[epignosis]

Re: God HATES Rational Thinking!

Luke 16:22-24: And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

Why would the rich man react like that if hell were just eternal nonexistence? For that matter, how could he react if hell were just eternal nonexistence?

There is no Biblical statement nor any reason to link the historical Lazarus with the beggar of Jesus’ illustration of the rich man and Lazarus

By what Jesus said about the rich man and Lazarus, did Jesus teach torment of the wicked after death?
Is the account, at Luke 16:19-31, literal or merely an illustration of something else? The Jerusalem Bible, in a footnote, acknowledges that it is a “parable in story form without reference to any historical personage.” If taken literally, it would mean that those enjoying divine favor could all fit at the bosom of one man, Abraham; that the water on one’s fingertip would not be evaporated by the fire of Hades; that a mere drop of water would bring relief to one suffering there. Does that sound reasonable to you? If it were literal, it would conflict with other parts of the Bible. If the Bible were thus contradictory, would a lover of truth use it as a basis for his faith? But the Bible does not contradict itself.
What does the parable mean? The “rich man” represented the Pharisees. (See verse 14.) The beggar Lazarus represented the common Jewish people who were despised by the Pharisees but who repented and became followers of Jesus. (See Luke 18:11; John 7:49; Matthew 21:31,*32.) Their deaths were also symbolic, representing a change in circumstances. Thus, the formerly despised ones came into a position of divine favor, and the formerly seemingly favored ones were rejected by God, while being tormented by the judgment messages delivered by the ones whom they had despised.—Acts 5:33; 7:54.

So then,what is the origin of the teaching of hellfire?
In ancient Babylonian and Assyrian beliefs the “nether world .*.*. is pictured as a place full of horrors, and*is*presided*over by gods and demons of great strength and*fierceness.”*(The Religion of Babylonia and Assyria, Boston, 1898, Morris Jastrow, Jr., p. 581) Early evidence of the fiery*aspect*of*Christendom’s hell is found in*the*religion of*ancient Egypt. (The Book of the Dead, New Hyde Park,*N.Y., 1960, with introduction by E. A.*Wallis Budge, pp. 144, 149,*151,*153,*161) Buddhism, which dates back to the 6th century*B.C.E., in time came to feature both hot and cold hells. (The Encyclopedia Americana, 1977, Vol.*14, p.*68) Depictions of hell portrayed in Catholic churches in*Italy have been traced to Etruscan roots.—La civiltà etrusca*(Milan, 1979), Werner Keller, p. 389.
But the real roots of this God-dishonoring doctrine go much deeper. The fiendish concepts associated with a hell of torment slander God and originate with the chief slanderer of God (the Devil, which name means “Slanderer”), the one whom Jesus Christ called “the father of the lie.”—John 8:44.

[Pastor Isaac Peters]

Re: God HATES Rational Thinking!

There is only death. The scriptures tells us that the soul that is sinning dies.
So when people die they have paid the price for sin.
Now if God 'remembers' you , then you will be resurrected. But if he does not, then,you are thrown into the lake of fire ( the second death) which is no resurrection.
Now to humans we wonder why Hitler will not be tortured, but that is man's thoughts. Not God's. Now on the other hand if you die ( which is the price for sin) and God remembers you , you will have a resurrection. So you will get life where Hitler like ones will not. ( though it is not my place to pass judgement on anyone) The reason I say this is because Saul was the foremost persecutors of the followers of Jesus even stoning ones to death. Saul became Paul and became a exceptional apostle.
Even Satan will not be tortured, he also will just be done away with.

Luke 16:22-24: And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

Why would the rich man react like that if hell were just eternal nonexistence? For that matter, how could he react if hell were just eternal nonexistence?

[Bobby-Joe]

Re: God HATES Rational Thinking!

