[Thinks Design]

Re: May Allah have mercy on us all

You are the not trolls here. “No debates we are scared” “im going to edit your posts you have no rights here bla bla bla”

I am not a true believe in God. The God of Adam, Abraham, Moses and Jesus and Muhammad may God be pleased with them all.

On the other side you are believers in Paul and in King James.

Ps: more infractions please I want more points. And tell my father he owes me male prostitution money

If you do not believe in a creator why are you even here? I’m sure as I can be because there is creator and that only reinforces what I believe but it’s NOT blind faith!

I’m not sure if the King James is the right one but I think it could be and I’m pretty intuitive (sometimes I think something and then something happens but I’m no psychic actually).

You seem to think Jesus is not real but does he have to be? If he really is perfect like they say he does not need to be real so you could be right and the more hard head people here might be right at the same time.

It’s about respecting each other’s view. I have and opinion and so do you but the only way to know who is right is how you feel and that mean BOTH of us can be right.

The creator who ai believed designed everything may have made a Jesus for you to be him but you chose not to accept him. Maybe the hell you will go to won’t be so bad but from a Christian point of view would be torment.

For example I have no problem with gay people but sexism is something I hate when men do it: I firmly believe that women should be treated as if they were equal to men.

That would be hell for a Christian. For me a cis gender opening a door for me would be torment. If you can see the hills for the tree you can open your heart and move into somebody else’s shoes.

Would that be so bad? If you want to DM me to talk more please do.

ThinksDesign

[MustBeOnDrugs]

Re: May Allah have mercy on us all

This person is lamely claiming in ignorance that Jesus would not have uttered Testimony about His divinity. In addition to the beautiful pieces of evidence presented by Brother Pim, we have one additional verse:

John 10:30
I and my Father are one.

While the vernacular of the Palestinian provinces was Aramaic during Christ's corporeal séjour on Earth, Greek was widely used in those easternmost parts of the Roman Oppression that later gave birth to the Catholic terror and its spin-off, the Islamic cult. Thus, it is prudent to examine this verse in the Greek tongue, as well.

ἐγὼ καὶ ὁ Πατὴρ ἕν ἐσμεν.

In this case, the Nestle, the Westcott-Hort, Textus receptus, Byzantine text, and the Tischendorf all agree to the letter, albeit the Byzantine majority text uses Capital letters in sentence case, but, basically, there are no significant textual variants here. So we can safely examine ἐγὼ καὶ ὁ Πατὴρ ἕν ἐσμεν as the definite "original Greek". Does it support the KJV notion that Jesus = God?

• ἐγὼ = I 1st person pronoun, singular nomintive, no ambiguities, "I".
• καὶ = a simple conjunction, "and", no ambiguities.
• ὁ Πατὴρ = "Father", masculine noun in nominative with the definite article "the" again in masculine singular nominative, hence, "the Father". No ambiguities.
• ἕν = Adjectives and numerals are in the same category in Greek. This is neuter nominative singular, a simple "one" with no ambiguities. Do not snigger at its pronunciation "hen", please, Brethren.
• ἐσμεν = "we are", or for those who are familiar with more cumbersome languages that have more extensive conjugations than Godly American, this verb form is the same as the French sommes, Latin sumus, archaic but still ritually used Russian есмы́ (when you wish to express the copula and not just omit it or use есть), Old Saxon sindon (of course, used also for other persons in plural), Icelandic erum, Gothic sijum (from Wulfila's Bible), etc., all present active indicative forms that simply mean "are", with no ambiguities.

So, we can see that Jesus made the glorious uttering He = the Father. The Father = God -> Jesus = God. Ignorance can be cured (1 Peter 2:15). Q.E.D.

No ambiguities.




Yours in Christ,

Elmer

Professor White, I must admit I am extremely surprised about this response, as well as that of Professor Pim. All respect.

However i must admit I am a simple Muslim without the knowledge to refute this. So I will pass this to a Sheikh, God willing, and once he gives me a reply i will get back to you.

At the moment, as i cannot refute you I will accept your argument about John 10:30. But Still this is not enough to convince me because if we accept John 10:30 as true then we have a new problem because Jesus alaihi salam says here:

John 14:28 King James Version (KJV)

28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

if they are equal and the same being why is one greater than the other?

John 5:30
“I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.”

If they are equal and the same person why Jesus cant of himself do nothing? Why they have different wills? Of they are 1 their will should be the same? Is Jesus, God forbid, a “lesser god” ?

