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Question Honest Questions - 06-14-2009, 07:42 PM

Hi, my name is Jonathan, and I have some questions, hopefully someone can help me understand. I'm not here to bash you guys, or speak anything against you, I just want to understand how you guys see these things.

Now, I do believe Jesus is God manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit (John 1:14, 1Timothy 3:16). I also believe many other things you believe.


I did notice you guys believe in beating your wives.. Can you tell me where in the scriptures it says that is an okay thing to do? I don't believe in that, and here are my scriptures to support my belief. Again, I am not attempting to bash you, as many other's have already. Just trying to understand.

----------
Gen 2:24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.

Pro 5:18 Let thy fountain be blessed: and rejoice with the wife of thy youth.

Pro 18:22 Whoso findeth a wife findeth a good thing, and obtaineth favour of the LORD.

Mat 1:20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.

Mat 5:32 But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.

Mat 19:5 And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?

1Co 7:3 Let the husband render unto the wife due benevolence: and likewise also the wife unto the husband.

Eph 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

Eph 5:28 So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself.
Eph 5:29 For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:
Eph 5:30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.
Eph 5:31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.
Eph 5:32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.
Eph 5:33 Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and the wife see that she reverence her husband.

Col 3:18 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as it is fit in the Lord.
Col 3:19 Husbands, love your wives, and be not bitter against them.
Col 3:20 Children, obey your parents in all things: for this is well pleasing unto the Lord.

1Pe 3:1 Likewise, ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands; that, if any obey not the word, they also may without the word be won by the conversation of the wives;

---------------

Hopefully I explained my thoughts well. There are other topics I don't agree within your doctrine, but I am not here to bash you, but to only understand why you believe those things, and where in the Bible it supports them.

One last one before I have to go... Your views on the Jews. Can you please explain why you believe they are bad people? I know Jesus Himself was a Jew, and the majority of the Bible was written by them.

Well, I gotta' get into my prayer closet before church. I hope I can get some clear answers, and hopefully I have not offended anyone. I'm just seeking knowledge of your beliefs without any bashing, arguing, or bantering.

Thanks and God bless.
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Default Re: Honest Questions - 06-14-2009, 07:51 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by BelovedGift View Post
Hi, my name is Jonathan, […] Just trying to understand.
----------
[…]Eph 5:33 Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and the wife see that she reverence her husband.

Col 3:18 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as it is fit in the Lord.
[…]
1Pe 3:1 Likewise, ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands; that, if any obey not the word, they also may without the word be won by the conversation of the wives;
A wife must “reverence her husband” Wives must revere their husband as Christ; Wife’s submit to the husband and be in subjection.

Clearly then if the wife fails in this, because a wife is the husband’s responsibility, and as the husband will answer to God for his wife’s sins, it is absolutely necessary to keep wives in line.
---------------

Quote:
One last one before I have to go... Your views on the Jews. Can you please explain why you believe they are bad people?
They killed Christ
Quote:
I know Jesus Himself was a Jew,
No he was NOT!
Quote:
and the majority of the Bible was written by them.
No, it was written by True Christians, who were also Baptists.





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Default Re: Honest Questions - 06-14-2009, 08:05 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by BelovedGift View Post
I did notice you guys believe in beating your wives.. Can you tell me where in the scriptures it says that is an okay thing to do?
Now that's just a loaded question! I was captain of the debate team when I was majoring in theology, so I know all about the tricks you atheists use you to make us Christians look bad. We don't beat our wives; we discipline them. There's a world of difference.

----------
Quote:
Gen 2:24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.


Yes. One flesh. And as Paul explains later, the Man is the Head and the Woman is the Body. Is not the head in control of the body?

Quote:
Pro 5:18 Let thy fountain be blessed: and rejoice with the wife of thy youth.


Yes. Enjoy your wife. That's what she's here for, to fulfill man's happiness. Again, a reference that women should be servants to a man's needs.

Quote:
Pro 18:22 Whoso findeth a wife findeth a good thing, and obtaineth favour of the LORD.


Yes, because as the Bible also illustrates, most women are vile whores. So finding a good wife is indeed quite rare, even rarer than rubies, the Bible tells us!

Quote:
Mat 1:20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.


What's your point? God needed a human vessel so that Christ can be born in the flesh. Of course it's going to be a woman! Do you think he was going to impregnate Joseph???

