from the carnal mind.
74. Jn 6:44 No one can come to Him unless He draws them You can't "chose" to follow Him.
75. Jn 12:32 I will draw all mankind unto Myself Amen!!!
76. Ps 135:6 God does what pleases Him If it pleases Him to save all that He might be in all, are you upset?

The death of living for sin, error, missing the mark, is the second death. The death of deathly living which was inherited from Adam. The glory of our lives living in Adam, in our sinful nature falls far short of the Glory of living in a sinless life, no error, hitting the mark. The Glory of the Latter House will be far greater than the glory of the former house, not only in terms of quantity, but in terms of quality. The covering the Adam had was far from the Glory that Jesus has. Jesus' covering is our True covering. "In Him we live and move and have our being." (Acts 17:28)

[True Disciple]

Re: Christianity can be FUN!

My friend, are you taking me seriously?
This reply of yours is even worse than the one before, as you more or less keep repeating the same thing over and over again, as if that would invalidate my objections about them. Also, you accuse me multiple times of not reading your replies, while I addressed every point you made last post, I believe. Only, a lot of your points were irrelevant, so I did not spend much time on them.

I explained the meaning behind every instance of aionas ton aionon in the Bible. The word aionas is never used to mean forever, sorry. Not in the Bible, not in any Ancient Greek work. Never.

Yeah, of course, if you repeat your statement often enough, it becomes true.

I am not speaking about aionas, I am speaking about aionas ton aionon. I do not say aionas means "eternal," I'm saying aionas ton aionon, "age of the ages," means forever.
My friend, this word is universally used in the New Testament to describe God's reign and glory. Either you deny that God's reign and glory are eternal (even though there are numerous other instances where this is described as "eternal," which is why it is a fundamental Christian dogma), or you accept that this word means eternal, and accept as well that Revelations really speaks about being tormented (or touchstoned) forever in the Lake of Fire).

Please, I'm interested in knowing what makes you an authority on Ancient Greek grammar. You presume the meaning of the word based on your interpretation of the Bible, that did not exist until hundreds of years after Christ, in an eternal hell, an idea of pagan origin, which none of the early Christians taught. It was invented by Catholics.

http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Aion_lim.shtml

That explains the meaning of the word.

My dear friend, have you read my requests in several previous posts?
I asked you to stop linking to other sites without explaining what exactly it is that disproves my argument. Because it is still inconsiderate and anti-social to let me sift through these huge documents to find the relevant parts. Just tell me, in your own words, what the point is, and we can discuss it.

Nevertheless, I have read the part about aionian in your link about the New Testament. They rightly point out that this word has been used several times to mean things temporal outside the New Testament.
However, the word is treated together with aion, as if it is already certain that they would mean the same in the New Testament. The context, as I've shown several times, contradicts this. Consequently, only one occurrence of aionian is directly addressed in their entire part about the New Testament. This is about 2Cor 4:17, and the argument is that, because the literal text says "an excessively exceeding aionian weight," aionian cannot mean eternal, because it is exceeded. I have argued before that this could just as well be a poetic pleonasm, like "to eternity and beyond."
So, this one doesn't really disprove anything, as far as I have seen. Furthermore, the point you are still missing is that usage outside the Bible doesn't matter, what matters is how the apostles used it, and the context makes that very clear. I'm not an authority on Greek grammar, and if I were, it wouldn't matter, because that's the appeal to authority fallacy. The point I'm making is that, if you want what people meant, and you doubt about a word, the first place to look is the context.

Again, answer this question or be silent:
Why are aionion and aionas ton aionon almost exclusively applied to things eternal, if they would denote something temporal? This would create a huge contradiction. How do you explain this?

Yes. Notice the DATES when these changes took place though. Was it before or after Biblical times?

Why does that matter? If a words can change their meaning to mean something practically opposite now, why couldn't that have been so in the past as well? What invisible barrier is there, preventing words from changing meaning some time ago, and allowing words to change meaning now? That doesn't make any sense, friend.

If you read what I wrote, you would see I explained the meaning of the word in all of the verses we discussed.

Do not tell lies. I never found you answering this question.

You have memory problems. You said, "even if it were a contradiction...", to which I gave my reply.

This didn't become clear from the way you replied back then. I thought you said my explanation was wrong.

My, you aren't even reading what YOU wrote! You said what isn't to be taken literally is the phrase "to eternity and beyond." Where in the Bible does it say that doesn't have to be taken literally?

My dear friend, once again you're speaking complete nonsense. I used the example of "to eternity and beyond" to explain how someone could say this sentence without implying that eternity would be limited. I never said that we shouldn't take this phrase literally, and its literal meaning is just "eternal."

The context tells me Jesus saves everyone. I posted the relevant scripture, which you ignored.

My friend, I mean the direct context of an occurrence of aionion, not something several verses down. And the direct context is very often eternal things, which implies that the writers meant it as such, otherwise they would be completely contradicting themselves. I addressed the Scripture you posted, and told you this already. You do understand the word "context," do you?

I explained the meaning of the lake of fire and brimstone in a quote which you ignored.

