Joe707's Questions

[joe707]

I would like to respond to some of the other comments, there are some very good issues raised. But Pastor, you are spot on. At least you can see beyond the words. I do not doubt the strength of your convictions – or indeed your knowledge of your Bible. What I call into question is the LBC claim to know God, truth, faith, love, awareness and - not least - care. And I would be prepared to take up that gauntlet, because I have seen some of the things that supposedly pass for ‘truth’ and ‘care’ here. And there are problems.

Please remember, it is not your intentions I question here, merely the way they are played out. English is indeed my native language. And I really would prefer this continue in a public forum, please. What is the worst that can happen?

[Nobar King]

Re: What the heak is wrong with you people?

Stop beating around the bush, Joe. What is it that you really want to say? Most people don't have any trouble getting that out in their first post.

[Pastor Billy-Reuben]

Re: What the heak is wrong with you people?

maybe its time you realised that the bible is a lot of stories (BY THE WAY I BELIEVE IN GOD AND JESUS AS MY SAVIOUR)

If the Bible is not to be trusted, then what exactly do you know about Jesus? The Bible is the only source material that describes Him. If you throw that out, then you throw out all first-hand knowledge of Jesus.

Might I suggest along with Lady Amandria that you make the forum members only? Hopefully it will help people avoid your particular brand of theology if they so wish, and lead to less vitriol being published for all concerned.

The Devil would sure like that, if God's truth was hidden from public view.

I also know that God here is exclusively and completely defined by KJV1611 scripture alone. I wonder if, though, this anyone cares to explore this genuinely?

Friend, I would be delighted to explore this topic with you. Why don't you start a new thread with a few of your questions. You might want to be careful though, because we could end up answering your questions more thoroughly than you expected, and you might end up getting saved

I should point out that right now I am not as yet familiar with the KJV1611, but maybe you will allow me that small indiscretion, at least for the time being.

What Bible are you familiar with? Most other Bibles are kind of close to the truth, and your familiarity with your Bible should help. I have read through lots of Bibles, and I have found the KJV1611 to be the most trustworthy by far.

Pastor Billy-Reuben

[joe707]

Re: What the heak is wrong with you people?

We are seekers of God. Jesus told us:

Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. 8For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened. Matthew 7:7-8
We are seekers, and finders, and knockers, and proud of it.

Thank you for your info, I will look into it for sure, although it might take me a while. You are a seeker? May you find, and knock, and be welcomed.

How else but genuinely would we explore the Living Word of God

Some might say there are other ways. Indeed some have said that here, to the LBC's considerable distaste.

[Pastor Billy-Reuben]

Re: What the heak is wrong with you people?

Some might say there are other ways. Indeed some have said that here, to the LBC's considerable distaste.

The problem with those "other ways" is that they are not objective. Liberal Christians are between a rock and a hard place.

If you have the Bible and you trust it to be God's Word, then you have objective truth right there in front of you in black and white. We believe all of the Bible, even the parts that make us uncomfortable.

On the other end of the spectrum, you have scientists who use the scientific method on empirical data in an attempt to learn the truth. They believe what the evidence points to, even if it makes them uncomfortable.

In the middle, you have liberal Christians who believe the parts of the Bible that say what they want to hear, disbelieving the rest, and they believe the findings of science that say what they want to hear, disbelieving the rest.

Liberal Christians are basically living in a fantasy world, believing whatever they want to believe, without a care as to whether what they believe is actually true. Even if they did care, they have no tools for determining what is true or false. Fundamentalists have an inerrant text, and scientists have empirical methods, but liberal Christians have nothing.

Therefore, the only objective forms of belief are science and fundamentalism, and since we all know that scientists are all working for the Devil, that leaves fundamentalism as the only viable option.

Pastor Billy-Reuben

[Pastor Al E Pistle]

Re: What the heak is wrong with you people?

I would like to respond to some of the other comments, there are some very good issues raised. But Pastor, you are spot on. At least you can see beyond the words. I do not doubt the strength of your convictions – or indeed your knowledge of your Bible. What I call into question is the LBC claim to know God, truth, faith, love, awareness and - not least - care. And I would be prepared to take up that gauntlet, because I have seen some of the things that supposedly pass for ‘truth’ and ‘care’ here. And there are problems.

