[epignosis]

Re: God HATES Rational Thinking!

Bogdana
What did you think of that article of the giants though? It is pretty amazing how far the scientists will go to deceive people.

[epignosis]

Re: God HATES Rational Thinking!

The Bible and science are at odds with one another.

Here we can see that the earth is in a fixed position.

Psalm 93:1 The LORD reigneth, he is clothed with majesty; the LORD is clothed with strength, wherewith he hath girded himself: the world also is stablished, that it cannot be moved.

The sun revolves around the earth.

Ecclesiastes 1:5 The sun also ariseth, and the sun goeth down, and hasteth to his place where he arose.

Joshua 10:13 And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed, until the people had avenged themselves upon their enemies. Is not this written in the book of Jasher? So the sun stood still in the midst of heaven, and hasted not to go down about a whole day.

And yes, the earth was created in six days, unless you want to try to say that the Ten Commandments are "symbolic" too. Why did the Jews keep the Sabbath in the first place?

Psalm 93:1 (Young's Literal Translation)

Psalm 93

1Jehovah hath reigned, Excellency He hath put on, Jehovah put on strength, He girded Himself, Also -- established is the world, unmoved.

Psalm 78:69 (King James Version)

69And he built his sanctuary like high palaces, like the earth which he hath established for ever.

Psalm 104:5 (King James Version)

5Who laid the foundations of the earth, that it should not be removed for ever.


This is not talking about the earth moving around the Sun, he is talking about the earth remaining forever .

We use the same term today, we say the sunrise and sunset.


In Joshua 10:13, about the sun and moon standing still, is not impossible with God, for he created it. It is also possible that God used some other method to fool our senses as many people, can do today, with tricks. We are not told how he did that.

I went over the six 'days' or time periods before. God was never limited with our solar system and a 24 hr. day. Even all the creative days are call a day.
They were periods of time that certain thing were created.

The other thing is that when people in those times periods thought the earth was flat. The bible says:

Isaiah 40:22 (King James Version)

22It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:

So the bible is ahead of the prevailing thinking of the people at that time. So how did the writer know that?

If you want to be literal, then in this verse , people are grasshoppers, and the heaven is a curtain and this all lives in a tent.

[BelieverInGod]

Re: God HATES Rational Thinking!

**snip**

Does anyone else find it extremely pathetic that the atheists who hang around here know their Bible better than the so-called Christians?

Perhaps you can both continue this conversation when you meet up in Hell

[Bogdana Alkeav]

Re: God HATES Rational Thinking!

I never mentioned how long it would take God to create some individual animal.
The point is that the science and the bible do not conflict. They are in harmony with each other.

Really? From Genesis 1:

Genesis (1:1-2:3) "In the beginning"
The first of two contradictory creation accounts. Compare with Genesis 2:4-25 in which the order of events is entirely different.

(1:1-2:3) The Genesis 1 account conflicts with the order of events that are known to science. In Genesis 1:1, the earth and "heaven" are created together "in the beginning," whereas according to current estimates, the earth and universe are about 4.6 and 13.7 billion years old, respectively.
In Genesis, the earth is created (1:1) before light (1:3), sun and stars (1:16); birds and whales (1:21) before reptiles and insects (1:24); and flowering plants (1:11) before any animals (1:20). The order of events known from science is in each case just the opposite.



(1:6-8) The Firmament (Heaven)
God spends one-sixth of his entire creative effort (the second day) working on a solid firmament. This strange structure, which God calls heaven, is intended to separate the higher waters from the lower waters.



"Let the earth bring forth grass"
Plants are made on the third day before there was a sun to drive their photosynthetic processes (1:14-19). Notice, though, that God lets "the earth bring forth" the plants, rather than creating them directly. Maybe Genesis is not so anti-evolution after all.


(1:16) "God made the two great lights."
"The greater light [the sun] to rule the day, and the lesser light [the moon] to rule the night." But the moon is not a light; it only reflects light from the sun. And why, if God made the moon to "rule the night", does it spend half of its time moving through the daytime sky?