This is a contradiction. Jesus cannot be lying, because he didnt lie so the only possible explanation is that altered the scripture. How can you have faith in the whole religion if there are contradictions or the text is not 100% reliable?

[MustBeOnDrugs]

Re: May Allah have mercy on us all

If you do not believe in a creator why are you even here?

Are you slow or something? I do believe in a Creator i believe in God. I just believe God is One and not 3 and that Jesus alaihi salam is the Messiah, the Christ and a mighty Prophet, who was born without a father from the Virgin Mary by the Grace of God. But he is not god.

By the way Im Russian , not Arab. Well im half American because my real father is In Newark look my other post. Im just living in Russia. And put me more emojis please

[Basilissa]

Re: May Allah have mercy on us all

By the way Im Russian , not Arab.

врун. Russians belong to the Eastern Orthodox polytheistic religion, worshiping their icons as if they were deities, in clear contradiction to the Second Commandment:

Leviticus 26:1 - Ye shall make you no idols nor graven image, neither rear you up a standing image, neither shall ye set up [any] image of stone in your land, to bow down unto it: for I [am] the LORD your God.

[Elmer G. White]

Re: May Allah have mercy on us all

...
John 14:28 King James Version (KJV)

28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

if they are equal and the same being why is one greater than the other?

Dear sinner,
This is not a permanent arrangement. This era of ours is but an interregnum that will soon change!

Matthew 28:18
And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

This makes a crucifixion necessary also from the Heavenly viewpoint, as it increased Jesus's powers.

Revelation 5:12
Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

The Book of Revelation tells us that soon Jesus will return any day now and afterwards rule us with all power. Meanwhile, it is necessary to delegate some tasks between different compartments of the Trinity. It is similar to your brain: the temporal lobe takes care of speech and hearing, the occipital lobe controls vision, the frontal lobe your personality and the parietal parts locomotion. Or, for the less educated in science, a good metaphor is the (somewhat evil) theory (only a theory) of psychoanalysis. God is in some ways analogous to Superego, Jesus to Ego and the Holy Spirit to Id. God's meticulous design has delegated your heartbeats and breathing control to your medulla, but are they separate from you? Of course not (or for your benefit in Greek, μὴ γένοιτο, μὴ = a simple adverb "never, not" and γένοιτο = 3rd person singular aorist optative middle voice from the deponent verb γίνομαι "to happen", hence, "that can never happen /of course not")! Do your hypothalamic nuclei know when to produce neurotransmitters or releasing hormones? μὴ γένοιτο! And still they're parts of you.

Even if Jesus (on Earth in His corporeal state) did not know everything the administrative parts of the Deity did, that did not make Him any less part of the Deity.
It is cute that you are reading the Bible, but without Faith® it won't help you (John 3:18). I'm praying for you.


Yours in Christ,

Elmer

[BibleReader2231]

Re: May Alan have mercy on us all

My Pa frequently checks my computer and is appalled that someone would come onto Landover Baptist Church’s forums to display such bad behavior. I highly suggest sir that you check yourself into a facility as my Pa puts it.

Edit: I’m talking to the troll-ish looking man. I know it’s not right for me as a young female to judge men’s appearances but this is no Christian man (if it even is considered one). Also, if you do believe in God as you say you do., you’d see that there’s no Bible verses written by King James. The KJV version is the truest version of The Bible yes but anyone who took the time to open their Bible would know it’s the Testament of God! Not the testament of King James.

[MitzaLizalor]

Re: May Allah have mercy on us all

Adam, Abraham, Moses and Jesus

If you do not believe in a creator why are you even here?

Are you slow or something? I do believe in a Creator i believe in God.

The point here is that The Creator is very clearly described in the only literature we have on this topic. To accept that Jesus existed at all, it's necessary to accept what Injeel. we have, whether The Gospels are a complete record or not. Even if you regard them as fabrications, you still need to accept their reliability for the existence of Jesus because that's all the written evidence there is.

God is Jesus.

Recall my earlier example of a sword. No matter how firmly you hold on to it, no matter how much you want it to be true, the sword is never you. It's not even a part of you. The things you say or do or write or think, these are you. Not even your body is you, because when you die your body still exists. The Greek λογος. conveys that concept rather well. This Injeel. is necessary to understand Genesis chapter 1.

Genesis 1:2-6a The earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness. And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day. And God said, Let there be a firmament etc.

In such a forceful mood the mere word brings into being all that there is. That does not mean the universe is God any more than you, by imparting motion to a sword, become the sword. This point is brought out nicely in a dialogue with Moses. Again you will need to accept Moses’ own testimony that he's a real person and I'm sure you do this so there shouldn't be a problem.

