[Wide-Open]

Re: What the heak is wrong with you people?

I don't understand?

Are you an old Boeing?



I'm just asking.

[Pastor Al E Pistle]

Re: What the heak is wrong with you people?

Yes, I can see that! I don't have a problem with controversy per se; I do think some license is being taken here though.

Yes. Obviously the world is no longer flat. And it's clear that When GOD created the Heavens and the Earth, time did not yet exist. So we understand that the Bible was written for humans, by humans at GOD's direction or, at least under His observation. It is Divinely inspired. History and events written down by the observers and the reasons for the events as explained by GOD. God probably didn't say "Write this down so you'll remember it". He taught by example and, naturally, people wrote it down. One tends to remember a plague of frogs or the rivers turning to blood. GOD's examples are memorable and not for the faint of heart. Those who taught falsely were smited in an instant. Only at the time of the KJV1611 did GOD actually intervene to make the Bible His true and Correct word.

However, there is a caveat. By definition, one must either believe the Bible in it's entirety, or none of it. We cannot pick and choose, or arbitrarily decide that parts need to be 'interpreted' while others are literal. The Bible is not like the Hitchiker's guide to the Galaxy. It is all or nothing. But it is what we have. If it is all, then it must be what GOD gave us, for there is no logical alternative. If it is nothing, then belief in God, or Jesus, is simply superstition and we are all dust mites.

So we must decide where to take our stand. These times, more than ever look like the End Times to me, and I actually see Revelations happening. If the world were at peace; if everyone got along and were not competing with one another to see who can poison the lands and oceans first; if we were not racing headlong to see who can cut down the last palm tree on Easter Island, and I trust the reference is not beyond you...or the results of that action...then maybe I would simply assume that GOD loves everyone and we will all meet in Heaven. But that's not what I see and that's not what GOD said.

The combination of overpopulation, a purely catholic notion, and the hate of the remaining tribes of Israel for one another will surely lead to Armageddon. Soon. All of those countries have nuclear capabilities, or are aligned with others which do.

It is simply impossible to discuss matters like this with the teenage trolls which come here. I am a Ph.D. and I have studied many disciplines of science as well as Theology. I am neither ignorant nor deluded. None of us are. But our methods are geared to our audience and our audience, much to my dismay, is severely dumbed-down.

I don't know what that is; I might have to do a google search.

He was having a joke with you. I am engaging you in all seriousness.

Maybe I have nothing new or original to present here; you can judge.

We shall not judge you for your presentation, nor for your ideas. We will judge you as we are instructed; with righteous judgment. John 7:24.

My first issue is with the literal word being the sole and exclusive claim on truth. You say the KJV1611 is indeed written by God. I tried in an earlier post to point out that this claim in itself is indefensible on grounds of logic alone. Faith must be involved that this is the case; some appeal to the heart or soul rather than the intellect. I personally don’t see a problem with this state of affairs; but then I am not in the business of making extraordinary claims!

Suppose I countered with the argument that morphologically, everyone is unique and irreplaceable; that to give each one a personalized guidebook would not be sensible, and that the soul....the component of the human which GOD will save, does not control the individual. It is merely along for the ride. The Holy Spirit within each of us is in constant conflict with the agents of evil. That fight can clearly be seen in mood swings, in inappropriate behavior, in nonsensical arguments, etc. That the Bible contains all known Truths but not necessarily ALL Truths. For we are but mortal and not gods ourselves. The Lord gives us what we can understand.

Faith that you have a soul does not constitute Salvation. In fact, no one will go to Heaven at all until Jesus returns. Until then, every living thing has been or will be returned to the dust from whence it came. Each person has free will and free faith. JESUS said He would return, but only to kill every remaining unbeliever. He does not say what he will do if we kill ourselves off in the meantime.

This argument is Theological, however. I cannot make it to every person I encounter. Faith is the cornerstone of religion, but a 'personal' relationship with Jesus or an all-loving god is a marketing ploy in most FALSE CHRISTIAN churches. Jesus is not an ATM machine or a servant to anyone's individual wishes. People cannot seem to understand that.

