[Cranky Old Man]

Re: The Bible is PRO-CHOICE!

Unfortunately, anti-choicers usually stop right there, and forget the rest of Verse 5, which negates their preferred meaning: "...'and I appointed you a prophet to the nations.'"
This passage is specific to one, very special person—Jeremiah the prophet, whom God has called to provide miraculous powers and authority to the world. Since we are not all destined to be divine prophets, this verse cannot be construed as applying to any fetus except the unborn Jeremiah.

Why not? Why do you assume that God knew Jeremiah before he was conceived, we seem to agree on that, and yet at the same time you assume God is incapable of doing the same thing for all other people who were ever born? It seems highly unlikely to me that somehow God lost that ability. If God could foresee Jeremiah, he can do it for everyone.

I also don't get that the fact that God wanted to know a certain number "Count every male a month old and older" means that everyone not counted can therefore be killed. According to your line of reasoning killing women should be allowed since they where not counted as well.

Your general argument seem to be that because you pay less money or get less punishment for killing an unborn child, it therefore is automatically allowed. I am very interested to know how you are going to explain away Exodus 20:13 "Thou shalt not kill.". It doesn't seem to say "Thou shalt not kill every male a month old and older.".

[True Disciple]

Re: The Bible is PRO-CHOICE!

Unfortunately, anti-choicers usually stop right there, and forget the rest of Verse 5, which negates their preferred meaning:
"...'and I appointed you a prophet to the nations.'"
This passage is specific to one, very special person—Jeremiah the prophet, whom God has called to provide miraculous powers and authority to the world. Since we are not all destined to be divine prophets, this verse cannot be construed as applying to any fetus except the unborn Jeremiah. Again, anti-choicers are being dishonest by pulling this verse totally out of its context.

Your capability for reason and common sense has left you again, mr. Millennium.

You are ignoring the point Brother Cranky made with this passage: that babies less than a month old are not worthless to God.

Besides my amazement that you seriously believe that Our Loving God would not care about babies (He ordered the shepherds in Bethlehem to kneel before Jesus, when He clearly was less than a month old), I think I need to remind you that according to this passage, at least one unborn baby (Jeremiah) was of importance to God, which disproves your universal negative that all these babies are worthless to God.

Additionally the Scripture supporting your viewpoints just omits a reference to the worth of babies of less than a month old. It does not say these babies are worthless, that is your own interpretation, which does not follow from this passage.

Let's turn now to the several Biblical passages that actually mention abortion or miscarriage. Ironically, in spite of God giving divine status to the prophet Jeremiah while he was in the womb, Jeremiah emphatically rejects this for himself. Later in his book, he wishes he had been aborted! The following passage is a lamentation by Jeremiah:

"Cursed be the day on which I was born! The day when my mother bore me, let it not be blessed! Cursed be the man who brought the news to my father, 'A son is born to you', making him very glad. Let that man be like the cities which the Lord overthrew without pity; let him hear a cry in the morning and an alarm at noon, because he did not kill me in the womb; so my mother would have been my grave, and her womb for ever great." (Jeremiah 20:14-17)

In verse 18, he concludes with the anguished cry:

"Why did I come forth from the womb to see toil and sorrow, and spend my days in shame?"

He wished he was aborted, but apparently God didn't want him to, even though Jeremiah would be facing a life filled with grief. Doesn't this very passage prove God is pro-life?

Otherwise, He would have spared Jeremiah from these terrible events, and have his mother suffer a miscarriage. But as we can see in the verse Brother Cranky quoted, God didn't do so, because, unlike you, He didn't think an unborn baby was worthless.

[Miss Cassandra]

Re: The Bible is PRO-CHOICE!

Of course, only the parts that I agree with can be really divinely inspired

How could that be, Serenity? I don't understand you here. That means that you only agree with the Bible when it, well, already agrees with you. Which means that you already have made up your mind.

I think that's a great thing!

If you want to know good and evil, don't trust some ancient book other people wrote, trust your heart. The Mother Goddess will teach us.

But you should be accepting of ALL people!!! I love, love LOVE the people here on Landover!

That's easier for you than for me. I grew up here, while I think you haven't been here very often.