Please remember, it is not your intentions I question here, merely the way they are played out. English is indeed my native language. And I really would prefer this continue in a public forum, please. What is the worst that can happen?

Well Joe, the worst that could happen is that you could get banned or be struck by lightning. Here's the problem. You cannot take up that particular gauntlet. For your purposes, our answers would be subjective and possibly even unconvincing. But I am sure you have heard the phrase "We are a God-fearing nation". The Bible teaches us to fear God's wrath, not to expect His love. That's what it says, period. Of the 31,101 verses in the Bible, less than 200 of them do not refer, directly or indirectly, to violence and/or punishment, or God's wrath.

This started changing in the early twentieth century when evangelists, and Aimee Semple McPherson in particular, was having an off day and preached love instead of fear. She noticed that her collection plate was fuller that day, so she started preaching only the 'feel-good' parts of the Bible. She was followed by Mary Baker Eddy and Christian Science, and then a long line of traveling salvation shows and eventually an entire industry of television evangelists, scientologists, wiccans...and now...almost all church services are sing alongs, rock concerts, feel-good verses and lies. All you hear in church is what you want to hear; how much JESUS loves you, why everyone will go to heaven, why women have souls, slavery is bad, and people toss a fifty into the box so that GOD will look the other way for a week or two while they go out and keep sinning.

But it doesn't work that way. You can't pick and choose the parts of the Bible you like and ignore the rest. You can't create GOD in the image you want. And you can't go through life acting out and still expect Salvation™ because JESUS was crucified and spilled His blood to give you the freedom to run amok on earth, thus you are guaranteed a free ticket to Heaven.

That's what we tell people. That's what the Bible says, and that's all we have to go on. The "truth" is the Good Book. It's not debatable. It's not interpretable. And since the advent of television and the dumbing down of America, it's not even accessable. High school graduates no longer have the basic skills necessary to survive in the world, much less study a book they can't understand.

We don't sell anything here and I am the first to admit that we resort to a couple of card tricks to keep from being sued by everyone and his brother. So debating our convictions is pointless. We have them and we offer them freely with the gift of Scripture. But since ALL organized religions claim to be the One and Only, or the Mother Church, or follow a fast-talking Latter Day Pedophile, challenging our beliefs is not going to prove to be a successful strategy.

That said, we will still engage, but we cannot debate Bible against Bible. We use the KJV1611 (Authorized) Bible and hold it to be the correct version.

[joe707]

Re: What the heak is wrong with you people?

Pastor, thank you for contributing to this thread. It is good to discuss quite serious matters without resorting to silly bickering. Because these are serious and important matters. I'm sure you will agree.

If the Bible is not to be trusted, then what exactly do you know about Jesus? The Bible is the only source material that describes Him. If you throw that out, then you throw out all first-hand knowledge of Jesus.

Well, this might be a bit pedantic, but clearly your definition of first-hand knowledge and mine differs! But I do understand the LBC viewpoint on these things.

The Devil would sure like that, if God's truth was hidden from public view.

Ha ha! Quite! So lets continue in this vein, it is for the best.

Friend, I would be delighted to explore this topic with you. Why don't you start a new thread with a few of your questions. You might want to be careful though, because we could end up answering your questions more thoroughly than you expected, and you might end up getting saved

Well, that's ok by me (not sure what to call this thread though?) Can you create a new thread from this? Otherwise I will come up with some header, but not sure which is the most appropriate forum to post it in, so maybe better if you guys do it. And you know, Pastor, I do wonder if at the root of it all we both want similar things. Do not hesitate to answer my questions thoroughly. Because, rest assured, being 'saved' by the LBC would not be the worst thing in existence. But we both know that.

What Bible are you familiar with? Most other Bibles are kind of close to the truth, and your familiarity with your Bible should help. I have read through lots of Bibles, and I have found the KJV1611 to be the most trustworthy by far.

Pastor Billy-Reuben

I am looking at the KJV1611, but I am new to this, and work and other time intrusions persist, so it would no doubt take me a while to learn it as deeply as you and your pastors do. But by all means refer to your source, as I will mine.

[Nobar King]

Re: What the heak is wrong with you people?