If you are speaking about the quote about the positive sides off fire and brimstone, I didn't ignore it, but I already said that it is irrelevant. Fire and brimstone can have medicinal or purifying properties. That's true, but why throw people for eternity into a lake of the stuff? To purify someone forever? In what way is this different from eternal torment?
And the combination of fire and sulfur is well known for its usage in torture methods.

I did explain it. Greek has its own ways of referencing eternal, which are used in the New Testament.

Again you don't answer my question. Do you deliberately misunderstand it? I know that Greek has additional ways to express eternity, and they apply them frequently to the reign of God. Therefore, it would generate a huge contradiction if aionas ton aionon suddenly meant something temporal. This was my question: why is some adjective which has a temporal meaning almost always applied to things which are eternal?

It states quite clearly that there is no more death at all.

Mr. Millennium, how often do I need to repeat this? The last mention of "there shall be no death" is followed four verses down by evil people who are in the Lake of Fire, the second death. So the "no death" mention applies only to the people who are with Jesus, not those who are burning, as they clearly are in the "second death." You've explained the second death below, but didn't address the possible eternity of it.

You understand precisely why it is relevant, don't lie now.

Well, I've tried to guess earlier in this reply, but if you want to make an argument, explain what you mean in your own words. Just copy-pasting things without mentioning your purpose in doing so only brings confusion, my friend.

I was just referring to all the grumpy emoticons you were using. I never said you were mean.

Well, I've explained why I sometimes was mean. You can consider that explanation to explain as well why I can be emotional at times.

The only "church" I belong to is the universal love of Christ. I don't need to be ruled by the traditions of men.

Well, I follow the Word Of God(tm). You only do it to an extent where you can twist them into different meanings to suit your worldviews. You are free to do so, but it doesn't make you a True Christian(tm), and barely even a false one. It's sad to see friendly people like you go to Hell.

It's sweet you seem to think your arguments have defeated mine. It's okay

Well, as you haven't provided much arguments at all this time, I'm convinced of this even more now!

God will forgive you for adhering to pagan myths rather than the Bible. He loves you, too.

Wow, this is extraordinarily hypocritical. You keep pointing to sources outside the Bible, like Plato, and making up definitions of words without looking at the context of the Bible. I, on the other hand, keep pointing to the context, which is the best way to discover what the writers meant. I'm the one here following the Bible, whatever it says. You are the one who makes up new meanings for words if they do not suit his worldviews. You should be ashamed of yourself!

This last reply of yours gave me the impression that you are not even caring much anymore to read my arguments. I have explained why aionian cannot mean something temporal: it is almost always applied to things which are eternal. You haven't been able to present a counter-argument to this point. The same is true for aionas ton aionon.
Also, you have resorted more and more to accusing me of not reading your replies, which, as I have showed this time, is dishonest. However, your answers seldom answer my objections, as they mostly are just repeats of statements you already made, and which I already refuted. It's hard to take you seriously this way, friend.
Again, please do away with your stubbornness, and just try to consider that what you have been taught all your life might be wrong.

YIC

True Disciple

[Cranky Old Man]

Re: Christianity can be FUN!

Will this thread ever go back to Christian fun? Which reminds me, I had some great fun yesterday beating some sense into one of my sons with my new JesPad™ with the latest JesOS™. It's even better than hitting him with my Holy Bible.

[True Disciple]

Re: Christianity can be FUN!

Will this thread ever go back to Christian fun? Which reminds me, I had some great fun yesterday beating some sense into one of my sons with my new JesPad™ with the latest JesOS™. It's even better than hitting him with my Holy Bible.

Great idea! Being 23 years old, I don't have any sons yet, as I'm not married yet (though my eye has fallen on little Joannie Smith of Church Lane 315, she's almost fifteen now), but I can use this kind of advice when raising children!

My mother always hit me too with the bible. She had one with an iron cover, which was specially designed for hitting purposes! I'm still looking forward to the day when I will finally have a wife to test my manly authority. That will be such fun!

[Serenity-Millennium]

Re: Christianity can be FUN!

Great idea! Being 23 years old, I don't have any sons yet, as I'm not married yet (though my eye has fallen on little Joannie Smith of Church Lane 315, she's almost fifteen now), but I can use this kind of advice when raising children!

My mother always hit me too with the bible. She had one with an iron cover, which was specially designed for hitting purposes! I'm still looking forward to the day when I will finally have a wife to test my manly authority. That will be such fun!

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. I understand, it's hard for people like you to break off the shakles of ignorance and step into the light of reason, but eventually you will I'm sure of it, my beautiful brother in Christ! I can't wait til we're all in heaven singing kumbya together. You won't have to apologize for being wrong, then, brother. There's no need for that when we're all sharing in the love of JESUS!

Anyway, where was I before we got sidetracked by your Biblical misconceptions? Oh, right!

Matthew 6: 24"You can't worship two gods at once. Loving one god, you'll end up hating the other. Adoration of one feeds contempt for the other. You can't worship God and Money both.

[Cranky Old Man]

Re: Christianity can be FUN!

... Matthew 6: 24 ...

You used the wrong version, but you probably already knew that. It's great you are here to keep us sharp. Pity you will burn in hell one day.

