[Levi Jones]

Re: Translation please

It doesn't particularly matter who liked who in my opinion. If we MUST have works for salvation, then how do you explain the thief on the cross? The one who, "Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise." (Luke 23:43)? Surely this criminal who had lived his life in a manner so as to be crucified had not done "enough" good works!

Was salvation for the thief that day or was it at the end of days? I believe you managed to duck that one.

As far as Luke 23:42 goes, all I can say is Amen. Your golden mansion could be next door to Jeff Dahmer, Hitler or Bundy if they repented at the end of their life!

Isn't that awesome? Don't you want that?

Anyways, that leaves us only one option, that the thief was saved through faith as he had no chance to do large amounts of good deeds while on the cross.

So salvation is a matter of luck. Gotcha. If you look at a woman with lust in your heart before getting hit by a bus, you would be damned by your own metric.

On the other hand, anyone who screamed out LORD LORD before their death would be saved.

How is that working out for you?

[iThink]

Re: Translation please

Yes, that is perfectly accurate, and to be honest I would love it. I do not wish to see ANYBODY condemned to Hell. It brings me joy everytime that I see anyone has accepted Christ. It does not matter if they picked on me, nothing that can be done on this earth can compare to the suffering that is endured in Hell.

How do you figure that? Salvation is not based on the last act that you did on this earth. Nobody said that. Because the thief made a decision of faith he was saved. I have been redeemed by Christ, that does not mean that I must live perfectly from here on out to retain that salvation. Salvation cannot be accidentally lost because you sinned. Christ covers your sins and makes you acceptable in the eyes of God because we as humans are wretched in and of ourselves. Christ substitutes for us so that we need not be held to the standard of perfection any longer.

"Was salvation for the thief or was it at the end of days?" I'm sorry but I don't know what you are getting at there. Could you explain?

[Cranky Old Man]

Re: Translation please

I do not wish to see ANYBODY condemned to Hell.

So you are disagreeing with God?

Salvation cannot be accidentally lost because you sinned.

Wrong, a requirement for being saved is that you stop sinning! Jesus' words to the adulterous woman He had forgiven in John 8:11 are: "go, and sin no more." God only forgives those who stop sinning!

[iThink]

Re: Translation please

No, I'm not disagreeing with God. I am saying subjectively that I personally do not wish people to go to Hell. However the fact remains that they will and God will even send some to Hell according to His plan.

Your point is a valid one. But you picked a terrible verse to defend it. I could defend that point better than that and I don't even believe it.
If we want this debate to go there we can. But later, we cannot deal with both salvation by works or faith AND perseverance of the saints at the same time.

Hold that thought though and we can come back to it later, one issue at a time. After all, there is one of me and lots of you I'm not THAT good at multi-tasking.

[Cranky Old Man]

Re: Translation please

No, I'm not disagreeing with God. I am saying subjectively that I personally do not wish people to go to Hell.

God wants people to go to Hell, you don't want people to go to Hell. Sure sounds like you are disagreeing with God to me.

• Mark 16:16 "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned."
• Revelation 21:8 "But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death."
• John 15:6 "If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned."

[True Disciple]

Re: Howdy partners

I am glad to see that Pastor Levi has been so kind as to explain to you what the Bible exactly teaches on faith, works, Salvation and the Law. I have only a few points I still want to make.

A much more literal (i remember you focusing on literal earlier) interpretation of the verse would go like this, "Whosoever is born of God doth not sin AS A LIFESTYLE; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin AS A LIFESTYLE, because he is born of God"

No, it wouldn't go like that. The present tense would not change the specific act of sinning into the broader act of a sinful lifestyle. It just would read: "Whosoever is born of God commits no sin."

Regardless, we know that any text that deviates from the KJV, Greek or not, is wrong. I believe that Rev. Rodimer kindly explained that to you?

You see, what James is talking about here is the false belief that one can have faith without showing works. Some people will say, "Oh I believe in God, so I am saved." but their life will not change. James is saying that the separation of faith in Christ and good works for Christ are inseparable. When one has faith and is filled with the Holy Spirit, it is *inevitable* that they will change.

Yes, so if anyone has faith, you will notice a change, wouldn't you? As I argued before, that change is a sudden inability to sin (1 John 3:9).