What is your point? What is this mysterious 'source' you keep referring to?

And, what's the story with your user handle? Are you from Petaluma? Or does 707 just mean that you are lolling at us?

[joe707]

Re: What the heak is wrong with you people?

Well Joe, the worst that could happen is that you could get banned or be struck by lightning. Here's the problem. You cannot take up that particular gauntlet. For your purposes, our answers would be subjective and possibly even unconvincing. But I am sure you have heard the phrase "We are a God-fearing nation". The Bible teaches us to fear God's wrath, not to expect His love. That's what it says, period. Of the 31,101 verses in the Bible, less than 200 of them do not refer, directly or indirectly, to violence and/or punishment, or God's wrath.

This started changing in the early twentieth century when evangelists, and Aimee Semple McPherson in particular, was having an off day and preached love instead of fear. She noticed that her collection plate was fuller that day, so she started preaching only the 'feel-good' parts of the Bible. She was followed by Mary Baker Eddy and Christian Science, and then a long line of traveling salvation shows and eventually an entire industry of television evangelists, scientologists, wiccans...and now...almost all church services are sing alongs, rock concerts, feel-good verses and lies. All you hear in church is what you want to hear; how much JESUS loves you, why everyone will go to heaven, why women have souls, slavery is bad, and people toss a fifty into the box so that GOD will look the other way for a week or two while they go out and keep sinning.

But it doesn't work that way. You can't pick and choose the parts of the Bible you like and ignore the rest. You can't create GOD in the image you want. And you can't go through life acting out and still expect Salvation™ because JESUS was crucified and spilled His blood to give you the freedom to run amok on earth, thus you are guaranteed a free ticket to Heaven.

That's what we tell people. That's what the Bible says, and that's all we have to go on. The "truth" is the Good Book. It's not debatable. It's not interpretable. And since the advent of television and the dumbing down of America, it's not even accessable. High school graduates no longer have the basic skills necessary to survive in the world, much less study a book they can't understand.

We don't sell anything here and I am the first to admit that we resort to a couple of card tricks to keep from being sued by everyone and his brother. So debating our convictions is pointless. We have them and we offer them freely with the gift of Scripture. But since ALL organized religions claim to be the One and Only, or the Mother Church, or follow a fast-talking Latter Day Pedophile, challenging our beliefs is not going to prove to be a successful strategy.

That said, we will still engage, but we cannot debate Bible against Bible. We use the KJV1611 (Authorized) Bible and hold it to be the correct version.

I appreciate your honesty Pastor. I also share many reservations of the misinterpretation of - and selective focus on - truth that you have touched upon, and can see the damage it causes. I will debate with your members if need be, in the same way other people enjoy crossword puzzles. It is fun up to a point, but as you recognize, one has to move on eventually to more substantial matters. Your answers may not wholly convince me, but I am not interested in debating to score points, win liturgical battles, or to needlessly contest one Bible against another.

But yet there are elements that I would like to hear your – and senior pastors’ - opinions of. You all have a duty and a responsibility that is quite influential. And those elements I wish to raise are not only of value to your dissenters, but to everyone. There are things of faith in the Word and faith in God that should be discussed; if only because it clears the obstacles to truth. Which I guess you guys are interested in, right?

[Nobar King]

Re: What the heak is wrong with you people?

This isn't about the 'Order of Melchizedek', is it?

[Pastor Billy-Reuben]

Re: What the heak is wrong with you people?

But yet there are elements that I would like to hear your – and senior pastors’ - opinions of.

You've been beating around the bush for a while now, friend. Let's hear them already.

You've got our expectations up now, so we're all going to be really disappointed if all you have are tired old copy-and-pasted questions from skeptic websites that we've already seen and answered a dozen times. We are all expecting something new and original.

There are things of faith in the Word and faith in God that should be discussed; if only because it clears the obstacles to truth. Which I guess you guys are interested in, right?

Amen! We're all for removing stumbling stones and rocks that offend.

I'm going to bed now, so I'll look at your questions in the morning.

Pastor Billy-Reuben

[Pastor Al E Pistle]

Re: What the heak is wrong with you people?