You see, when you, during your entire childhood:

- hear every day that you are of the inferior gender
- get beaten senseless several times a day for transgressions like playing with toy cars (a boy thing) and shouting: "sh*t" when you fall off your bike.
- are scared out of your mind by stories about hell.
- are forced to obey your parents in the plan they had for your future, being a good "true christian housewife."
- are taught that all people who disagree with you are demons

and then struggle free from this mental slavery, you are bound to dislike these people. You are a nice person, mr. Serenity, but I don't think you know what it's like to grow up here.

Of course. By now, Hitler, Mao, and Stalin have been basking in the warm eternal bliss of God's love for decades, just as they deserve.

I see you've left out Pastor Zeke. I can understand that!

Not worthless, just not a human being.

Serenity, I really don't want to believe that you really think that there is nothing wrong with killing a baby less than a month old. You are a way too nice person for thinking so.

Do you have children? If you have, imagine you hold your firstborn son or daughter. If then a man marches into the room and shoots and kills the baby, what would you do? Would you say: well, a newborn baby is not a human being, so you are not a murderer according to Exodus 21:22-25? Or would you sue this person for murder?

The Bible isn't evil. The Bible is warmth and love, rainbows, puppies and lolipops! You shouldn't be so judgmental, it makes Jesus cry

Yes, but that's when you remove the evil parts, like those misogynic part you spoke about.
Look at yourself, you're a nice person who flows with love for your fellow men, that true, right? But this book makes you say that a newborn baby is not a human being! You see, that's what made me completely lose faith in the Bible: it makes good people do and say evil things! If you follow your heart, you won't need the bible! The Moon Goddess will guide you, she loves us!

So basically, ending the life of someone less than a month old = not murder.

Calling someone an idiot = murder.

I hope we're clear on this

Well, according to the bible I may be a murderer for calling someone an idiot, and someone who murders babies is not, but that only proves how twisted and evil the bible is.
I do not intend to attack you personally with this, Serenity, in fact you are one of the few people here on this forum who is really nice! It's just that I can't see how the bible could be seen as a good book in any way.

Thanks for responding to me! I think these people can learn a lot from you when it comes to compassion and basic morality! It is great to talk with you!

[Serenity-Millennium]

Re: The Bible is PRO-CHOICE!

Your general argument seem to be that because you pay less money or get less punishment for killing an unborn child, it therefore is automatically allowed. I am very interested to know how you are going to explain away Exodus 20:13 "Thou shalt not kill.". It doesn't seem to say "Thou shalt not kill every male a month old and older.".

Such Biblical support for abortion forces us to speculate that perhaps what anti-choicers mean by God's law is that unequivocal Sixth Commandment, "Thou shalt not kill" (Exodus 20:13), since they condemn abortion as murder. That there is no Biblical justification for this belief, we have already seen. Whatever the arguments are for the full humanity of the fetus, it is clear they do not originate from the "Holy Scriptures." Be that as it may, let's indulge anti-choicers' claims for a moment and probe into the nature of the Sixth Commandment and its implications for the abortion battle.

One would think that although fallible human beings may or may not abide by this commandment, certainly God himself, as the creator of this law, and as the omnipotent, wise, and perfect being that he is thought to be, should be setting a shining example for us by acting as the quintessential role model.

What do we find when we examine the Scriptures? Regrettably, even a casual search uncovers the most shocking, barbaric, and revolting atrocities, all directly committed, ordered, or condoned by God himself. However, let's put most of these aside for now and confine ourselves solely to the passages that deal with God's murder of children. Unfortunately, there are many. Let's begin with this little gem, a popular story some of us first learned in Sunday school:

"And Moses said, 'Thus says the Lord: About midnight I will go forth in the midst of Egypt and all the first-born in the land of Egypt shall die; from the first-born of Pharaoh who sits upon his throne, even to the first-born of the maidservant who is behind the mill; and all the first-born of the cattle.'" (Exodus 11:4-5)

In Exodus 12:29, God carries out the dastardly deed.
Moses, the great liberator of Israel and God's right hand man, so to speak, had this to say to his victorious soldiers fresh from battle with all their "booty:"

Now therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who has known man by lying with him. But all the young girls who have not known man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves." (Numbers 31:17-18)

In war of course, children are not exempt from being victims. Numerous
verses and passages document that entire populations, including children, were killed off at the command of God. For example, God orders one of his faithful servants to:

"...go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have; do not spare them, but kill both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass." (I Samuel 15:3.)