Second, to claim any text as the word of God means that (a) interpretation will be necessary. I know how strongly you oppose this, but given the obvious imprecisions inherent with word meaning I think it is the most likely outcome. And (b) that such a text is not fully comprehensive or exhaustive, so naturally some human behavior will neither conform to nor fall foul of the word; a ‘gray’ area. Again, I don’t have a problem with (b), but I suspect you guys do.

You are absolutely correct in my opinion, but I am not perfect and do not speak for my church here. In fact. I am in conflict with most of the other Pastors. I can tell you what our church doctrine is, and why. Because 'clean' conversations involving religion or politics are not really possible. So we direct people to the Bible, send them on their way and grab another, because the final decision to try is up to them. None will know the final judgment until The Day and even my atheist academic colleagues invariably understand and articulate that the Tribulation is upon us this generation. No matter what secular term they use to describe it, no one denies that it is happening. So we cannot waste time trying to discuss whether there is more to GOD than we know. Of course there is. But, again, we aren't able to understand it, so it is not given to us. What IS given to us is everything we NEED.

I trust that you understand, intellectually, why this conversation is not appropriate for the public, and why we choose to present our case in the manner we do. Reading the original title of the thread will give you that. Whether we have remained one of the top five Internet search results for ten years because people believe we are a parody of Christianity or a divine revelation does not concern us. The fact remains that we have sent more people running for a Bible than any other website in History.

Officially, these are our beliefs (from memory...any errors are mine). We did not copyright them and the American Presbyterians have adopted a variation. That's fine with us.

Our statement of belief

We believe the complete KJV1611(Authorized) Bible is the written word of God, inspired by the Holy Spirit and without error in the original manuscripts. We accept that all editions are subject to mechanical errors, but not errors of truth. The Bible is the revelation of God’s truth and is infallible and authoritative in all matters of faith and practice.

We do not believe that lay persons, without a full education and complete knowledge of the Bible and the history surrounding it as well as contemporary documents and historical perspective can develop a full, true, complete and relevant understanding of True Christianity™.

We believe in the Holy Trinity. There is one God, who exists eternally in three persons: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

We believe that all are sinners and totally unable to save themselves from God’s displeasure, except by His mercy.

We believe that salvation is by God alone as He sovereignly chooses those He will save. We believe His choice is based on His grace or good works if called by God for His tasks, as God chooses, not on any human individual merit, or foreseen faith.

We believe that Jesus Christ is the eternal Son of God, who through His perfect life and sacrificial death atoned for the sins of all of God's Chosen men who will trust in Him, alone and unto death, for salvation.

We believe that God is gracious and faithful to His people not simply as individuals but as families in successive generations according to His Covenant promises and unforgiving to the unfaithful.

We believe that the Holy Spirit dwells in God’s people and gives them the strength and wisdom to trust Christ and follow Him. We distinguish 'Holy Spirit' from 'soul'.

We believe that Jesus will return, bodily and visibly, to judge all mankind and to receive His warriors to Himself.

We believe that all aspects of our lives are to be lived to the glory of God under the Lordship of Jesus Christ.

[joe707]

Re: Joe707's Questions

Pastor, you have shown yourself to be more welcoming than I would previously have predicted. And I wouldn’t disagree much with your insight that there is a lot spiritually and functionally wrong with the world. Thank you for outlining the LBC core beliefs in that fashion, because it clears a few things up. Key to all of this is the admittance that church members ‘believe’. This is quite a different statement to the claim (much repeated elsewhere) to know and uphold the word of God quite exclusively. You see, once we know that you have chosen to adhere to a set of rules we are able to go into depth on many issues, as you and I are beginning to do here.

But I thought LBC doctrine goes far beyond this, doesn’t it? Or at least I have seen LBC pastors use faulty reasoning to endorse a peculiar brand of licentiousness and antagonism. I am sure the baiting of newcomers is a strategic and well-thought out approach, deployed here to obvious effect. I have seen this in operation. By all means court controversy and rebuke, but do not use ultimate truth as the license. Because once you make such a claim, you will run into all manner of errors and inconsistencies that blight the LOC which I have highlighted.