First, transgressing the Law is the definition of "sin:"

1 John 3:4-12:
Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

So, one who is filled with the Holy Spirit will keep the entire Law afterwards (again, I refer to James 2:10). Keeping the entire Law, of course, includes Deuteronomy 13:12-16, and transgressing this part by rejecting it is a sin.

Seeing that you apparently don't keep that part, you are guilty of transgressing the entire Law. Therefore, using 1 John 3:9, we can say that you clearly aren't born of God, as you still transgress the Law.

Which brings up an interesting point...if salvation is by works, then how are we to know when we are saved? At what point in our life does the Holy Spirit enter us? When we reach a "critical mass" of good deeds?

I think your problem is that you present a false dichotomy here: according to you, it either has to be 100% Faith or 100% Works. I have tried to show you that these things work together. Again:

Fact 1: Only if you believe in Jesus you will achieve Salvation (Ephesians 2:8-9)
Fact 2: Belief in Jesus always results in good works (James 2:17-18)
Fact 3: Belief in Jesus results in an absence of sin (1 John 3:9)
Fact 4: Sin is transgression of the Law (1 John 3:4)
Conclusion: If anyone is Saved(tm), he will both believe in Jesus and keep the Old Testament Law. That's why we must keep the Law.

Okay, no there is still my main question, and I still haven't spotted an answer: Which parts of the Bible do you believe? And why those parts, and not other parts? I'm very curious about that.

[TrueWifeBeater]

Re: Translation please

As far as Luke 23:42 goes, all I can say is Amen. Your golden mansion could be next door to Jeff Dahmer, Hitler or Bundy if they repented at the end of their life!

What would be so bad about having a mansion next to Hitler? God approves of genocide

[James Hutchins]

Re: Translation please

What would be so bad about having a mansion next to Hitler? God approves of genocide

Well, being that Hitler is dead, I suppose it would not be so bad. Certainly better than having you for a neighbor.

[iThink]

Re: Translation please

Well it has been good times here...but this thread has taken a turn for the worse it would seem :/

However, if anyone would like to continue this discussion or start another one on any subject. Please email me.

My email is <demonic link deleted>
Shoot me a message and i will try to respond in fairly short order.

As I have mentioned before, I understand your reasons for this web site, and I am sorry. I am certain that there have been those of a Christian persuasion who have treated you poorly or shown an incompetent understanding of their Savior. This probably made you bitter or angry and thus you started this website.

The truth is we can argue back and forth all day long, and it is very likely that neither of us will sway the other. I merely wish to show you that there are Christians who do not believe simply because their parents told them to. Contrary to popular belief, we are not all stupid, bigoted, judgmental hypocrites. And yet this is the view that you have chosen to spread out of, as I can only assume, spite. Even if I were to give you the most logical, elegant, well thought out, and flawless defense of my Lord chances are that you would simply laugh it off.

The only thing of true value that I can hope to share with you is the smallest inkling of the love of My Savior. I have tried (and hopefully succeeded) in staying patient, calm, and kind throughout this whole discussions. If I have any luck then I have succeeded in giving one of you some small insight into how a believer views Christ and His Word.

As Paul says in Philippians 1, "Yes, and I will continue to rejoice, 19 for I know that through your prayers and God’s provision of the Spirit of Jesus Christ what has happened to me will turn out for my deliverance.[d] 20 I eagerly expect and hope that I will in no way be ashamed, but will have sufficient courage so that now as always Christ will be exalted in my body, whether by life or by death. 21 For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain. 22 If I am to go on living in the body, this will mean fruitful labor for me. Yet what shall I choose? I do not know! 23 I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far; 24 but it is more necessary for you that I remain in the body. 25 Convinced of this, I know that I will remain, and I will continue with all of you for your progress and joy in the faith, 26 so that through my being with you again your boasting in Christ Jesus will abound on account of me."

The reason that I exist on this earth is simply this, to bring the Love of God to every single person that I possibly can. With the infinite joy of knowing that I will spend eternity with the one who died for me in my soul, I have plenty to share. If at any point during these last 7 pages any of you smiled, or had a thought about what I was saying that peaked your curiosity. Then I may call this a success.

Hopefully I have been able to show you in some small way the fallacy of the belief that Christians are sheep who do what their pastor says, because their pastor says. Yes, those people exist, but that does not mean that you should prey on them as you do.

The Love of Christ goes with you, whether you know it or not.

