[Phil Ander]

Re: A married woman can NEVER refuse to have sex with her husband!

One of Landover's own pastors is helping me prepare a widow's listing for the Landover Singles section. It's time for me to shake off the shackles of the past and live again for what Jesus made me for.

I think you are the victim of an imposter, perhaps an incubus. A pastor has much more important things to do than play matchmaker for someone who is not a True Christian™.


Phil

[Joanna Lytton-Vasey]

Re: A married woman can NEVER refuse to have sex with her husband!

I think you are the victim of an imposter, perhaps an incubus. A pastor has much more important things to do than play matchmaker for someone who is not a True Christian™.

Can you even imagine Pastor Bathfire (just as an example, you understand) acting as some sort of "Shadchan" for the Unsaved?

[Xanax]

Re: A married woman can NEVER refuse to have sex with her husband

I, myself, would like to find a loyal and loving wife that knows what her function is in life and how she is meant to be the "helper of man"...


1 Peter 2:13
Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme

You are right. The word "helper" is the perfect word for a woman. We even see the Holy Spirit being referred to as our “helper” in John 14: 26, “But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.” The Holy Spirit is God and if God uses the same word to reference the Holy Spirit, women must be important to Him. So, the word “helper” emphasizes equality.

[Basilissa]

Re: A married woman can NEVER refuse to have sex with her husband

You are right. The word "helper" is the perfect word for a woman. We even see the Holy Spirit being referred to as our “helper” in John 14: 26, “But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.” The Holy Spirit is God and if God uses the same word to reference the Holy Spirit, women must be important to Him. So, the word “helper” emphasizes equality.

Wait, are you saying that the Holy Spirit is our equal? Or are you saying that the Holy Spirit is equal to God Father who commands Holy Spirit by sending Him to help people?

Either way, you are dead wrong.

By the way, be careful in your answer, because blasphemy agains the Holy Ghost is the one thing God does not forgive:

Matthew 12:31-32
31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

Yes, that's right, even mass murderers can be forgiven, but not those who hava blasphemed agains the Holy Ghost.

[Xanax]

Re: A married woman can NEVER refuse to have sex with her husband

Wait, are you saying that the Holy Spirit is our equal? Or are you saying that the Holy Spirit is equal to God Father who commands Holy Spirit by sending Him to help people?

Either way, you are dead wrong.

By the way, be careful in your answer, because blasphemy agains the Holy Ghost is the one thing God does not forgive:

Matthew 12:31-32
31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

Yes, that's right, even mass murderers can be forgiven, but not those who hava blasphemed agains the Holy Ghost.

Friend, I am not saying that the Holy Spirit is our equal? I don't know where you got that from. I am saying that God the Father and God the Holy Spirit are one in the same. I am presuming you believe in the trinity. All I am saying is that the Bible uses the word "helper" when describing the Holy Spirit and the same word is used to describe women. Clearly this is a good thing, not implying that women are inferior to men but equal as the Holy Spirit is equal to God.

Honestly is does not matter what you believe. What matters is what the Bible preaches and it preaches that men and women are equal in the sight of God. Please read the Bible and God will reveal this to you.

[Mary Etheldreda]

Re: A married woman can NEVER refuse to have sex with her husband

You are right. The word "helper" is the perfect word for a woman. We even see the Holy Spirit being referred to as our “helper” in John 14: 26, “But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.” The Holy Spirit is God and if God uses the same word to reference the Holy Spirit, women must be important to Him. So, the word “helper” emphasizes equality.

Nonsense. One does not follow the other. My oven is very important to me. It allows me to make meals and feed my family. Without good, warm food, they would not have the energy required to serve Christ. You'd be retarded to say an oven is my equal.

[Xanax]

Re: A married woman can NEVER refuse to have sex with her husband

Nonsense. One does not follow the other. My oven is very important to me. It allows me to make meals and feed my family. Without good, warm food, they would not have the energy required to serve Christ. You'd be retarded to say an oven is my equal.

God the Father and God the Holy Spirit are one if you believe in the trinity, just as man and woman are equal. Your ovan is not your equal and frankly has nothing to do with my post. Sorry, but your analogy makes absolutely no sense in regards to my point.