Quote:
Mat 5:32 But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.


Yes. Don't commit adultery and don't divorce. What does this have to do with women being equal to men like you claim the Bible supposedly does?

Quote:
Mat 19:5 And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?


Yes, one flesh. Again, as Paul later states the Man is the Head and the Wife is the Body. Clearly Jesus is saying women are men's property if they are one of the same flesh. After all, isn't your arms and legs your own property?

Quote:
1Co 7:3 Let the husband render unto the wife due benevolence: and likewise also the wife unto the husband.


Every man in Landover Baptist Church follows this. We are all benevolent towards our wives. However, notice it is a two-way street. The wife is also required to be benevolent. What if she acts out of line or gets wayward? That's where loving discipline comes in.

Quote:
Eph 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;


We all love our wives. If we didn't love them, we would let them be naturally rebellious and damn their own souls towards Hell.

Quote:
Eph 5:28 So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself.
Quote:
Eph 5:29 For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:
Eph 5:30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.
Eph 5:31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.
Eph 5:32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.
Eph 5:33 Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and the wife see that she reverence her husband.


Similar to the above. Again notice the requirement of the wife to give reverence to her husband. As long as the wife doesn't misbehave, the marriage is fine.

Quote:
Col 3:18 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as it is fit in the Lord.
Quote:
Col 3:19 Husbands, love your wives, and be not bitter against them.
Col 3:20 Children, obey your parents in all things: for this is well pleasing unto the Lord.


Strange that you quote these Colossians verses, since it pretty much proves our point about women. Wives, SUBMIT YOURSELVES unto your husbands! Paul is clearly saying women are lower than us and we have a right to rule over them. There is nothing about feminism and gender equality in this. But, thanks for quoting it nonetheless so that we can prove our point!

Quote:
1Pe 3:1 Likewise, ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands; that, if any obey not the word, they also may without the word be won by the conversation of the wives;


Yes, be in subject to your husbands.

Now, from the Bible verses you quoted, you can plainly observe that a recurring theme is that the Man is the master over the Woman, and there is no such thing as equality. It is true you cannot discipline your equal, but since women are not our equals (as the Bible illustrates), we are free to discipline them until they get back on the right path.

I am not ashamed to admit, in fact, I am rather proud, I do give my young wife a good spanking on the bare buttocks with a cat o' nine tails every now and then. I never, ever hit her in the face or punch her in the stomach or anything. I am not a sadistic monster. I am a loving, caring husband who looks after her, just as the Bible commands me.

Glad to have answered your honest questions! Now you know why we are right, and you are wrong.



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Default Re: Honest Questions - 06-14-2009, 10:38 PM

What about I Corinthians 7, it says there that both a man and a womanshould respect each other in marriage. My Bible teaches that the rulership of Adam over Eve resulted from the Fall and was therefore not a part of the original created order. Genesis 3:16 is a prediction of the effects of the Fall rather than a prescription of God's ideal order.
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Default Re: Honest Questions - 06-14-2009, 10:49 PM

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Originally Posted by Epithanatios View Post
What about I Corinthians 7, it says there that both a man and a womanshould respect each other in marriage.
Indeed a woman must subjugate herself to a man to show respect and a man must ensure that the woman behaves herself so he may respect her
Quote:
My Bible teaches that the rulership of Adam over Eve resulted from the Fall and was therefore not a part of the original created order. Genesis 3:16 is a prediction of the effects of the Fall rather than a prescription of God's ideal order.
Let's have a look at that verse - Ge:3:16: Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

You seem to be missing the point here, (a) see Ge:2:18 below and (b) God said in Ge:3:16: "he shall rule over thee" It doesn't matter when or why he said it - that is what He said! Unless you are calling God a liar!

Ge:2:18: And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.





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Default Re: Honest Questions - 06-15-2009, 12:15 AM

Therefore using your own logic a woman should be able to ensure that the man behaves himself because he is just as susceptible to sin as a woman
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Default Re: Honest Questions - 06-15-2009, 12:26 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Epithanatios View Post
What about I Corinthians 7, it says there that both a man and a womanshould respect each other in marriage. My Bible teaches that the rulership of Adam over Eve resulted from the Fall and was therefore not a part of the original created order. Genesis 3:16 is a prediction of the effects of the Fall rather than a prescription of God's ideal order.
We don't allow queers in this section of the forum, only Normal men. Take it somewhere else, Greek boy.