There is only death. The scriptures tells us that the soul that is sinning dies.
So when people die they have paid the price for sin.
Now if God 'remembers' you , then you will be resurrected. But if he does not, then,you are thrown into the lake of fire ( the second death) which is no resurrection.
Now to humans we wonder why Hitler will not be tortured, but that is man's thoughts. Not God's. Now on the other hand if you die ( which is the price for sin) and God remembers you , you will have a resurrection. So you will get life where Hitler like ones will not. ( though it is not my place to pass judgement on anyone) The reason I say this is because Saul was the foremost persecutors of the followers of Jesus even stoning ones to death. Saul became Paul and became a exceptional apostle.
Even Satan will not be tortured, he also will just be done away with.

How, pray tell, will that be an a punishment for an Atheist?

Atheists are good mocking scum who firmly believe over there is no God or any afterlife. In there sick and twisted minds they can just rape other men and eat babies every day of their lives because they say there is no point. To an Atheist there is no reward for the virtuous, no punishment for the wicked so why no go out and commit murder or belong to a union, because when you die, you just stop existing.

All you just said is Atheists are right.

Atheists MUST burn in Hell for all eternity if there is to be any justice!

[Meek and Humble]

Re: God HATES Rational Thinking!

We know that the bible says there is no works in death or thinking or anything.

Does it?

The physical death process involves the separation of the human spirit or soul from the physical body. The death of Rachel, Jacob’s wife, was described as her “soul” departing from her “body” (Gen. 35:18).

At the point of death, the body returns to the dust, but the spirit returns to God (Eccl. 12:6-7) —who will deal with it appropriately (Gen. 18:25).

The death of the body is biblically defined by the departure of the spirit (Jas. 2:26). Scholars have noted that for the “vast mass of mankind” death has never been viewed as nonexistence (J.S. Clemens, Hastings Dictionary of the Bible, Peabody, MA: Hendrickson, 1989, p. 181).

Spiritual death is the condition of being alienated from Jehovah. Since sin separates a person from God (Isa. 59:1-2), the state of being estranged from the Creator is depicted metaphorically as the person being dead. When Adam and Eve disobeyed God, that very “day” they died (Gen. 2:17; cf. 3:8,23), i.e., they were separated from fellowship with the Lord (though other implications likely are involved as well; see 3:19). Prior to their conversion, the Ephesian saints had been spiritually “dead” (Eph. 2:1), i.e., alienated from the Lord (2:12-13). It is possible to be “dead” spiritually while alive physically.

Paul declared that the widow who devotes herself to pleasure is “dead,” even though she is alive (1 Tim. 5:6). Christ wrote a letter to the church in Sardis wherein he described a significant portion of these disciples as “dead” (Rev. 3:1), that is they had drifted from Christian fidelity. The “Second Death”

The second death is an ultimate and eternal separation from God.

The expression is found four times in the book of Revelation ( 2:11; 20:6,14; 21:8). J.H. Thayer defined the “second death” as “the miserable state of the wicked dead in hell” (Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament, Edinburgh: T.&T. Clark, 1958, p. 283).

This condition is characterized as the second death because it follows physical death; it is designated as death because it is the terminal separation from the Lord (Mt. 7:23; 25:41; 2 Thes. 1:9). Try substituting the term “annihilation” for “death” in the Revelation passages and see what sort of sense it makes, e.g., “the second annihilation.”

There is absolutely no biblical evidence that “hell” will involve the extermination of either Satan, evil angels, or wicked humans (Mt. 25:41,46; Rev. 14:9-11; 20:10).
Conclusion

The dogma of annihilation is not an innocent view with harmless consequences.

[epignosis]

Re: God HATES Rational Thinking!

No. You have have merely sipped at the fountain of knowledge. The context here, and at each occurrence is essential, as are the Hebrew and Greek words.

The Immortal soul is
πνεῦμα
pneuma
pnyoo'-mah
deriving from a current of air, that is, breath (blast) or a breeze; by analogy or figuratively a spirit, that is, (human) the rational soul, (by implication) vital principle, mental disposition, etc., or (superhuman) an angel, daemon, or (divine) God, Christ’s spirit, the Holy spirit: - ghost, life, spirit (-ual, -ually), mind.