[Dana723]

Re: A married woman can NEVER refuse to have sex with her husband

God the Father and God the Holy Spirit are one if you believe in the trinity, just as man and woman are equal. Your ovan is not your equal and frankly has nothing to do with my post. Sorry, but your analogy makes absolutely no sense in regards to my point.

1. She is a so she's automatically right.


B. What's an ovan?


Thirdly, I thought her analogy was spot on!

[Basilissa]

Re: A married woman can NEVER refuse to have sex with her husband

Friend, I am not saying that the Holy Spirit is our equal?

You said he was sent as people's helper. You were equating that with the verse in Genesis which says women were created as men's helpers. I am simply trying to understand your logic because I am having trouble grasping it.

I don't know where you got that from. I am saying that God the Father and God the Holy Spirit are one in the same. I am presuming you believe in the trinity. All I am saying is that the Bible uses the word "helper" when describing the Holy Spirit and the same word is used to describe women. Clearly this is a good thing, not implying that women are inferior to men but equal as the Holy Spirit is equal to God.

God sent the Holy Spirit. Not the other way around. That means God commands the Holy Spirit. If we were talking about equality, Holy Spirit should be commanding God half of the time. If you find me Scripture which says that Holy Spirit commanded God to do something, I will concede.

What matters is what the Bible preaches and it preaches that men and women are equal in the sight of God.

If that were true, why all the verses about women having to submit to their husbands?
If that were true, why are women in the Bible sold to their futures husbands like cattle?
If that were true, why were there no ruling queens of Israel, only kings?
If that were true, why were all Apostles male?

Please read the Bible and God will reveal this to you.

I am reading it, and the only thing I see is that you either have a very selective memory or you read very tiny portions of the Bible and not the most of it.

[Xanax]

Re: A married woman can NEVER refuse to have sex with her husband

You said he was sent as people's helper. You were equating that with the verse in Genesis which says women were created as men's helpers. I am simply trying to understand your logic because I am having trouble grasping it.

God sent the Holy Spirit. Not the other way around. That means God commands the Holy Spirit. If we were talking about equality, Holy Spirit should be commanding God half of the time. If you find me Scripture which says that Holy Spirit commanded God to do something, I will concede.

If that were true, why all the verses about women having to submit to their husbands?
If that were true, why are women in the Bible sold to their futures husbands like cattle?
If that were true, why were there no ruling queens of Israel, only kings?
If that were true, why were all Apostles male?

I am reading it, and the only thing I see is that you either have a very selective memory or you read very tiny portions of the Bible and not the most of it.

God the Father and God the Holy Spirit are both one in the same. They are both God, thus they are both equal.

Submission is a mutual thing. Wives will bibically submit to their husbands if they love them and husbands will biblically love their wives if they respect them.

Yes, women may have been sold, but that does not make it right. The Bible does not promote this ever. When God created Adam and Eve in His image, was Eve ever bought. NO!

We do see Queens ruling Israel such as Queen Ester and Queen Jezabel. And we even read in 2 Kings 11 that Queen Athaliah was ruling Israel as Queen. Please read the Bible before you make suggestions that are not based on the Bible. We clearly see woman Queens in the Bible. We even see Deborah leading Israel as a strong Judge over Israel.

[Basilissa]

Re: A married woman can NEVER refuse to have sex with her husband

God the Father and God the Holy Spirit are both one in the same. They are both God, thus they are both equal.

If they are equal, why is God commanding the Holy Spirit and not vice versa?

Submission is a mutual thing.

Um, no, not in American English.

submission

noun

sub·mis·sion | \səb-ˈmi-shən \

Definition of submission

1a: a legal agreement to submit to the decision of arbitrators
b: an act of submitting something (as for consideration or inspection)also : something submitted (such as a manuscript)

2: the condition of being submissive, humble, or compliant

3: an act of submitting to the authority or control of another

Except for meaning 1b, which is not applicable here, submission implies an UNEQUAL relation between a person of authority (in the Bible, men) and a person without authority (in the Bible, women).

Wives will bibically submit to their husbands if they love them and husbands will biblically love their wives if they respect them.

Wait, wait, what? Are you changing the rules again? Where in the Bible does it say that men are expected to respect their wives?

Yes, women may have been sold, but that does not make it right. The Bible does not promote this ever.

Oh, really?

Let's have a look at Moses' law - you know, the laws that God dictated to Moses.