Who Will Jesus Damn?

Here is a partial list from just a few scripture verses:

Hypocrites (Matthew 24:51), The Unforgiving (Mark 11:26), Homosexuals (Romans 1:26, 27), Fornicators (Romans 1:29), The Wicked (Romans 1:29), The Covetous (Romans 1:29), The Malicious (Romans 1:29), The Envious (Romans 1:29), Murderers (Romans 1:29), The Deceitful (Romans 1:29), Backbiters (Romans 1:30), Haters of God (Romans 1:30), The Despiteful (Romans 1:30), The Proud (Romans 1:30), Boasters (Romans 1:30), Inventors of evil (Romans 1:30), Disobedient to parents (Romans 1:30), Covenant breakers (Romans 1:31), The Unmerciful (Romans 1:31), The Implacable (Romans 1:31), The Unrighteous (1Corinthians 6:9), Idolaters (1Corinthians 6:9), Adulterers (1Corinthians 6:9), The Effeminate (1Corinthians 6:9), Thieves (1Corinthians 6:10), Drunkards (1Corinthians 6:10), Reviler (1Corinthians 6:10), Extortioners (1Corinthians 6:10), The Fearful (Revelation 21:8), The Unbelieving (Revelation 21:8), The Abominable (Revelation 21:8), Whoremongers (Revelation 21:8), Sorcerers (Revelation 21:8), All Liars (Revelation 21:8)

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Default Re: Honest Questions - 06-15-2009, 02:06 AM

oooh ouch....I can assure you sir that I am not a queer, however even though I am white i suppose you are justified in calling me greek, since my self proclaimed name is....haha when I first looked at your post I thought it said geek,
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Default Re: Honest Questions - 06-15-2009, 02:24 AM

What's so (haha) funny God-mocker? Your silly, simplistic point has been proven wrong, so either start being polite or hit the bricks!

Any other ridiculous non-arguments you'd like to have proven wrong boy?




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Question Re: Honest Questions - 06-15-2009, 02:40 AM

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Originally Posted by Capt. A. Portway View Post
What's so (haha) funny God-mocker? Your silly, simplistic point has been proven wrong, so either start being polite or hit the bricks!

Any other ridiculous non-arguments you'd like to have proven wrong boy?
ooh man what`s with the insults being thrown around here. I`d like to be shown when and where I`ve been mocking God! And no there hasn`t been an argument yet that proves me wrong conclusively....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ezekiel Bathfire View Post
...You seem to be missing the point here, (a) see Ge:2:18 below and (b) God said in Ge:3:16: "he shall rule over thee" It doesn't matter when or why he said it - that is what He said! Unless you are calling God a liar!

Ge:2:18: And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.
Is this not similar to a Biblical term called the Pharisee? From your own words you do not care to understand the law but only follow it to a "T" correct me if I am wrong (i'm always open to new ideas) but I thought that Jesus specifically preached against this specific idealism.
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Default Re: Honest Questions - 06-15-2009, 02:48 AM

That's much more polite!

And your point has been proven wrong with scripture, how much more proof do you need?

Look n00b, this is our forum. We make the rules. Follow them or get banned!




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Default Re: Honest Questions - 06-15-2009, 02:53 AM

No, the Pharisees problem was 1) they expected others to follow the rules when they didn't, and 2) they added their own rules on top of the ones explicitly stated in the Bible.

Right now, you fall into category number 2.
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Default Re: Honest Questions - 06-15-2009, 02:54 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Capt. A. Portway View Post
That's much more polite!

And your point has been proven wrong with scripture, how much more proof do you need?

Look n00b, this is our forum. We make the rules. Follow them or get banned!
hmmmm....i`m not aware of breaking any rules....could you list those that I have broken so I can better follow them?

No it has not proven that I am wrong all that Mr. Ezekiel Bathfire did was basically say that he wasn`t interested in understanding the Bible.....prove me wrong and I will believe you. Lemme ask you something....when you were in school did you just take the answer key and find all the answers for your tests or did you understand why 2+2 is 4 and not 5?
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Default Re: Honest Questions - 06-15-2009, 02:59 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Heathen_Basher View Post
No, the Pharisees problem was 1) they expected others to follow the rules when they didn't, and 2) they added their own rules on top of the ones explicitly stated in the Bible.