[True Disciple]

Re: The Bible is PRO-CHOICE!

Mr. Millennium, why are you not addressing the criticisms of me and Brother Cranky regarding your mutilation of Exodus 21:22-25, and try to sidetrack us with other passages? Or do you really believe that not being mentioned in that list makes babies less than a month old inhuman?

And please, I think little Cassie here might want to know whether or not you regard women as human beings. According to your logic, as Brother Cranky already pointed out, they are not.

[Serenity-Millennium]

Re: The Bible is PRO-CHOICE!

How could that be, Serenity? I don't understand you here. That means that you only agree with the Bible when it, well, already agrees with you. Which means that you already have made up your mind.

I think that's a great thing!

If you want to know good and evil, don't trust some ancient book other people wrote, trust your heart. The Mother Goddess will teach us.

Well ALL religions are a path to God (including having no religion) so in the end, it doesn't really matter. But the Bible is definitely God's loving gift to personkind

and then struggle free from this mental slavery, you are bound to dislike these people. You are a nice person, mr. Serenity, but I don't think you know what it's like to grow up here.

That may be, but still, Jesus tells us to LOVE, LOVE, LOVE EVERYONE no matter what. He's crying seeing how much hate is in your heart

I see you've left out Pastor Zeke. I can understand that!

The Pastor is not yet deceased, but when he dies, he will surely be called into the Lord's bosom along with everyone else

Do you have children? If you have, imagine you hold your firstborn son or daughter. If then a man marches into the room and shoots and kills the baby, what would you do? Would you say: well, a newborn baby is not a human being, so you are not a murderer according to Exodus 21:22-25? Or would you sue this person for murder?

Of course I would never sue them. Nobody should ever be judged for ANY reason whatsoever, that's what Jesus told us. The whole legal system is an abomination! I wish I could open up all the prisons and let those poor men free, and show them the loving kindness of Christ.


Matthew 5: 25-26"Or say you're out on the street and an old enemy accosts you. Don't lose a minute. Make the first move; make things right with him. After all, if you leave the first move to him, knowing his track record, you're likely to end up in court, maybe even jail. If that happens, you won't get out without a stiff fine.
Matthew 5:40


Love Your Enemies

38-42"Here's another old saying that deserves a second look: 'Eye for eye, tooth for tooth.' Is that going to get us anywhere? Here's what I propose: 'Don't hit back at all.' If someone strikes you, stand there and take it. If someone drags you into court and sues for the shirt off your back, giftwrap your best coat and make a present of it. And if someone takes unfair advantage of you, use the occasion to practice the servant life. No more tit-for-tat stuff. Live generously.


1 Corinthians 6: 5-6I say this as bluntly as I can to wake you up to the stupidity of what you're doing. Is it possible that there isn't one levelheaded person among you who can make fair decisions when disagreements and disputes come up? I don't believe it. And here you are taking each other to court before people who don't even believe in God! How can they render justice if they don't believe in the God of justice? 7-8These court cases are an ugly blot on your community. Wouldn't it be far better to just take it, to let yourselves be wronged and forget it? All you're doing is providing fuel for more wrong, more injustice, bringing more hurt to the people of your own spiritual family.

Look at yourself, you're a nice person who flows with love for your fellow men, that true, right? But this book makes you say that a newborn baby is not a human being! You see, that's what made me completely lose faith in the Bible: it makes good people do and say evil things! If you follow your heart, you won't need the bible! The Moon Goddess will guide you, she loves us!

It's very unfair of you to say I have to worship your Goddess All religions are paths to heaven, you shouldn't be so pushy.

Thanks for responding to me! I think these people can learn a lot from you when it comes to compassion and basic morality! It is great to talk with you!

Thank you, my beautiful sister in Christ

[Raven.]

Re: The Bible is PRO-CHOICE!

How could that be, Serenity? I don't understand you here. That means that you only agree with the Bible when it, well, already agrees with you. Which means that you already have made up your mind.

I think that's a great thing!