Here is one. Let's take a look:

Exodus 21:7-11
7 And if a man sell his daughter to be a maidservant, she shall not go out as the menservants do.
8 If she please not her master, who hath betrothed her to himself, then shall he let her be redeemed: to sell her unto a strange nation he shall have no power, seeing he hath dealt deceitfully with her.
9 And if he have betrothed her unto his son, he shall deal with her after the manner of daughters.
10 If he take him another wife; her food, her raiment, and her duty of marriage, shall he not diminish.
11 And if he do not these three unto her, then shall she go out free without money.

As you can see, the laws given by God include specific rules on how to sell your own daughter as a sex slave.

While you're at it, you may also want to check out these verses:

Deuteronomy 22:28-29
28 If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found;
29 Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife; because he hath humbled her, he may not put her away all his days.

Yes. When a man rapes a girl, the Biblical way to deal with it is to make the man pay for damaging the goods, and then force the victim to marry her rapist.

Of course, the Holy Bible isn't all about rape and sex slaves. We also find there such heartwarming stories like the one about Jacob, Rachel, and Leah - one man paying in 14 years of labor for two wives (because Laban swindled Jacob after the first seven years; Genesis 29:18-30).

When God created Adam and Eve in His image, was Eve ever bought. NO!

Of course not. Eve was a gift from God to Adam, because God was worried that Adam would feel lonely (Genesis 2:18-23).

We do see Queens ruling Israel such as Queen Ester

She was a trophy wife of a Persian king. That's like saying that Melania Trump is holding the highest office in the USA.

and Queen Jezabel.

I think you meant Jezebel. Phoenician princess and not a queen of her own but again, a wife of a king.

And we even read in 2 Kings 11 that Queen Athaliah was ruling Israel as Queen.

Only because she killed everyone who had more credentials to be the ruler. She missed one (2 Kings 11:2), and was overthrown as soon as the kid was considered to be old enough to give an impression of being able to rule on his own (2 Kings 11:13-16).

We even see Deborah leading Israel as a strong Judge over Israel.

One. One female judge in the whole Bible. A single one among many, many, many men.

[Xanax]

Re: A married woman can NEVER refuse to have sex with her husband

Let's have a look at Moses' law - you know, the laws that God dictated to Moses.

Here is one. Let's take a look:

Exodus 21:7-11
7 And if a man sell his daughter to be a maidservant, she shall not go out as the menservants do.
8 If she please not her master, who hath betrothed her to himself, then shall he let her be redeemed: to sell her unto a strange nation he shall have no power, seeing he hath dealt deceitfully with her.
9 And if he have betrothed her unto his son, he shall deal with her after the manner of daughters.
10 If he take him another wife; her food, her raiment, and her duty of marriage, shall he not diminish.
11 And if he do not these three unto her, then shall she go out free without money.

As you can see, the laws given by God include specific rules on how to sell your own daughter as a sex slave.

This is not talking about selling one's daughter as a sex slave. If you read the passage, it is talking about selling one's daughter as a servant. It even talks about selling one's son in verse 7. The only difference is that female servants cannot go free, because they must be treated as daughters. There are steps that needs to be taken to make sure she is safe before she can go free and her master is not responsible for her.

She was a trophy wife of a Persian king. That's like saying that Melania Trump is holding the highest office in the USA.

Queen Ester also saved her people. She broke the rules of her time period that oppressed women and God rewarded her. She showed bravery and courage.

I think you meant Jezebel. Phoenician princess and not a queen of her own but again, a wife of a king.

Yes and she led as well and murdered many people. Probably not the best example, but one of bad leadership

Only because she killed everyone who had more credentials to be the ruler. She missed one (2 Kings 11:2), and was overthrown as soon as the kid was considered to be old enough to give an impression of being able to rule on his own (2 Kings 11:13-16).

As with many other kings who were overthrown or killed. She still led.

One. One female judge in the whole Bible. A single one among many, many, many men.

YES she is in the Bible. You cannot ignore her. I don't care if there is one or 100. Deborah was a leader! You cannot deny that! She opposed the culture of the time that oppressed women. Women at that time did not hold positions of leadership because of the culture of the time. But God chose her to lead Israel, which means God considers women and men as equal. Unless you think God made a mistake by choosing her to rule Israel. GOD DOES NOT MAKE MISTAKES!!!!