Right now, you fall into category number 2.
whatever happened to Luke 6, when Jesus `disobeyed` the law of the sabbath....Can you prove to me that they added their own rules? and yes I agree with you on your first point.
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Default Re: Honest Questions - 06-15-2009, 03:14 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Epithanatios View Post
whatever happened to Luke 6, when Jesus `disobeyed` the law of the sabbath....Can you prove to me that they added their own rules? and yes I agree with you on your first point.
Jesus is God.

He commanded others to keep the Sabbath holy to Him.

That doesn't mean He had to do the same.


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Default Re: Honest Questions - 06-15-2009, 03:30 AM

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Originally Posted by JennyD View Post
Jesus is God.

He commanded others to keep the Sabbath holy to Him.

That doesn't mean He had to do the same.
And his disciples?
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Default Re: Honest Questions - 06-15-2009, 04:04 AM

Luke 6 IS an example of the Pharisees making up their own rules. All the Old Testament says is to not work on Sabbath. The Disciples just picked up some corn from a field to eat. This isn't really eating, but the Pharisees extended rules of how to keep the Sabbath, which is not from God, included not being allowed to pluck crops. Jesus was just letting them know that they were wrong on this point.

You want more proof that they added their own rules? Look, do even the tinsiest about of research on what the Pharisee party was and you'll find out that they were a sect that had a very long list of extra-Biblical commands they had to keep. Even the Bible says so:

Mark 7: 5Then the Pharisees and scribes asked him, Why walk not thy disciples according to the tradition of the elders, but eat bread with unwashen hands?
6He answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me.
7Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
10For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
11But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
12And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
13Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

Oh, and you clearly did not agree with my first point, because you said the only problem Jesus had with the Pharisees was that they wanted everyone to follow the commands of God fully, not that they were hypocrites.
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Default Re: Honest Questions - 06-15-2009, 05:11 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Epithanatios View Post
hmmmm....i`m not aware of breaking any rules....could you list those that I have broken so I can better follow them?

No it has not proven that I am wrong all that Mr. Ezekiel Bathfire did was basically say that he wasn`t interested in understanding the Bible.....prove me wrong and I will believe you. Lemme ask you something....when you were in school did you just take the answer key and find all the answers for your tests or did you understand why 2+2 is 4 and not 5?
Have you read this? Before you start with the attitude you'd better know what your rights are here. In a nutshell, the rules are "Do what we say."

Keep being lippy, and it's hasta la c-ya pal!




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Default Re: Honest Questions - 06-15-2009, 11:20 AM

Ehm, back to my questions.........

No, I wasn't trying to start a debate, nor am I an Atheist. I was honestly asking because I had searched the forums and hadn't found any scriptures to relate to what you believe. Maybe I didn't look hard enough, but my questions are honest and sincere. Also, I'm not here to tell you guys you're right or wrong, nor argue.

Now, I do agree with women being subject to their husbands, but I'm not sure about beating them. I know in the Church of Corinth that the women disrupted services, plus there were many other things going on in that church that were wrong. I also don't believe the majority of women are "vile whores". God created woman to be man's "helper", and yeah, Eve sinned and caused Adam to sin, although Adam sinned himself by accepting the fruit from her, instead of refusing it.

About Jesus now, yeah, He is God manifest in the flesh. He was also a Jew because He was born of Mary who was also a Jew. If Jesus had not been crucified, then we could have never been saved. Jesus went throughout the lands where the Jews lived and healed "all" in the cities. He also was called "King of the Jews". In Luke 23:34, Jesus says that they know not what they are doing. God hardened their hearts so that His blood could be shed for us.

Yes, I believe that the Bible was written by true christians, but the first christians were Jews. Moses, Abraham, David, Mary, Peter, Jesus... All Jews. The Old Testament was written by Jews moved by the Spirit of God. And true christians, as the Bible says, all should be meek, peaceful, forgiving, loving, faithful, ect.

Well I gotta' get to work. God bless.
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Default Re: Honest Questions - 06-15-2009, 01:16 PM

I think you are misinterperting the word. I do not "beat" my wife. I do discipline her however. Some consider any physical contact a "beating". Others, brutal strikes in fits a of rage.

Job 36:10 (King James Version)

He openeth also their ear to discipline, and commandeth that they return from iniquity.


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Matthew 10:36 And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.
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