The Israelites have been complaining about free Manna sent down to feed them. No doubt if they'd been charged for it they'd have complained even more. To shut them up, and because He loved them, God was sending quails. (I have some nice recipes incidentally if you're interested.) Moses was not sanguine however and started babbling about fish; this is in the middle of the Sinai desert remember.

Numbers 11:23 And the LORD said unto Moses, Is the LORD'S hand waxed short? Thou shalt see now whether my word shall come to pass unto thee or not.

Moses needed reminding that God is not "the universe" as Moses saw it. God is more even than a speaker of words of power. He is not some wizard muttering over fizzing flames to see what happens. God is manifesting to Moses as the motive power itself, not something He controls: something HE IS. This is The Word, the λογος. and to the extent that you reject this.—.the quoted post [ABOVE] is arguing.—.you reject The Creator as He represents Himself to be.

1. John 21:25 And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.

2. https://www.landoverbaptist.net/showthread.php?p=1247236#post1247236

3. I'm not sure at what point you think The Bible became corrupted. If you accept the existence of Jesus as a real person then presumably passages identifying Jesus are OK. Similarly for Isaiah 42, if you're claiming it as a prediction about Mohammed. In between, as Greek became the lingua franca, a rendition of Israelite traditions into Greek was completed by scholars who understood their own language (obviously) as well as Greek concepts. So although it's necessary for us. to consider both sources for a good understanding, it would not be so for Israelites scholars. They knew which Greek word signified the correct concept.





____________

. . . . .. . . . . ויאמר אלהים יהי אור ויהי־אור
(compare Greek) και εἰπεν ὁ θεος γενηθητω φως και ἐγενετο φως



. . . . .. . . . . ויאמר אלהים יהי רקיע בתוך המים ויהי מבדיל בין מים למים
(compare Greek) και εἰπεν ὁ θεος γενηθητω στερεωμα ἐν μεσῳ του ὑδατος και ἐστω διαχωριζον ἀνα μεσον ὑδατος και ὑδατος και ἐγενετο οὑτως



. . . . .. . . . . ויאמר יהוה אל־משה היד יהוה תקצר עתה תראה היקרך דברי אם־לא
(compare Greek) και εἰπεν κυριος προς Μωυσην μη χειρ κυριου οὐκ ἐξαρκεσει ἠδη γνωσει εἰ ἐπικαταλημψεται σε ὁ λογος μου ἠ οὐ

[MustBeOnDrugs]

Re: May Allah have mercy on us all

Dear sinner,
This is not a permanent arrangement. This era of ours is but an interregnum that will soon change!

Matthew 28:18
And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

This makes a crucifixion necessary also from the Heavenly viewpoint, as it increased Jesus's powers.

Revelation 5:12
Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

The Book of Revelation tells us that soon Jesus will return any day now and afterwards rule us with all power. Meanwhile, it is necessary to delegate some tasks between different compartments of the Trinity. It is similar to your brain: the temporal lobe takes care of speech and hearing, the occipital lobe controls vision, the frontal lobe your personality and the parietal parts locomotion. Or, for the less educated in science, a good metaphor is the (somewhat evil) theory (only a theory) of psychoanalysis. God is in some ways analogous to Superego, Jesus to Ego and the Holy Spirit to Id. God's meticulous design has delegated your heartbeats and breathing control to your medulla, but are they separate from you? Of course not (or for your benefit in Greek, μὴ γένοιτο, μὴ = a simple adverb "never, not" and γένοιτο = 3rd person singular aorist optative middle voice from the deponent verb γίνομαι "to happen", hence, "that can never happen /of course not")! Do your hypothalamic nuclei know when to produce neurotransmitters or releasing hormones? μὴ γένοιτο! And still they're parts of you.

Even if Jesus (on Earth in His corporeal state) did not know everything the administrative parts of the Deity did, that did not make Him any less part of the Deity.
It is cute that you are reading the Bible, but without Faith® it won't help you (John 3:18). I'm praying for you.


Yours in Christ,

Elmer

Can you please take a look a this Professor, and tell me your refutal to this claims about the autenticity of the Gospel of John?

https://islamreigns.wordpress.com/tag/john-1030-the-father-and-i-are-one-does-not-make-one-a-god/

PS: im still trying to contact a Sheikh about this but its proving rather difficult I apologize for that

[Elmer G. White]

Re: May Allah have mercy on us all

Can you please take a look a this Professor, and tell me your refutal to this claims about the autenticity of the Gospel of John?

https://islamreigns.wordpress.com/tag/john-1030-the-father-and-i-are-one-does-not-make-one-a-god/

PS: im still trying to contact a Sheikh about this but its proving rather difficult I apologize for that

Oh, dear!