This is really the nuts and bolts of what I am getting at, although I find it interesting to note that many who seemed eager to join in earlier in the thread have since mysteriously fallen by the wayside. Where are your fellow ‘Senior Theologians’ and serious men of God? You know, the ones who have been granted – or perhaps granted themselves – all those fancy titles, complete with trademarks? Can their absence be explained by the fact that what I have brought up is less palatable to them than viciously attacking a vulnerable 18 year old girl who wishes to explore faith?

[Ezekiel Bathfire]

Re: Joe707's Questions

[...]Where are your fellow ‘Senior Theologians’ and serious men of God? You know, the ones who have been granted – or perhaps granted themselves – all those fancy titles, complete with trademarks?

I doubt that you understand Landover and how it goes about God’s business. The trademarks and title have their own meaning. I am not commenting because I am listening. Like many more senior members, I retain an open mind and it is good to hear the Pastor’s voice and benefit from his thoughts.

Can their absence be explained by the fact that what I have brought up is less palatable to them than viciously attacking a vulnerable 18 year old girl who wishes to explore faith?

It could be, but it is not. Not all who post here are as they state themselves to be. Your patience in not passing judgement is appreciated.

[Pastor Billy-Reuben]

Re: Joe707's Questions

Where are your fellow ‘Senior Theologians’ and serious men of God? You know, the ones who have been granted – or perhaps granted themselves – all those fancy titles, complete with trademarks? Can their absence be explained by the fact that what I have brought up is less palatable to them than viciously attacking a vulnerable 18 year old girl who wishes to explore faith?

I'm here, and I've been patiently waiting for your response to this.

Pastor Billy-Reuben

[Brother Temperance]

Re: Joe707's Questions

What is the worst that can happen?

The worst that can happen is that God can send your soul to suffer unimaginable torments for eternity. That's like the longest time you can think of times a million. I'd say that's pretty bad.

My first issue is with the literal word being the sole and exclusive claim on truth. You say the KJV1611 is indeed written by God. I tried in an earlier post to point out that this claim in itself is indefensible on grounds of logic alone. Faith must be involved that this is the case; some appeal to the heart or soul rather than the intellect. I personally don’t see a problem with this state of affairs; but then I am not in the business of making extraordinary claims!

Friend, God Himself is indefensible on grounds of logic alone. You just need to accept Him based on faith, or else be condemned to Hell for eternity.

[joe707]

Re: What the heak is wrong with you people?

Apologies if I overlooked these issues. I thought I had addressed them in more general terms, but ok, it seems a more specific treatment is warranted.

If you have the Bible and you trust it to be God's Word, then you have objective truth right there in front of you in black and white. We believe all of the Bible, even the parts that make us uncomfortable.

Then this is a conditional. ‘If..... then.....’ I am happy to accept conditionals as the basis for discussion. Your church chooses to trust in a specific version of a text as your source of knowledge. I wish you and your Pastors were more upfront and honest about this fact, rather than claiming exclusive rights on Gods word; the ultimate truth. And all the other stuff that goes with it, which then becomes distorted and manipulated for less than ‘holy’ (for wont of a better word) pursuits.

On the other end of the spectrum, you have scientists who use the scientific method on empirical data in an attempt to learn the truth. They believe what the evidence points to, even if it makes them uncomfortable.

Agreed, in theory. (Although surprisingly much scientific method is conducted via ‘non-rational’ methods, and much cherry-picking of empirical data is implicit in each and every scientific paradigm. As possibly you guys know and use to your best advantage, although I have yet to visit your creation science forum).

In the middle, you have liberal Christians who believe the parts of the Bible that say what they want to hear, disbelieving the rest, and they believe the findings of science that say what they want to hear, disbelieving the rest.

I am not hugely knowledgeable of ‘liberals’, as opposed to ‘fundamentalists’ as you might define them, but hey, I can happily take that on board, since you know far better than I what goes on in the Christian faith. It sounds entirely reasonable to me. Because selective uptake is something we all do. Even the godly amongst us (no doubt we will come to this very important matter soon!).