If you want to know good and evil, don't trust some ancient book other people wrote, trust your heart. The Mother Goddess will teach us.

Ah, if only trust your heart was a main philosophical approach for this all, its great to hear that idea being stated here. it would remove the need to scavenge through passages in a book as if we are lawyers in a murder case. This makes interperating the constitution a breeze.

May faith come from the will to be good then the fear to be.

Raven

[Serenity-Millennium]

Re: The Bible is PRO-CHOICE!

Mr. Millennium, why are you not addressing the criticisms of me and Brother Cranky regarding your mutilation of Exodus 21:22-25, and try to sidetrack us with other passages? Or do you really believe that not being mentioned in that list makes babies less than a month old inhuman?

But God does sometimes approve of killing unborn babies:

Numbers 31: 13-18 Moses, Eleazar, and all the leaders of the congregation went to meet the returning army outside the camp. Moses was furious with the army officers—the commanders of thousands and commanders of hundreds—as they came back from the battlefield: "What's this! You've let these women live! They're the ones who, under Balaam's direction, seduced the People of Israel away from God in that mess at Peor, causing the plague that hit God's people. Finish your job: kill all the boys. Kill every woman who has slept with a man. The younger women who are virgins you can keep alive for yourselves.

Hosea 9: 14Give it to them, God! But what?
Give them a dried-up womb and shriveled breasts.

Hosea 9:15-16"All their evil came out into the open
at the pagan shrine at Gilgal. Oh, how I hated them there!
Because of their evil practices,
I'll kick them off my land.
I'm wasting no more love on them.
Their leaders are a bunch of rebellious adolescents.
Ephraim is hit hard—
roots withered, no more fruit.
Even if by some miracle they had children,
the dear babies wouldn't live—I'd make sure of that!"

Hosea 13: 15-16"God's tornado is on its way,
roaring out of the desert.
It will devastate the country,
leaving a trail of ruin and wreckage.
The cities will be gutted,
dear possessions gone for good.
Now Samaria has to face the charges
because she has rebelled against her God:
Her people will be killed, babies smashed on the rocks,
pregnant women ripped open."

And he also sometimes kills newborn babies:

2 Samuel 12:13-14 Then David confessed to Nathan, "I've sinned against God."
Nathan pronounced, "Yes, but that's not the last word. God forgives your sin. You won't die for it. But because of your blasphemous behavior, the son born to you will die."

[Serenity-Millennium]

Re: The Bible is PRO-CHOICE!

Ah, if only trust your heart was a main philosophical approach for this all, its great to hear that idea being stated here. it would remove the need to scavenge through passages in a book as if we are lawyers in a murder case. This makes interperating the constitution a breeze.

May faith come from the will to be good then the fear to be.

Raven

There is no fear in God. Why are you judging me so harshly?

[Forest Spirit]

Re: The Bible is PRO-CHOICE!

Serenity M: You are right, God loves everyone even people who have abortions.

[Serenity-Millennium]

Re: The Bible is PRO-CHOICE!

Serenity M: You are right, God loves everyone even people who have abortions.

Amen! I'm glad my postings here have helped show people the warm love of God evident in the Bible.

[Raven.]

Re: The Bible is PRO-CHOICE!

There is no fear in God. Why are you judging me so harshly?

its not fear in god, but fear of being a sinner there for we must be good. thats how i see it in a sense, why i find that whatever your heart tells you is what you should follow. if you find that the bible is god's loving gift to person kind stick to it! of coarse, showing people your thoughts is great but i personalty shrug the idea of doing so, to many biases and all stated as truth.

but, as you intemperate the book and find faith stick close by it for it'll be better then wrapping yourself around others words and taking that as truth even if contradictions exist.

Raven

[Nobar King]

Re: The Bible is PRO-CHOICE!

[James Hutchins]

Re: The Bible is PRO-CHOICE!

Listen up. This is a Christian web site. Not some hippy dippy slut house. You continue this trash talking and this thread will be closed.

[Sariel]

Re: The Bible is PRO-CHOICE!

Amen! I'm glad my postings here have helped show people the warm love of God evident in the Bible.

That's pretty much the only part of the bible which i like, the part where love and peace is stressed
I dont know which verse, chapter or book it's in, but i'm sure it's in there somewhere