You've stumbled upon exegetics and the "historical Jesus" seminar. You should understand that based on purely historical methods both the Bible and the Qur'an do not present enough documentation to prove the existence of supernatural events connected to Jesus or your prophet. Based on Bayesian reasoning, we can only reach probabilities, but Faith® is not about probabilities. The "historical Jesus" seminar is a conglomeration of unbelievers. It is much further in its task of raising doubt about God and Jesus than the Islamic scholars are about your deity, but rest assured that similar developments are on their way regarding your founder.

The Bible is adamant when it warns us against this type of scholarship.

1 Timothy 6:20
O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called:

We are very well aware of the attempts to prove scientific foreknowledge in the Qur'an: the alleged embryological data, etc. We are equally aware of textual variations within some of the oldest manuscripts of the Qur'an that your scholars try to avoid. Within the Greek texts of the True Word of God™, the Bible, we acknowledge the textual variants and do not try to hide them. We know that the Greek text was somewhat corrupted and the True Meanings were only restored by the work of the Holy Spirit when the KJV was conceived.

Some of the parchment pages in the Yemeni hoard seemed to date back to the seventh and eighth centuries A.D., or Islam's first two centuries—they were fragments, in other words, of perhaps the oldest Korans in existence. What's more, some of these fragments revealed small but intriguing aberrations from the standard Koranic text. Such aberrations, though not surprising to textual historians, are troublingly at odds with the orthodox Muslim belief that the Koran as it has reached us today is quite simply the perfect, timeless, and unchanging Word of God.

If you follow the historical method regarding the Gospel of John, are you prepared to follow it regarding the Qur'an or do you simply utilize special pleading - different criteria for you and different for the others? That might be OK, but is that the way to convince others of the accuracy of your faith?

As for us: the Bible is the road map to faith and to Heaven but Faith™ comes from accepting Jesus as your personal Savior. The presence of Jesus is the thing. Without Him everything you do, no matter how laudable from the secular viewpoint - is evil (Psalms 53:1) and leads to eternal punishment (John 3:18). Yes, the Gospel of John.


Yours in Christ,

Elmer

[MustBeOnDrugs]

Re: May Allah have mercy on us all

Oh, dear!


We are very well aware of the attempts to prove scientific foreknowledge in the Qur'an: the alleged embryological data, etc. We are equally aware of textual variations within some of the oldest manuscripts of the Qur'an that your scholars try to avoid


Yours in Christ,

Elmer

I must disagree there. There is no variation on the Quran, the Quran has always been the same in regards to its meaning.

As you must already know, Arabic does not have an alphabet, it has an abjad, which means only consonants are written and not the wowels. Also, Arabic has never been a uniform
Language and it has had several different dialects.

With the conquest of Persia and India the Islamic empire expanded greatly, and under the reign of Caliph Uthma , may god be pleased with him, the Muslims of arabia found Muslims from somewhere else reciting the Quran differently, and this caused problems and infighting.

This was due because as the short wovels arent written, each Muslim would read as it is read on his local Arabic dialect, causing confusion.

The Caliph Uthman solved the problem by creating full punctuation forall the wovels ect, so the Quran would always be recited the same one, in the variant of Arabic as spoken by Muhammad salalahu alaihi wa salam, the Makkah dialect.

This resulted in the Uthmani script, with full vowels and full punctuation to avoid misunderstandings. Once this was approved, the Caliph order to burn all the previous Quran written in the old script without vowels or symbols. No scholars avoid this, it is a very known fact to any scholar.

Please note this only affected the way the Quran was recited and pronounced, but not the meaning. The Quran has always had the same meaning, if you have proof against this please let me know and ill look into it.

[Didymus Much]

Re: May Allah have mercy on us all

...The Quran has always had the same meaning, if you have proof against this please let me know and ill look into it.

He just did gave you the proof, and all your hand-waving and flufferoomizations* won't change anyone's mind.


*a word coined long ago to denote what follows any "well, ackshually..." or attempted redefinitions of the word "is".

[BrotherLarry]

Re: May Alan have mercy on us all

I tried to read the Corran once in Arabicish using a mirror so it might look more American but backwards or forwards it just didn’t bless me like the King James does when I study its elegant message to the world.