[Basilissa]

Re: A married woman can NEVER refuse to have sex with her husband

This is not talking about selling one's daughter as a sex slave. If you read the passage, it is talking about selling one's daughter as a servant.

When you SELL al person, you can call it whatever you want, but in modern language any form of human trafficking is defined as SLAVERY. A servant who is not a slave cannot be sold and bought, a servant who is a free person goes wherever they want to work out of their free will.

It even talks about selling one's son in verse 7. The only difference is that female servants cannot go free, because they must be treated as daughters.

No, the difference is that a MALE SLAVE's SLAVERY PERIOD lasts seven years, and after that seven years a male slave is free to do whatever the hell he wants. Basically, male slavery in the Bible is a form of indentured servitude, where a person buys their own freedom after working a fixed period of time.

On the other hand, FEMALE SLAVES in the Bible are real slaves, who cannot earn their own freedom but stay slaves for life.

Similar rules also applied to both male and female slaves who were not Israelites (as seven year indentured servitude applied exclusively to male Israelites):

Leviticus 25:44-46
44 Both thy bondmen, and thy bondmaids, which thou shalt have, shall be of the heathen that are round about you; of them shall ye buy bondmen and bondmaids.
45 Moreover of the children of the strangers that do sojourn among you, of them shall ye buy, and of their families that are with you, which they begat in your land: and they shall be your possession.
46 And ye shall take them as an inheritance for your children after you, to inherit them for a possession; they shall be your bondmen for ever: but over your brethren the children of Israel, ye shall not rule one over another with rigour.

There are steps that needs to be taken to make sure she is safe before she can go free and her master is not responsible for her.

Thank you for acknowledging that the Bible does condone selling own children as slaves.

Queen Ester also saved her people. She broke the rules of her time period that oppressed women and God rewarded her. She showed bravery and courage.

Others could call it inciting genocide, but only after she felt in danger herself, not before.

But God chose her to lead Israel, which means God considers women and men as equal.

Nope. It just means He liked her for some reason. If God really considered men and women to be equal, HE WOULD HAVE SAID SO. And He certainly would not allow Apostle Paul to write all the misogynistic stuff he wrote.

Unless you think God made a mistake by choosing her to rule Israel. GOD DOES NOT MAKE MISTAKES!!!!

There is a flaw in your logic.

Yes, we both agree, that everything that happens on Earth is God's will, and we both agree that God does not make mistakes.

That means, that Stalin (who killed some 100 million people) and Hitler (who killed a meager 6 million or so) were not mistakes, but were placed by God to do some God-approved mayhem.

Yet, this undeniable fact does NOT mean that we should promote another Hitler or Stalin gaining power. The two of them were enough.

[Xanax]

Re: A married woman can NEVER refuse to have sex with her husband

When you SELL al person, you can call it whatever you want, but in modern language any form of human trafficking is defined as SLAVERY. A servant who is not a slave cannot be sold and bought, a servant who is a free person goes wherever they want to work out of their free will.

No, the difference is that a MALE SLAVE's SLAVERY PERIOD lasts seven years, and after that seven years a male slave is free to do whatever the hell he wants. Basically, male slavery in the Bible is a form of indentured servitude, where a person buys their own freedom after working a fixed period of time.

Yes but you have to consider the time period and the culture of the time. Women could not own property, they were considered less than men and it would be harmful them to go free. This was for their own protection. And your initial interpretations of the verses you quoted were WAY off. They were not talking about sex trafficing as you suggested. This is why you really need to study the Bible to understand it.

Others could call it inciting genocide, but only after she felt in danger herself, not before.

Esther was scared but it was her cousin that gave the courage to stand before the king and rescue her people. Mordecci says ,"Who knows but that you have come to a royal position for such a time as this?” (Esther 4:14)" There was a reason she was Queen as she was chosen by God to rescue His people. She risked her own life, to save her people. She cared more about others than herself. She could of kept quiet.

Nope. It just means He liked her for some reason. If God really considered men and women to be equal, HE WOULD HAVE SAID SO.