(1:16) "He made the stars also."
God spends a day making light (before making the sun and stars) and separating light from darkness; then, at the end of a hard day's work, and almost as an afterthought, he makes the trillions of stars.



(1:17) "And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth."
Then why is only a tiny fraction of stars visible from earth? Under the best conditions, no more than a few thousand stars are visible with the unaided eye, yet there are hundreds of billions of stars in our galaxy and a hundred billion or so galaxies. Were they all created "to give light upon the earth"?

As for talking about giants, there is plenty of evidence that giants in the world. Though giants pose a real problem for the stories of the scientists.
Here is a link that tells to what degree the scientists will go to, to deceive people.

Ha, I knew you would bring this up. I'm surprised you didn't mention that they are the children of fallen angels with the women of earth. They all died in the Great Flood, right?

Anyway, thanks for giving us all a very credible source there

Nevermind that you completely missed the point I was trying to make. Science and the Bible don't harmonize. You make them harmonize by ignoring the parts from both science and the Bible that you don't like. Explain to me, how do you know the reason that we see only small life forms from the oldest fossils is because giants ate all the bigger animal's bones?

(http://www.skepdic.com/cardiff.html)

[Pastor William Nathaniel Sampson]

Re: God HATES Rational Thinking!

The point is that the science and the bible do not conflict. They are in harmony with each other.

The Bible and science are at odds with one another.

Here we can see that the earth is in a fixed position.

Psalm 93:1 The LORD reigneth, he is clothed with majesty; the LORD is clothed with strength, wherewith he hath girded himself: the world also is stablished, that it cannot be moved.

The sun revolves around the earth.

Ecclesiastes 1:5 The sun also ariseth, and the sun goeth down, and hasteth to his place where he arose.

Joshua 10:13 And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed, until the people had avenged themselves upon their enemies. Is not this written in the book of Jasher? So the sun stood still in the midst of heaven, and hasted not to go down about a whole day.

And yes, the earth was created in six days, unless you want to try to say that the Ten Commandments are "symbolic" too. Why did the Jews keep the Sabbath in the first place?

[epignosis]

Re: God HATES Rational Thinking!

That was not the tiniest bit rational.

Are you saying God isn't capable of instantly creating the world habitable? God is too weak to make the earth ready for the life he wanted on it right away?

And it's also not rational because you have not used any evidence at all to reach your conclusion. You are just making things up so that it fits into your religion.

There is just as much proof that in fact the earth was created by Zeus and was originally supposed to be the habitat for a race of giants, and the reason we don't find any large bones from olden times is that the giants ate all of them, and then they went to live on the sun and that's why we don't see them anymore. Yes. There is exactly as much proof for that as for what you said.

Of course it is. When you don't understand something, a magic man in the sky did it.

I never mentioned how long it would take God to create some individual animal.
The point is that the science and the bible do not conflict. They are in harmony with each other.

As for talking about giants, there is plenty of evidence that giants in the world. Though giants pose a real problem for the stories of the scientists.
Here is a link that tells to what degree the scientists will go to, to deceive people.

Here is an article I partially quoted:

(reprinted with permission)
Noted Native American author and professor of law emeritus, Vine Deloria, writes in a personal communication:

It's probably better that so few of the ruins and remains were tied in with the Smithsonian because they give good reason to believe the ending of the Indiana Jones movie—a great warehouse where the real secrets of earth history are buried.

Modern day archaeology and anthropology have nearly sealed the door on our imaginations, broadly interpreting the North American past as devoid of anything unusual in the way of great cultures characterized by a people of unusual demeanor. The great interloper of ancient burial grounds, the nineteenth century Smithsonian Institution, created a one-way portal, through which uncounted bones have been spirited. This door and the contents of its vault are virtually sealed off to anyone, but government officials. Among these bones may lay answers not even sought by these officials concerning the deep past.

The first hint we had about the possible existence of an actual race of tall, strong, and intellectually sophisticated people, was in researching old township and county records. Many of these were quoting from old diaries and letters that were combined, for posterity, in the 1800s from diaries going back to the 1700s. Says Vine in this understanding:

Some of these old county and regional history books contain real gems because the people were not subjected to a rigid indoctrination about evolution and were astonished about what they found and honestly reported it.