ψυχή
psuchē
psoo-khay'
breath, that is, (by implication) spirit, abstractly or concretely (the animal sentient principle only; thus distinguished on the one hand from pneuma, which is the rational and immortal soul; and on the other from life, which is mere vitality, even of plants: these terms thus exactly correspond respectively to the Hebrew [nephesh], [ruach] and [chay]: - heart (+ -ily), life, mind, soul, + us, + you.

If you have a problem, take it up with Mr Strong and his dictionaries.

The life force psuchē dies, the soul pneuma does not.

The difficulty lies in the fact that the meanings popularly attached to the English word “soul” stem primarily, not from the Hebrew or Christian Greek Scriptures, but from ancient Greek philosophy, actually pagan religious thought. Greek philosopher Plato, for example, quotes Socrates as saying: “The soul, .*.*. if it departs pure, dragging with it nothing of the body, .*.*. goes away into that which is like itself, into the invisible, divine, immortal, and wise, and when it arrives there it is happy, freed from error and folly and fear .*.*. and all the other human ills, and .*.*. lives in truth through all after time with the gods.”—Phaedo, 80, D, E; 81, A.
In direct contrast with the Greek teaching of the psy‧khe′ (soul) as being immaterial, intangible, invisible, and immortal, the Scriptures show that both psy‧khe′ and ne′phesh, as used with reference to earthly creatures, refer to that which is material, tangible, visible, and mortal.
The New Catholic Encyclopedia says: “Nepes [ne′phesh] is a term of far greater extension than our ‘soul,’ signifying life (Ex 21.23; Dt 19.21) and its various vital manifestations: breathing (Gn 35.18; Jb 41.13[21]), blood [Gn 9.4; Dt 12.23; Ps 140(141).8], desire (2 Sm 3.21; Prv 23.2). The soul in the O[ld] T[estament] means not a part of man, but the whole man—man as a living being. Similarly, in the N[ew] T[estament] it signifies human life: the life of an individual, conscious subject (Mt 2.20; 6.25; Lk 12.22-23; 14.26; Jn 10.11, 15,*17; 13.37).”—1967, Vol. XIII, p. 467.

Ne′phesh comes from a root meaning “breathe” and in a literal sense ne′phesh could be rendered as “a breather.” Koehler and Baumgartner’s Lexicon in Veteris Testamenti Libros (Leiden, 1958, p. 627) defines it as: “the breathing substance, making man a[nd] animal living beings Gn 1, 20, the soul (strictly distinct from the greek notion of soul) the seat of which is the blood Gn 9, 4f Lv 17,*11 Dt 12,*23: (249 X) .*.*. soul = living being, individual, person


Jesus died so man could live. The ones that were good in God's eyes before Jesus, like Abraham a Job etc, died. If they had immortality, why did Jesus need to die? They would have lived on no matter what Jesus did. Immortality means you can not die. God can not kill you.
But the bible says man and the animals have the same eventuality, we die.
Saying all have immortality nullifies Jesus death.
Also Jesus was given immortality not until after he died for mankind. He was the first one ever to get immortality. None of the angels have it.

[Ezekiel Bathfire]

Re: God HATES Rational Thinking!

The original-language terms (Heb., ne′phesh [ׁש]; Gr., psy‧khe′ [ψυχή]) as used in the Scriptures show “soul” to be a person, an animal, or the life that a person or an animal enjoys.
Th soul means the life you have.

No. You have have merely sipped at the fountain of knowledge. The context here, and at each occurrence is essential, as are the Hebrew and Greek words.

The Immortal soul is
πνεῦμα
pneuma
pnyoo'-mah
deriving from a current of air, that is, breath (blast) or a breeze; by analogy or figuratively a spirit, that is, (human) the rational soul, (by implication) vital principle, mental disposition, etc., or (superhuman) an angel, daemon, or (divine) God, Christ’s spirit, the Holy spirit: - ghost, life, spirit (-ual, -ually), mind.