Deborah was only spoken about very highly and the men of her time obeyed her. We read this in Judges 4:6,"She sent for Barak son of Abinoam from Kedesh in Naphtali and said to him, “The Lord, the God of Israel, commands you: ‘Go, take with you ten thousand men of Naphtali and Zebulun and lead them up to Mount Tabor." Here we see Deborah speaking on behalf of God as a Judge. We also see that Israel was blessed with 40 years of peace during her leadership. This clearly shows that yes, God liked Deborah, but He also chose her to lead. And God did say men and women are equal when He said that man and woman are created in the image of God and that husbands and wives become one flesh once they are married.

[Basilissa]

Re: A married woman can NEVER refuse to have sex with her husband

Yes but you have to consider the time period and the culture of the time. Women could not own property, they were considered less than men

Yes. And the Bible reflects and supports this point of view.

Here are some selected examples:

Genesis 2:18 And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.
(Women were created to assist men. We already taked about this, and your explanation that a "helper" is equal to the person who is being helped does not make sense.)

Genesis 3:16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.
(We talked about this one too; Eve, the first woman, is to submit to her husband and so are all her female descendants as we all inherit the original sin).

Exodus 20:17 Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's.
(Women are property. Less valuable than a house but more valuable than slaves and livestock.)

Matthew 18:25 But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made.
(Jesus considers women (and children) to be property that can be sold.)

1st Corinthians 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.
(Note the word "every." If Paul was talking only to women of Corinth, he would have specified it)

1st Corinthians 11:7 For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man.
1st Corinthians 11:8 For the man is not of the woman; but the woman of the man.
1st Corinthians 11:9 Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man.
(This is obvious, but here it is again: men and men only are the image and glory of God; women were created for men).

1st Corinthians 14:34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.
1st Corinthians 14:35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.
(Women are too dumb to be allowed to speak in church; Paul does not specify that this applies only to women in Corinth)

1st Timothy 2:11Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
1st Timothy 2:12But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
1st Timothy 2:13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
1st Timothy 2:14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
1st Timothy 2:15Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.
(The only way for women to be saved is to keep their mouths shut, obey their husbands, and produce children)

Ephesians 5:22 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.
Ephesians 5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.
Ephesians 5:24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.
(The relation of women with their husbands is the same as the relation of the church with Christ: total obedience or you're going to Hell)

Colossians 3:18 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as it is fit in the Lord
(for those who forgot Ephesians already)

Titus 2:4 That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children,
Titus 2:5 To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed.
(Total submission again)

1st Peter 3:1 Likewise, ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands; that, if any obey not the word, they also may without the word be won by the conversation of the wives;
(This is one of the rare instances where Peter totally agrees with Paul)

1st Peter 3:5 For after this manner in the old time the holy women also, who trusted in God, adorned themselves, being in subjection unto their own husbands:
1st Peter 3:6 Even as Sara obeyed Abraham, calling him lord: whose daughters ye are, as long as ye do well, and are not afraid with any amazement.
(Just in case you forgot, here's subjection again)

and it would be harmful them to go free. This was for their own protection.

Of course, dear. Although, I admit, despite being a God fearing Christian woman, if my father wanted to sell me to some creep, I'd escape from them both, even if that meant eternal damnation.

And your initial interpretations of the verses you quoted were WAY off. They were not talking about sex trafficing as you suggested. This is why you really need to study the Bible to understand it.

Honey, when a woman is sold and subsequently having sexual relations with her owner, that IS sex trafficking. Re-read that passage again. See the mentions of humbling her (that's an euphemism for rape) and duty of marriage (an euphemism for sexual intercourse, without specifying whether consensual or rape)?

Esther was scared but it was her cousin that gave the courage to stand before the king and rescue her people. Mordecci says ,"Who knows but that you have come to a royal position for such a time as this?” (Esther 4:14)" There was a reason she was Queen as she was chosen by God to rescue His people. She risked her own life, to save her people. She cared more about others than herself. She could of kept quiet.

Still, she was not the ruler - her husband was. Ultimately, the blood of innocent women and children is on his hands:

Esther 8:11 Wherein the king granted the Jews which were in every city to gather themselves together, and to stand for their life, to destroy, to slay and to cause to perish, all the power of the people and province that would assault them, both little ones and women, and to take the spoil of them for a prey,

And God did say men and women are equal when He said that man and woman are created in the image of God

Except, that He did not say that.

When will you answer my question, how do imagine women being made in image of God? Do you think God is both our Father and Mother?