The title pages of the early county and pioneer history books often included phrases like "CAREFULLY WRITTEN AND COMPILED" and "LEST WE FORGET."

Some time before archaeology came to subscribe the general public to its view of prehistory—generations prior to Darwin's troublesome theory—the pioneers thought that some of the earthworks were as ancient as could be concurrent with human habitation in America. Some among the early settlers exercised their pens assured that the earthworks were not built by the direct ancestry of the native people living in the historical period, but rather were constructed in a more remote era encompassing a different social order. They compared the "Mound Builders," with the "Indians," clearly discerning the former as belonging to an earlier time—possessing a different fate or destiny from the latter.

Evidence for the occupation of this region before the appearance of the red man and the white race is to be found in almost every part of the county, as well as through the northwest generally. In removing the gravel bluffs, which are numerous and deep, for the construction and repair of roads, and in excavating cellars, hundreds of human skeletons, some of them of giant form, have been found. A citizen of Marion County estimates that there were about as many human skeletons in the knolls of Marion County as there are white inhabitants at present!

The History of Marion County, Ohio
(complied from past accounts, published in 1883)

Mastodonic remains are occasionally unearthed, and, from time to time, discoveries of the remains of Indian settlements are indicated by the appearance of gigantic skeletons, with the high cheek bones, powerful jaws and massive frames peculiar of the red man, who left these as the only record with which to form a clew to the history of past ages................

this article continues on

http://www.xpeditionsmagazine.com/magazine/articles/giants/holocaust.html

[Bogdana Alkeav]

Re: God HATES Rational Thinking!

Hi Bogdana



What makes you think he did things instantly? If you think rationally

That was not the tiniest bit rational.

Are you saying God isn't capable of instantly creating the world habitable? God is too weak to make the earth ready for the life he wanted on it right away?

And it's also not rational because you have not used any evidence at all to reach your conclusion. You are just making things up so that it fits into your religion.

There is just as much proof that in fact the earth was created by Zeus and was originally supposed to be the habitat for a race of giants, and the reason we don't find any large bones from olden times is that the giants ate all of them, and then they went to live on the sun and that's why we don't see them anymore. Yes. There is exactly as much proof for that as for what you said.

Creation is all about rational thinking.

Of course it is. When you don't understand something, a magic man in the sky did it.

[epignosis]

Re: God HATES Rational Thinking!

Primate to human

The search from the scientists, to try to link primates to humans has been littered with frauds, great claims of finding the missing links, to those links going out quietly, because they are not linked with humans, to still searching for the missing links.
Is this the scientists, with actually facts ( proof), or is this doing anything they can to try and show their theories correct. But in the end can't. This is 150 years of science pushing this, and still no evidence.

What this really is, is a direct effort to misinform people of where the truth is.

And many have taken the bait, with hook, line and sinker.

2 Corinthians 4:4 (King James Version)

4In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

The god of this world is Satan. Notice it says blinded the people who do not believe, and that don't support God's son Jesus.

It's not that the scientists are stupid, it is that they are blinded. And do not have the ability of rational thought. Of course that is not all scientists, some know that what they are saying is not correct.

[epignosis]

Re: God HATES Rational Thinking!

A record from:

Invertebrates to Fish


Jawless fish to shark


Jawless fish to bony fish


Fish to amphibian


Primitive to modern amphibians


Amphibian to reptile


Early reptile to turtle


Early reptile to diapsid (dinosaurs and modern reptiles except for turtles)


Reptile to mammal


Dinosaur to bird


Primates

Darwinius masillae -- a link between earlier primates and later ones.

Cetaceans

Ambulocetus-- an early whale that looks like a mammalian version of a crocodile
Indohyus -- a proto-whale.
Basilosaurus -- transition from early marine whales (Indohyus) to modern whales
Dorudon -- Another candidate for transition from early whales to modern whales
Zeuglodon -- a whale-like cetacean with vestigial limbs

Primate to human


Transitional plant fossils

Williamsonia -- an early flowering plant ("stem angiosperm").
Check it out, and go to the sources too for more info!