Liberal Christians are basically living in a fantasy world, believing whatever they want to believe, without a care as to whether what they believe is actually true.

Again, I won’t comment on these matters, as my views are personal and limited. But I can see the sentiment behind what you are saying. Both you and Pastor Pistle clearly feel a deep sense of sadness for the state of degeneration that you witness, and an unwillingness to sit by the sidelines without taking action. And I honestly understand that.

Even if they did care, they have no tools for determining what is true or false.

Well I suspect that they do, but those tools, in the form of subjective statements about things, clearly can not be subjected to scientific verification, or (perhaps more importantly) verification through the word of the Bible. But no matter, because all of these are incomplete and inconsistent. (And like any tool, they do a job, sometimes well, sometimes not so well.)

Fundamentalists have an inerrant text, and scientists have empirical methods, but liberal Christians have nothing.

I think you are wrong about the first claim, but maybe I don't know what is meant by ‘inerrant’.

Therefore, the only objective forms of belief are science and fundamentalism, and since we all know that scientists are all working for the Devil, that leaves fundamentalism as the only viable option.

Scientists working for the Devil? Hmmm. But as per your point above – I don’t think fundamentalists have an inerrant text, if by that you mean 1) it does not need interpretation, and 2) that it is total, i.e. complete in knowledge. Shall we agree that naturally we both are now referring to the KJV1611 POV? Because I couldn't help but notice a few bunches of other fundamentalists both here and across the waters who also claim the divinity of an inerrant text

Btw, I wouldn't presume in any way to be as knowledgeable as you of the KJV1611, I am new to it.

[joe707]

Re: Joe707's Questions

The worst that can happen is that God can send your soul to suffer unimaginable torments for eternity. That's like the longest time you can think of times a million. I'd say that's pretty bad.

Yes, I would too. In fact, if you are ever lucky or unlucky enough to perceive eternity, then you might know that all accumulated ideas of numbers, and concepts of time become nonsense. I hope you come to it in favorable circumstances.

Friend, God Himself is indefensible on grounds of logic alone.

Quite.

You just need to accept Him based on faith, or else be condemned to Hell for eternity.

More needed. Specifically to do with faith. Your faith.

Thanks.

[Pastor Al E Pistle]

Re: Joe707's Questions

More needed. Specifically to do with faith. Your faith.
Thanks.

And that, in the final analysis, is the crux of the debate. Is our Bible, one of dozens, the ONE inerrant one? I don't know that, Joe. Does GOD Himself deceive people so they will go to HELL? Yes.

1 Kings 22:23
Now, therefore, behold, the Lord hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of these thy prophets, and the Lord hath spoken evil concerning thee.

2 Chronicles 18:22
Now therefore, behold, the Lord hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of these thy prophets.
Jeremiah 4:10
Ah, Lord GOD! surely thou hast greatly deceived this people.
Jeremiah 20:7
O Lord, thou hast deceived me, and I was deceived.
Ezekiel 14:9
And if a prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the Lord have deceived that prophet.
2 Thessalonians 2:11
For this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie.

Are we they? We certainly don't believe so. Theologians have identified gross errors of conduct and intentional falsifications in the Bible and in organized religion for many hundreds of years. I needn't point fingers, but the catholics milked religion for all they could, and are still doing it. The Jews don't believe JESUS was their anointed leader, so now they are standing back-to-back in a desert with wolves at all the doors.

But we can trace our heritage as a church inside the walls of King James of England whose scribes rendered what we believe was the final and divinely corrected version of the Bible. We certainly don't believe Joseph Smith's account of the golden tablets, nor does anyone doubt his pedophelia, or that of Mohammed (who claimed his visions were from SATAN...that observation is obviously true).

What can I tell you Joe? When you are shooting for eternity and it's an open Book test, you better be able to pass and you better have confidence that you have the right book. So we aren't wishy-washy. If someone comes in here for the purpose of making an idiot of themselves, we are unabashed in helping them. If someone wants to discuss our beliefs intelligently, we can do that too. All of our Pastors can, and will.