I appreciate your honesty Pastor. I also share many reservations of the misinterpretation of - and selective focus on - truth that you have touched upon, and can see the damage it causes.

We can't win every battle, Joe. Trying to would simply dilute our efforts. We pick our battles, and we use shock tactics. But we never know whether we have won. We are not a typical ministry. We don't try to save anyone. We simply try to ummmm...motivate.. people enough that they will go to the Bible and start reading it, and that is usually to disprove something we said. It's a trick, a ploy, a teaching technique and even reverse psychology if you wish. But we don't misquote Scripture and we get a LOT more people researching the Bible than any church ever did. People think they can go to church and that's it for another week or month. We don't let them off that easily. We realize that our job is not saving souls. It's leading them to GOD. He will save them or not.

I will debate with your members if need be, in the same way other people enjoy crossword puzzles. It is fun up to a point, but as you recognize, one has to move on eventually to more substantial matters. Your answers may not wholly convince me, but I am not interested in debating to score points, win liturgical battles, or to needlessly contest one Bible against another.

Sure. Neither are we. I have a life which I could be leading outside this forum. But I am a senior pastor and this is my calling at the moment.

But yet there are elements that I would like to hear your – and senior pastors’ - opinions of. You all have a duty and a responsibility that is quite influential. And those elements I wish to raise are not only of value to your dissenters, but to everyone. There are things of faith in the Word and faith in God that should be discussed; if only because it clears the obstacles to truth. Which I guess you guys are interested in, right?

We are. But I mentioned earlier that we are intentionally a bit controversial. We do not agree with Fred Phelps that 'God hates fags'. That idea is just wrong. God hates the abomination of sin they perform. In point of fact, Phelps is an idiot and more of a liberal than a Pastor. He seems to simply want attention.

We are not Vanilla Christians who have huge congregations, millions of dollars and huge skeletons in their closets. Ted Haggard. Kent Hovind. Jim and Tammy Bakker. ALL of them. They want your money and they convince a lot of people to send it to them. You CAN donate to us, but you don't have to. You can talk to a dozen of the most literate and educated Theologians anywhere just by visiting this forum, and a lot of people do. We have simply chosen a different path than the mainstream, which we believe has off-tracked from GOD'S real message. It seems to work. We are closing on half a million hits a month. Not many people join, but many, many, read what we say here. A lot of them disagree and start yelling, but a lot more actually go off to research the Scripture we quote to prove us wrong. Naturally, they can't. So they read a little more. That's our intent. We WANT people to read the Bible and we have found a novel way of getting them to do just that. I don't know why you are here yet, Joe. But the fact you are can't be a bad thing. We have somehow caught your interest.

[joe707]

Re: What the heak is wrong with you people?

But I mentioned earlier that we are intentionally a bit controversial.

Yes, I can see that! I don't have a problem with controversy per se; I do think some license is being taken here though.

This isn't about the 'Order of Melchizedek', is it?

I don't know what that is; I might have to do a google search.

We are all expecting something new and original

Maybe I have nothing new or original to present here; you can judge.

My first issue is with the literal word being the sole and exclusive claim on truth. You say the KJV1611 is indeed written by God. I tried in an earlier post to point out that this claim in itself is indefensible on grounds of logic alone. Faith must be involved that this is the case; some appeal to the heart or soul rather than the intellect. I personally don’t see a problem with this state of affairs; but then I am not in the business of making extraordinary claims!

Second, to claim any text as the word of God means that (a) interpretation will be necessary. I know how strongly you oppose this, but given the obvious imprecisions inherent with word meaning I think it is the most likely outcome. And (b) that such a text is not fully comprehensive or exhaustive, so naturally some human behavior will neither conform to nor fall foul of the word; a ‘gray’ area. Again, I don’t have a problem with (b), but I suspect you guys do.

[Ezekiel Bathfire]

Re: What the heak is wrong with you people?

[...]I am not interested in debating to score points, win liturgical battles, or to needlessly contest one Bible against another.

I'm sure the Pastors are being very patient with you, but when a wise man sees the facts change, he changes his mind.

[joe707]

Re: What the heak is wrong with you people?

I'm sure the Pastors are being very patient with you, but when a wise man sees the facts change, he changes his mind.

I don't understand?