ψυχή
psuchē
psoo-khay'
breath, that is, (by implication) spirit, abstractly or concretely (the animal sentient principle only; thus distinguished on the one hand from pneuma, which is the rational and immortal soul; and on the other from life, which is mere vitality, even of plants: these terms thus exactly correspond respectively to the Hebrew [nephesh], [ruach] and [chay]: - heart (+ -ily), life, mind, soul, + us, + you.

If you have a problem, take it up with Mr Strong and his dictionaries.

The life force psuchē dies, the soul pneuma does not.

[epignosis]

Re: God HATES Rational Thinking!

How is that justice friend? That means some atheist like Adolph Hitler or Joesph Stalin or Jimmy Carter can just goes their lives, torturing people and then just dies, that's it, like they expected. It's not like an Atheist is expecting anything but oblivion when they die.

No friend, God is a Loving God so above all there must be eternal damnation.

There is only death. The scriptures tells us that the soul that is sinning dies.
So when people die they have paid the price for sin.
Now if God 'remembers' you , then you will be resurrected. But if he does not, then,you are thrown into the lake of fire ( the second death) which is no resurrection.
Now to humans we wonder why Hitler will not be tortured, but that is man's thoughts. Not God's. Now on the other hand if you die ( which is the price for sin) and God remembers you , you will have a resurrection. So you will get life where Hitler like ones will not. ( though it is not my place to pass judgement on anyone) The reason I say this is because Saul was the foremost persecutors of the followers of Jesus even stoning ones to death. Saul became Paul and became a exceptional apostle.
Even Satan will not be tortured, he also will just be done away with.

[epignosis]

Re: God HATES Rational Thinking!

There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out. (Luke 13:28)

However, there are scriptures that strongly suggest man's continued self-awareness and continued existence after death (Luke 16:19-31; 2 Cor. 5:1-10; Phil. 1:21-23).

Luke 13:23-28 (King James Version)

23Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them,

24Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.

25When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are:

26Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets.

27But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.

28There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.


This a illustration that is being used here to tell ones that believe in Jesus but do not do much about it. The verses are saying many will want to get into the gate but only a few will. The ones that don't are surprised because ( Jesus is the master of the house) Jesus shuts the doors on them. And leaves them out side the gate. So even though these one were around Jesus, they did nothing themselves. So when outside the gates the bible says that is where their weeping and gnashing of teeth will be. Meaning they missed out of the opportunity, of life and are in an anguish over that.

There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out. (Luke 13:28)

This means also that these will 'see' realize, that Abraham and Isaac and Jacob, will be there, you will not. Even though they had the opportunity to be there.

[Bobby-Joe]

Re: God HATES Rational Thinking!

Here again the devil is thrown into the lake of fire, ( which means the second death)this means death that has no resurrection. So the devils torment is that he will be destroyed forever, he will never get a another chance of life.

How is that justice friend? That means some atheist like Adolph Hitler or Joesph Stalin or Jimmy Carter can just goes their lives, torturing people and then just dies, that's it, like they expected. It's not like an Atheist is expecting anything but oblivion when they die.

No friend, God is a Loving God so above all there must be eternal damnation.

[epignosis]

Re: God HATES Rational Thinking!

"And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever," (Rev. 20:10).


You can see that "forever and ever" is a phrase used of the glory of God that will never cease (1 Tim. 1:17; Rev. 5:13). The same phrase is used to speak of the torment of people that will never cease (Rev. 19:3; 20:10; ).

Here again the devil is thrown into the lake of fire, ( which means the second death)this means death that has no resurrection. So the devils torment is that he will be destroyed forever, he will never get a another chance of life.

[epignosis]

Re: God HATES Rational Thinking!

Also, degrees of punishment will be given on the Day of Judgment (Rev. 20:11-15). If all, or only the wicked are annihilated, then degrees of punishment would be pointless.