But since PBR and I engaged you first, we get the courtesy of responding to you. That's why there are not myriad responses; you would be overwhelmed or something would get lost in translation.

When I have to return to Landover at the end of the week, I shall hand you off to someone who will be happy to continue a one-on-one. Naturally it is always best if the original Pastor carries the discussion to it's conclusion, but it isn't really necessary. The person who happens to be on duty at the time I leave will be handed the task for better or worse.

He won't sound like me and might well be less tolerant of opposing viewpoints. Everyone is different after all. But he will understand the Bible and our beliefs...in fact, we have several Sisters who could easily be handling calls instead of a Pastor. If that is the case, SHE will continue for me.

As for your request about our beliefs, that was answered earlier. I am an elderly gentleman (if you will give me the courtesy of that title) and I am less argumentative in my dotage than many years ago. So I am actually presenting responses as a philosopher might...not those really appropriate for a Pastor of our church. But I am a Senior Pastor and I allow myself the latitude. Do not take that as wavering in my faith. I am simply more willing to accommodate your questions because you phrase them eruditely and politely...and I sometimes let my thoughts wander a bit.

[Pastor Billy-Reuben]

Re: What the heak is wrong with you people?

to claim any text as the word of God means that (a) interpretation will be necessary. I know how strongly you oppose this, but given the obvious imprecisions inherent with word meaning I think it is the most likely outcome. And (b) that such a text is not fully comprehensive or exhaustive, so naturally some human behavior will neither conform to nor fall foul of the word; a ‘gray’ area.

I don't see how those conclusions follow from an assertion that a book is the Word of God. If a book had been written by a being that deserves to be referred to as God, then I would expect that book to be perfect, devoid of any problems, especially the types of problems you mentioned.

(a) Writers strive for clarity. If a book had been written by an Almighty God, then we would rightly expect that book to be the most unambiguous, clearly presented, and easy to understand book ever written, by far. Books written by men are unclear and ambiguous.

(b) An Omniscient God knows everything. If book that tells people how they should live their lives had been written by an Omniscient God, then we would rightly expect that book to cover any circumstance and to not leave any gray area. Books written by men miss unforeseen circumstances and leave gray areas.

Pastor Billy-Reuben

[joe707]

Re: Joe707's Questions

And that, in the final analysis, is the crux of the debate. Is our Bible, one of dozens, the ONE inerrant one? I don't know that, Joe. Does GOD Himself deceive people so they will go to HELL? Yes.

1 Kings 22:23
Now, therefore, behold, the Lord hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of these thy prophets, and the Lord hath spoken evil concerning thee.

2 Chronicles 18:22
Now therefore, behold, the Lord hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of these thy prophets.
Jeremiah 4:10
Ah, Lord GOD! surely thou hast greatly deceived this people.
Jeremiah 20:7
O Lord, thou hast deceived me, and I was deceived.
Ezekiel 14:9
And if a prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the Lord have deceived that prophet.
2 Thessalonians 2:11
For this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie.

To be sure, deception – either intentional or unseen – is something against which we all should be extremely vigilant.

Are we they? We certainly don't believe so. Theologians have identified gross errors of conduct and intentional falsifications in the Bible and in organized religion for many hundreds of years. I needn't point fingers, but the catholics milked religion for all they could, and are still doing it. The Jews don't believe JESUS was their anointed leader, so now they are standing back-to-back in a desert with wolves at all the doors.

But we can trace our heritage as a church inside the walls of King James of England whose scribes rendered what we believe was the final and divinely corrected version of the Bible. We certainly don't believe Joseph Smith's account of the golden tablets, nor does anyone doubt his pedophelia, or that of Mohammed (who claimed his visions were from SATAN...that observation is obviously true).

What can I tell you Joe? When you are shooting for eternity and it's an open Book test, you better be able to pass and you better have confidence that you have the right book. So we aren't wishy-washy. If someone comes in here for the purpose of making an idiot of themselves, we are unabashed in helping them. If someone wants to discuss our beliefs intelligently, we can do that too. All of our Pastors can, and will.