Where is the rational for this?

If I plant a cherry tree I get a cherry tree that produces cherries.
Because there were different plants in history than now, doesn't mean one came from another. That is the circular thinking that the scientists have to come up with because they are pushing the non creator theory ( to try to explain the variety we have.)
Actually today we would see all life in a state of horrendous parts and bits that would be tested out in the real world. But that is not what we see. Also mutations are usually bad for the host, not beneficial, and they do not make a dog something other than a dog.

So where is the scientists evidence, in the real world today?
Where is their reason or rational?

[epignosis]

Re: God HATES Rational Thinking!

Hi Bogdana

I'm sorry, I was under the impression that you thought God was an all-powerful being who could do absolutely anything instantly with no effort whatsoever. Why wouldn't God want to make it even more obvious how wonderful and unique his creation was?

And why did God create the world billions of years ago (as you say) and create all of these creatures to live on the earth and go extinct before mankind was placed on the earth, and why do the animal fossils always seem to be simpler the further back you go?

What makes you think he did things instantly? If you think rationally on this, the earth would have been a barren rocky place. This rock and dust would have to turn into good usable soil. So small plants would be created, but why would he create the same thing all over the earth. So this little plant would start to spread, it may take thousands of years for it to spread all over the earth. But once that little plant got a good foot hold other plants were added in the same way. Also allowed to spread. then grasses, trees etc. This could have taken millions of years to happen. This same process would be for useful for the atmosphere also. Because it would have to be changed also. And as you say the fossils seem simpler the farther the way back you go in time.
As animal types of life would be created, when conditions were suitable for them. Even the symbiotic relationship between some plants and animals.

Now about animals that went extinct. As more and more plants lived and died the soil and atmosphere became better for larger animals. These animals became very large. ( dinosaurs) They would help in cultivating large trees, and when they died they would replenish and enrich the soil. Now to keep these animals in check there were predators and so on. Now this would go on for a long time. And the atmosphere and the soil would be getting better all the time.
But then when their purpose was fulfilled, they died out. It is a good thing they are not still around today. But they did fulfill a purpose.


Creation is all about rational thinking.

[BelieverInGod]

Re: God HATES Rational Thinking!

Scientists didn't even realize that domestic dogs were the same species as wolves until fairly recently.

Besides I thought you fundies were all about "microevolution" to explain how Noah's ark could have happened.

They're not the same species.

Wolf = Canis Lupus
Dog = Canis Familiaris

[epignosis]

Re: God HATES Rational Thinking!

Then why doesn't the Bible say they are periods? Why does the Bible use the literal Hebrew word day? Also, what would be the "day of rest?" The period where no evolution or change is happening?

That is an important part of the bible. It is written in such away that only the ones to he gives it. This is important, because of the different times we live in. Different parts of the prophecies are fulfilled at different times. It is done a need to know basis.

1 Corinthians 2:6-12 (King James Version)

6Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:

7But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

8Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

9But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

10But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
This may be a little difficult for ones maybe not really used the old English. But this is what most of the people like to use. So I use it.
So these verses mention the hidden wisdom. That is hidden from the world,( that means government official's.) Do you notice it said it said that they would not harm Jesus.
In other words Jesus had to fulfil that role of dying for mankind. So if they knew what the scriptures meant they would not have done that. Many of the occurrences, of events back then in bible times also have a meaning for us today , or parallels for us today. So this is also valuable today also. I think this is an extremely cleaver way of doing it. The bible hides the information right under there noses. Within the words that many religions read each day.

[Bogdana Alkeav]

Re: God HATES Rational Thinking!

Hi Bogdana


Abiogenesis, the theory is getting closer to creation all the time. They just haven't figured out the creation part of it yet. You are correct scientist do not know or have any good theories about how life started. The problem is that even a so called simple cell is not simple and it all has to be together before any of it works.

Apparently your reading comprehension skills are low. I said - ONLY A VERY FEW SCIENTISTS ADVOCATE ABIOGENESIS. It has nothing to do with evolution, no matter what your preacher tells you.

none of the researchers have provided scientists with a very satisfying story about how this happened.