Revelation 20:11-15 (King James Version)

11And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

12And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

15And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
In verse 12 and 13 says the dead were judged according to their works. We know that the bible says there is no works in death or thinking or anything. So these dead ones were judged, according to the works they did when they were alive.
In 14 death and hell were cast into the lake of fire, which is the second death ( there is not a real lake of fire) so it just means death will be no more. It will be done away with.
The bible tells you here the lake of fire means the second death.

[epignosis]

Re: God HATES Rational Thinking!

This is contradicted by the Bible in Matt. 25:46 which says “And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Eternal punishment is death forever no chance of a resurrection. It is not torture somewhere.

[Meek and Humble]

Re: God HATES Rational Thinking!

Ezekiel 18:4 (King James Version)

4Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

What this is talking about , is that man can kill the body, and you die, that means the soul also, because are a soul. You don't have a a soul as something extra. But they can't take your opportunity of life. If God remembers you there is the resurrection. So you still can live in the future.


The original-language terms (Heb., ne′phesh [ׁש]; Gr., psy‧khe′ [ψυχή]) as used in the Scriptures show “soul” to be a person, an animal, or the life that a person or an animal enjoys.
Th soul means the life you have.

This is contradicted by the Bible in Matt. 25:46 which says “And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Also, degrees of punishment will be given on the Day of Judgment (Rev. 20:11-15). If all, or only the wicked are annihilated, then degrees of punishment would be pointless.

"“And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; and they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name," (Rev. 14:11).


"And a second time they said, "Hallelujah! Her smoke rises up forever and ever" (Rev. 19:3).


"And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever," (Rev. 20:10).


You can see that "forever and ever" is a phrase used of the glory of God that will never cease (1 Tim. 1:17; Rev. 5:13). The same phrase is used to speak of the torment of people that will never cease (Rev. 19:3; 20:10; ).



There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out. (Luke 13:28)

However, there are scriptures that strongly suggest man's continued self-awareness and continued existence after death (Luke 16:19-31; 2 Cor. 5:1-10; Phil. 1:21-23).

Luke 16:19-31

“Now there was a certain rich man, and he habitually dressed in purple and fine linen, gaily living in splendor every day. 20 “And a certain poor man named Lazarus was laid at his gate, covered with sores, 21 and longing to be fed with the crumbs which were falling from the rich man’s table; besides, even the dogs were coming and licking his sores. 22 “Now it came about that the poor man died and he was carried away by the angels to Abraham’s bosom; and the rich man also died and was buried. 23 “And in Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham far away, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 “And he cried out and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue; for I am in agony in this flame.’ 25 “But Abraham said, ‘Child, remember that during your life you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus bad things; but now he is being comforted here, and you are in agony. 26 ‘And besides all this, between us and you there is a great chasm fixed, in order that those who wish to come over from here to you may not be able, and that none may cross over from there to us.’ 27 “And he said, ‘Then I beg you, Father, that you send him to my father’s house— 28 for I have five brothers—that he may warn them, lest they also come to this place of torment.’ 29 “But Abraham *said, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.’ 30 “But he said, ‘No, Father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent!’ 31 “But he said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be persuaded if someone rises from the dead.’"


2 Cor. 5:8

"we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord."

[Bogdana Alkeav]

Re: God HATES Rational Thinking!

I have come across people that have lists of supposed problems with the bible and have answered all so far. My confidence level is very high when it comes to things like this. These come from people who have not done their homework, and spread them around the internet.

So, is the Quran perfect?

[epignosis]

Re: God HATES Rational Thinking!

Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Ezekiel 18:4 (King James Version)

4Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

What this is talking about , is that man can kill the body, and you die, that means the soul also, because are a soul. You don't have a a soul as something extra. But they can't take your opportunity of life. If God remembers you there is the resurrection. So you still can live in the future.


The original-language terms (Heb., ne′phesh [ׁש]; Gr., psy‧khe′ [ψυχή]) as used in the Scriptures show “soul” to be a person, an animal, or the life that a person or an animal enjoys.
Th soul means the life you have.