[Levi Jones]

Re: Translation please

2) If you are basing your observation that I obviously don't off of Mark 16...then I would consider taking a good look at the history of those verses. To be perfectly honest they don't belong in the Bible at all. The earliest and most reliable manuscripts of Matthew do not include these verses at all. Why they are still in is beyond me. You will also notice the very clunky and awkward transition between verses 8 and 9 and it is highly likely that Mark did not write them at all. There are several Greek words that exist nowhere else in the Gospel of Mark that he suddenly begins to use.

Are you claiming that Matthew was written before Mark? Any biblical scholar worth his salt knows Mark was written first. Don't take my word for it. Look it up yourself.

Once you start getting into interpolations, you have opened a whole new can of worms.

Did you know the story of Jesus sparing the woman from stoning in John 8 doesn't appear in any manuscripts until around the 10th century?

Once you get into the nuts and bolts of truly understanding the Bible, you will come away changed forever or you will have built up so many walls of cognitive dissonance, you will still never be the same.

I don't recommend it. If you are happy where you are now, don't search for the truth. It can only lead you to question things.

3) Again, yes, I am weak. That is a given. I am not called to perfection, only to give it my best shot.

Jesus tells us to be perfect.

Matthew 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Paul says no one can be.

Romans 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

[GOD=life]

Re: Translation please

Well it has been good times here...but this thread has taken a turn for the worse it would seem :/

Uhm, sorry, but you seem to be running away from the Truth rather than embracing it. Instead of arguing your point intelligently, you are just insulting the Pastor's integrity.

Even if I were to give you the most logical, elegant, well thought out, and flawless defense of my Lord chances are that you would simply laugh it off.

If what you say contradicts the Bible, then we will not consider what you say to be representative of Christianity, no. There's nothing more logical than that. Christians follow the Bible.

Hopefully I have been able to show you in some small way the fallacy of the belief that Christians are sheep who do what their pastor says, because their pastor says

That's just plain offensive. Our Pastor has demonstrated personally that EVERYTHING that is claimed is substantiated by Scripture. We can check out everything for ourselves. Our Pastor doesn't say "believe what I say, don't look it up". IN FACT, every single True Christian is encouraged, even required, to read the ENTIRE KJV 1611 Bible. So if you're insinuating that our Pastors try to keep information from us, that's just really ignorant and malicious on your part.

The fact that Pastor Levi has been able to remain so calm and patient with a stubborn person like you is proof in itself that the Lord has blessed our Pastor with wisdom that far exceeds what you can comprehend at your young age.

I'm not sure a "Christian" of your type has the integrity to apologize to the Pastor and this congregation, but it would certainly reflect well on your character.

Signed,

a Christian who is THANKFUL to Jesus Christ and our Pastors

[iThink]

Re: Translation please

For the record that specific statement you quoted was not aimed at you (and we all know why )

And if i offended anyone. I am sorry.

[Levi Jones]

Re: Translation please

For the record that specific statement you quoted was not aimed at you (and we all know why )

And if i offended anyone. I am sorry.

I knew you would be back. Just behave and I will lift the rest of your posting restriction and we can talk Bible.

[GOD=life]

Re: Translation please

And if i offended anyone. I am sorry.

Well, I doubt that you intended to offend people, it's more likely you just don't know what this church is about.

It's is really a key point I'd like to stress. You're absolutely right that in many, maybe most, churches, the pastors do indeed preselect the passages that they feel best fits the narrative they're trying to push. Most members will only read those quotes and nothing more. They probably won't even open a Bible. They'll go to a sermon on Sunday, accept whatever is said, and then go back to their secular activities on Monday.

It's completely different here at LBC. Everyone, whether member or not, is continuously and repeatedly encouraged to read the entire KJV 1611 Bible. You may have heard people here say "open the KJV 1611 Bible, start at the beginning and don't stop until you reach the end". That's the ONLY way we can make up our own minds about what's being communicated in the Bible. No snippets and no cherry-picking. Instead, we have full context and full disclosure.

As a Christian, I find the openness and intellectual honesty very refreshing.

[iThink]

Re: Translation please

I knew you would be back. Just behave and I will lift the rest of your posting restriction and we can talk Bible.

as tempting as that is, I will have to ask any further discussion be through email. I feel as though it would be much more beneficial. It got deleted last time...but its the email that my account is linked to.