I am happy to serve a God that doesn’t need a pedophile false prophet like your moosehammock (May piss fall on him). We can praise God in American like Jesus did in Israel. We can be proud of Jesus who never looked improperly on children but urged them to come to sit on His Holy Lap while He told them the Good News that He was going to die for them. How joyful this must have made them!

Give me a simple faith like Christianity: safe for any age.

[Basilissa]

Re: May Allah have mercy on us all

The Quran has always had the same meaning, if you have proof against this please let me know and ill look into it.

He just did gave you the proof,

Didymus, I realize that as an atheist you are not a very smart cookie yourself, so let me explain this to you: Muslims are even dumber than atheists, so this one has no understanding what a "hyperlink" is.

I'm a good Christian lady who loves being helpful, so I will provide direct quotes from Brother Elmer's link. I even highlighted the most explosive ( get it? Muslim, explosives ) fragments:

In some pious Muslim circles it is held that worn-out or damaged copies of the Koran must be removed from circulation; hence the idea of a grave, which both preserves the sanctity of the texts being laid to rest and ensures that only complete and unblemished editions of the scripture will be read. Some of the parchment pages in the Yemeni hoard seemed to date back to the seventh and eighth centuries A.D., or Islam's first two centuries—they were fragments, in other words, of perhaps the oldest Korans in existence. What's more, some of these fragments revealed small but intriguing aberrations from the standard Koranic text. Such aberrations, though not surprising to textual historians, are troublingly at odds with the orthodox Muslim belief that the Koran as it has reached us today is quite simply the perfect, timeless, and unchanging Word of God...
Puin, who had been sent by the German government to organize and oversee the restoration project, recognized the antiquity of some of the parchment fragments, and his preliminary inspection also revealed unconventional verse orderings, minor textual variations, and rare styles of orthography and artistic embellishment. Enticing, too, were the sheets of the scripture written in the rare and early Hijazi Arabic script: pieces of the earliest Korans known to exist, they were also palimpsests—versions very clearly written over even earlier, washed-off versions. What the Yemeni Korans seemed to suggest, Puin began to feel, was an evolving text rather than simply the Word of God as revealed in its entirety to the Prophet Muhammad in the seventh century A.D...
These manuscripts say that the early history of the Koranic text is much more of an open question than many have suspected: the text was less stable, and therefore had less authority, than has always been claimed."

[MitzaLizalor]

Re: May Allah have mercy on us all

I must disagree there. There is no variation on the Quran, the Quran has always been the same in regards to its meaning. As you must already know, Arabic does not have an alphabet, it has an abjad, which means

only consonants are written and not the wowels

. Also, Arabic has never been a uniform Language and it has had several different

dialects

. With the conquest of Persia and India the Islamic empire expanded greatly, and under the reign of Caliph Uthma , may god be pleased with him, the Muslims of arabia found Muslims from somewhere else

reciting the Quran differently

, and this caused problems and infighting. This was due because as the short wovels arent written, each Muslim would read as it is read on his local Arabic dialect, causing confusion. The Caliph Uthman solved the

problem

by creating full punctuation forall the wovels ect, so the Quran would always be recited the same one, in the variant of Arabic as spoken by Muhammad salalahu alaihi wa salam, the Makkah dialect. This resulted in the Uthmani script, with full vowels and full punctuation to avoid misunderstandings. Once this was approved, the Caliph order to burn all the previous Quran written in the old script without vowels or symbols. No scholars avoid this, it is a very known fact to any scholar. Please note this only affected the way the Quran was recited and pronounced, but not the meaning. The Quran has always had the same meaning, if you have proof against this please let me know and ill look into it.

Just a couple of points which I've placed on the left in your quote.

Firstly, anticipating this objection, you will notice that my references do not include diacritics or vowel signs so you can see what was originally intended without the more recent pronunciation guide. In Greek, the language chosen for early translation by scholars familiar with the meaning of their text, later conventions were either absent or only just coming into vogue so it's best to present the text in as straightforward a manner as possible.

Now this is a wonderful demonstration of God's consideration for our understanding. The wretched Israelites kept chasing idols, nit-picking on one another in an effort to obligate God, burning incense the wrong way, rejecting prophets, you name it there in The Bible they are condemned for doing it. Some. Israelites continued to respect God, the prophets themselves for example, but generally their lubricious antics were so revolting to God that He stripped them of Chosen People status and transferred that privilege, blasting the temple they'd mocked across centuries.

How do you think those chosen for triumph should be distinguished? Starvation? Ruin? Schism?