As I can see and appreciate has happened in places. But you know, eternity is rather a big deal. How can it exist only as some promise of a future event? Does it not then cease to be eternal; but become something far lesser entirely, since it denies all that took place in time before it?

But since PBR and I engaged you first, we get the courtesy of responding to you. That's why there are not myriad responses; you would be overwhelmed or something would get lost in translation.

I am willing to be overwhelmed, if need be.

When I have to return to Landover at the end of the week, I shall hand you off to someone who will be happy to continue a one-on-one. Naturally it is always best if the original Pastor carries the discussion to it's conclusion, but it isn't really necessary. The person who happens to be on duty at the time I leave will be handed the task for better or worse.

He won't sound like me and might well be less tolerant of opposing viewpoints. Everyone is different after all. But he will understand the Bible and our beliefs...in fact, we have several Sisters who could easily be handling calls instead of a Pastor. If that is the case, SHE will continue for me.

As for your request about our beliefs, that was answered earlier.

Yes, you did answer that. Thankyou.

I am an elderly gentleman (if you will give me the courtesy of that title) and I am less argumentative in my dotage than many years ago.

A little disingenuous perhaps here Pastor?

So I am actually presenting responses as a philosopher might...not those really appropriate for a Pastor of our church. But I am a Senior Pastor and I allow myself the latitude. Do not take that as wavering in my faith. I am simply more willing to accommodate your questions because you phrase them eruditely and politely...and I sometimes let my thoughts wander a bit.

Your latitude does you credit, wandering thoughts, uncertainty and all. Pastor, in another time and place, I imagine we might have continued these discussions over a beer or two. Stranger things have happened in creation, after all.

[joe707]

Re: What the heak is wrong with you people?

I don't see how those conclusions follow from an assertion that a book is the Word of God. If a book had been written by a being that deserves to be referred to as God, then I would expect that book to be perfect, devoid of any problems, especially the types of problems you mentioned.

Well, me too. I’d want to be pretty scrupulous in determining that there is no room for error. Which is why someone needs to account for the incompleteness and woolly statements littered thoughout the Bible.

(a) Writers strive for clarity. If a book had been written by an Almighty God, then we would rightly expect that book to be the most unambiguous, clearly presented, and easy to understand book ever written, by far. Books written by men are unclear and ambiguous.

Indeed. Could you explain the following passages? As mentioned earlier, my knowledge of the KJV1611 is not by any means scholarly at this point in time.

Proverbs 25:23 The north wind driveth away rain: so doth an angry countenance a backbiting tongue.

Deuteronomy 23:17&18 There shall be no whore of the daughters of Israel, nor a sodomite of the sons of Israel. Thou shalt not bring the hire of a whore, or the price of a dog, into the house of the LORD thy God for any vow: for even both these are abomination unto the LORD thy God.

Deuteronomy 32:42 I will make mine arrows drunk with blood, and my sword shall devour flesh; and that with the blood of the slain and of the captives, from the beginning of revenges upon the enemy.

(b) An Omniscient God knows everything. If book that tells people how they should live their lives had been written by an Omniscient God, then we would rightly expect that book to cover any circumstance and to not leave any gray area. Books written by men miss unforeseen circumstances and leave gray areas.

Agreed. So what TV programs does God demand we watch, and which of those will damn us to hell?

[Pastor Al E Pistle]

Re: Joe707's Questions

To be sure, deception – either intentional or unseen – is something against which we all should be extremely vigilant.

You see then why we must insist that the Unsaved are Unwelcome in our Holy place.

As I can see and appreciate has happened in places. But you know, eternity is rather a big deal. How can it exist only as some promise of a future event? Does it not then cease to be eternal; but become something far lesser entirely, since it denies all that took place in time before it?

Joe, I'll gladly pay you Tuesday for a hamburger today. But all must tithe to the Greater Glory of God in this life and have faith that what the Pastors tell the flock is true. There is a reason JESUS represented Himself as a shepherd. We cannot control or even know the day of JESUS' return but we are fully committed to spreading His literal word far and wide so that a worse fate should not befall those who grasp the TRUE meaning and intent of the Bible. Won't you join us Joe? Take Pascal's wager. You have nothing to lose but eternity.