[True Disciple]

Re: Christianity can be FUN!

I can't wait til we're all in heaven singing kumbya together.

I don't think I will ever be singing Kumbaya, my friend. You are a nice person, it pains me you will likely go to Hell. However, I will be praying for you! You are one of the most vehement opponents of Christianity(tm) I've met here so far, but so was Paul, and he repented too! I hope Jesus will make you stop twisting His Words in the Bible, and turn you into a real Bible-believing Christian(tm) someday!

[Serenity-Millennium]

Re: Christianity can be FUN!

I don't believe I'm a vehement opponent of Christianity, but then, who am I to judge? You have the right to your beliefs

BTW- I love, love LOVE these beautiful medals you've given me. They're so funny, thanks guys I wish I could give you all a great big hug

Matthew 7

A Simple Guide for Behavior

1-5 "Don't pick on people, jump on their failures, criticize their faults— unless, of course, you want the same treatment. That critical spirit has a way of boomeranging. It's easy to see a smudge on your neighbor's face and be oblivious to the ugly sneer on your own. Do you have the nerve to say, 'Let me wash your face for you,' when your own face is distorted by contempt? It's this whole traveling road-show mentality all over again, playing a holier-than-thou part instead of just living your part. Wipe that ugly sneer off your own face, and you might be fit to offer a washcloth to your neighbor.

[True Disciple]

Re: Christianity can be FUN!

BTW- I love, love LOVE these beautiful medals you've given me. They're so funny, thanks guys

I thought you deserved that A For Effort medal for your ceaseless resistance againts Biblical Fact. I'm glad you like it!

[Cranky Old Man]

Re: Christianity can be FUN!

BTW- I love, love LOVE these beautiful medals you've given me. They're so funny, thanks guys

You're most welcome.

[Serenity-Millennium]

Re: Christianity can be FUN!

I'm glad we're not fighting anymore! You guys are the best! I hope we can all be super-duper great friends

Matthew 13

A Harvest Story

1-3 At about that same time Jesus left the house and sat on the beach. In no time at all a crowd gathered along the shoreline, forcing him to get into a boat. Using the boat as a pulpit, he addressed his congregation, telling stories. 3-8"What do you make of this? A farmer planted seed. As he scattered the seed, some of it fell on the road, and birds ate it. Some fell in the gravel; it sprouted quickly but didn't put down roots, so when the sun came up it withered just as quickly. Some fell in the weeds; as it came up, it was strangled by the weeds. Some fell on good earth, and produced a harvest beyond his wildest dreams.
9"Are you listening to this? Really listening?"




The Meaning of the Harvest Story

18-19"Study this story of the farmer planting seed. When anyone hears news of the kingdom and doesn't take it in, it just remains on the surface, and so the Evil One comes along and plucks it right out of that person's heart. This is the seed the farmer scatters on the road. 20-21"The seed cast in the gravel—this is the person who hears and instantly responds with enthusiasm. But there is no soil of character, and so when the emotions wear off and some difficulty arrives, there is nothing to show for it.
22"The seed cast in the weeds is the person who hears the kingdom news, but weeds of worry and illusions about getting more and wanting everything under the sun strangle what was heard, and nothing comes of it.
23"The seed cast on good earth is the person who hears and takes in the News, and then produces a harvest beyond his wildest dreams."

[True Disciple]

Re: Christianity can be FUN!

My dear friend, could you please stop posting videos featuring prancing homosexuals on this site? We take offense to that.

Thank you kindly.

[Serenity-Millennium]

Re: Christianity can be FUN!

Don't worry, I never posted any videos featuring homosexuals. (And even if I did, so what?)

Luke 16

The Rich Man and Lazarus

19-21"There once was a rich man, expensively dressed in the latest fashions, wasting his days in conspicuous consumption. A poor man named Lazarus, covered with sores, had been dumped on his doorstep. All he lived for was to get a meal from scraps off the rich man's table. His best friends were the dogs who came and licked his sores. 22-24"Then he died, this poor man, and was taken up by the angels to the lap of Abraham. The rich man also died and was buried. In hell and in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham in the distance and Lazarus in his lap. He called out, 'Father Abraham, mercy! Have mercy! Send Lazarus to dip his finger in water to cool my tongue. I'm in agony in this fire.'
25-26"But Abraham said, 'Child, remember that in your lifetime you got the good things and Lazarus the bad things. It's not like that here. Here he's consoled and you're tormented. Besides, in all these matters there is a huge chasm set between us so that no one can go from us to you even if he wanted to, nor can anyone cross over from you to us.'
27-28"The rich man said, 'Then let me ask you, Father: Send him to the house of my father where I have five brothers, so he can tell them the score and warn them so they won't end up here in this place of torment.'
29"Abraham answered, 'They have Moses and the Prophets to tell them the score. Let them listen to them.'
30"'I know, Father Abraham,' he said, 'but they're not listening. If someone came back to them from the dead, they would change their ways.'
31"Abraham replied, 'If they won't listen to Moses and the Prophets, they're not going to be convinced by someone who rises from the dead.'"