Yuhp, you're right. It was the magical man in the sky who did it!

The statement was dogs always produce dogs. In your statement you agreed with that. But there is a large variety of dogs. This comes about from natural means by breeding ,and intelligent means, with a goal in mind. But they are always, dogs. Darwin observation of Finch's reveal, that Finch's are always Finch's . Though adaptability, can play into this , depending on conditions.

Of course that's what Darwin observed. Darwin was only alive for a few decades. Major evolutionary changes of species would require billions of years.

This of course is the opinion from scientists don't even know how life could get started and are just in the infancy of understanding how the world and universe work.

Yes, exactly.

Those are not transitional fossils. they are completed animals. The transitional ones are the ones that have partially formed legs for example. These bits and pieces , placed in wrong area's of the body. Legs coming out of the back , or head or where ever 'Evolution' is not planed, it's a mutation, which means it's a mistake that has to be tried out, to see if it helps the host. So 'evolution' doesn't know it needs 2 eyes the correct distance apart to see depth of field. Now when it comes to an eye for example, the bone structure for another eye has to be in the correct place. But that is totally different than the eye ball and muscles, for the eye it also has to be placed correctly with the bone structure. This also has to be wired for the brain and brain has to know what to do with this. This all had to happen correctly the first time or it is useless.
What all this means is that this should all be in the fossil record. But it is not there. Even Darwin knew this, and said if these transitional fossil were not found , his theory would not stand up.
Today with many more fossils found, there still is no transitional ones. Scientists say they will likely never be found , because these transitional fossils should be in a much larger number than completed animals. And the fossil record should show that percentage now.
The interesting part of this is that what the scientists have found in the fossil record, supports creation, because what you would expect to find in the fossil record is completed animals. That is what is found.

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Transitional_form

A record from:

Invertebrates to Fish


Jawless fish to shark


Jawless fish to bony fish


Fish to amphibian


Primitive to modern amphibians


Amphibian to reptile


Early reptile to turtle


Early reptile to diapsid (dinosaurs and modern reptiles except for turtles)


Reptile to mammal


Dinosaur to bird


Primates

• Darwinius masillae -- a link between earlier primates and later ones.

Cetaceans

• Ambulocetus-- an early whale that looks like a mammalian version of a crocodile
• Indohyus -- a proto-whale.
• Basilosaurus -- transition from early marine whales (Indohyus) to modern whales
• Dorudon -- Another candidate for transition from early whales to modern whales
• Zeuglodon -- a whale-like cetacean with vestigial limbs

Primate to human


Transitional plant fossils

• Williamsonia -- an early flowering plant ("stem angiosperm").

Check it out, and go to the sources too for more info!

Something else should be noted. If you are a creator and you are going to create millions of animals and many of them with very similar traits, would you not use DNA make an animal and make a slight change and make another? ( scientists do that with computer programs now) Why would you start over from scratch, for each animal?

I'm sorry, I was under the impression that you thought God was an all-powerful being who could do absolutely anything instantly with no effort whatsoever. Why wouldn't God want to make it even more obvious how wonderful and unique his creation was?

And why did God create the world billions of years ago (as you say) and create all of these creatures to live on the earth and go extinct before mankind was placed on the earth, and why do the animal fossils always seem to be simpler the further back you go?

[Katander]

Re: God HATES Rational Thinking!

And why should He. He is God, He can do whatever He pleases.

You are very right sir. Thats why its useless to argue religion with non rational thinkers, cause in the end that is the their final justification, "God does what he pleases" end of story.

[Samuel Coleridge]

Re: God HATES Rational Thinking!

I went over this in one of the treads, but the bible says in the
beginning God created the heavens and earth. This was before any of the creative days.
No time barrier here.
Also the creative 'days' were time periods, they were just ages when most of that type of creation was done.
There is no conflict with the scientists guess what the time is for all the universe.

Then why doesn't the Bible say they are periods? Why does the Bible use the literal Hebrew word day? Also, what would be the "day of rest?" The period where no evolution or change is happening?