I am willing to be overwhelmed, if need be.

We don't want to overwhelm you. We simply ask that you see the Light.

Yes, you did answer that. Thankyou.

My pleasure!

A little disingenuous perhaps here Pastor?

Not at all. It is a very old photo. I am easily the eldest Pastor left at Landover.


Your latitude does you credit, wandering thoughts, uncertainty and all. Pastor, in another time and place, I imagine we might have continued these discussions over a beer or two. Stranger things have happened in creation, after all.

Jesus made water from wine. I occasionally enjoy a 'brewski' with friends, but I don't have too many of either out here at Landover West. The polyglot of catholics, witches and hula dancers combine to make my life miserable most of the time.

It is my understanding that Landover Productions is considering our conversation as the basis for one of our radio shows. Drop back on occasion to see when it will air.

a hui hou, Joe.
Pastor Al

[Pastor Billy-Reuben]

Re: What the heak is wrong with you people?

Well, me too. I’d want to be pretty scrupulous in determining that there is no room for error. Which is why someone needs to account for the incompleteness and woolly statements littered thoughout the Bible.

I'm going to have to ask you for some examples, because I've read the Bible dozens of times and have found no incompleteness nor any woolly statements. Granted, some verses, when removed from the surrounding context, may be confusing, but everything makes perfect sense when you read the whole book.

Indeed. Could you explain the following passages? As mentioned earlier, my knowledge of the KJV1611 is not by any means scholarly at this point in time.

I don't want to call your intelligence into question, but the passages you cited seem pretty straightforward to me.

Proverbs 25:23 The north wind driveth away rain: so doth an angry countenance a backbiting tongue.

If someone comes up to you to share a juicy bit of gossip, and you scowl at them for doing so, they'll shut up about it.

Deuteronomy 23:17&18 There shall be no whore of the daughters of Israel, nor a sodomite of the sons of Israel. Thou shalt not bring the hire of a whore, or the price of a dog, into the house of the LORD thy God for any vow: for even both these are abomination unto the LORD thy God.

Priests at nearby heathen temples were basically pimps. They had temple prostitutes who turned their earnings into the priest. Here, God is forbidding those kind of shenanigans at His churches.

Deuteronomy 32:42 I will make mine arrows drunk with blood, and my sword shall devour flesh; and that with the blood of the slain and of the captives, from the beginning of revenges upon the enemy.

The Israelites were about to invade the promised land. Here, God is promising to kill all the bad-guys.

Agreed. So what TV programs does God demand we watch, and which of those will damn us to hell?

The answer to that question is as close as your nearest King James Bible.

A saved Christian whose faith is strong won't be damned to hell for watching a TV show, however I can't imagine such a person wanting to watch a show that glorifies sin. A newly-saved Christian should avoid anything that weakens his faith and causes him to stumble, and a stronger Christian should avoid exposing weaker Christians to such things.

1Thess 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
1Thess 5:22 Abstain from all appearance of evil.

Rom 14:21 It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak.

Pastor Billy-Reuben

[joe707]

Re: Joe707's Questions

Jesus made water from wine. I occasionally enjoy a 'brewski' with friends, but I don't have too many of either out here at Landover West. The polyglot of catholics, witches and hula dancers combine to make my life miserable most of the time.

It is my understanding that Landover Productions is considering our conversation as the basis for one of our radio shows. Drop back on occasion to see when it will air.

a hui hou, Joe.
Pastor Al

Landover Productions? That’s an intriguing idea, and slightly strange, but I am all ears.

I have to say Pascal’s wager seemed a ridiculous way to approach such serious matters when I first saw it, and remains so for me.

Re: hamburgers – would you put your faith in someone who approached your house daily to demand hamburgers, and paid you nothing? Would you trust someone who promised only future payment, in a timescale that you were utterly unable to comprehend in mortal life, knowing full well the crippling pain that that hope and fear brought you?