[Meek and Humble]

Re: God HATES Rational Thinking!

And torment that is mentioned.Can be compared to the words we use today.
If a man has died and he has a son that is causing problems, and brings a bad name on his family. People say today, 'his father would roll over in his grave if he knew what his son is doing." We take that to mean that the father is not alive, but if he was alive he would be tormented, by the actions of his son.

A preposterous interpretation that you put forth just because you dislike what the Bible says. It's a pity.

[epignosis]

Re: God HATES Rational Thinking!

Our body is dust, our soul was breathed into us. Two separate things.

Ezekiel 18:4 (King James Version)

4Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.
The soul is not something other than the body. If the body dies there is nothing that continues on.


The Jewish Publication Society of America issued a new translation of the Torah, or first five books of the Bible, the editor-in-chief, H.*M. Orlinsky of Hebrew Union College, stated that the word “soul” had been virtually eliminated from this translation because, “the Hebrew word in question here is ‘Nefesh.’” He added: “Other translators have interpreted it to mean ‘soul,’ which is completely inaccurate. The Bible does not say we have a soul. ‘Nefesh’ is the person himself, his need for food, the very blood in his veins, his being.”—The New York Times, October 12, 1962.

The difficulty lies in the fact that the meanings popularly attached to the English word “soul” stem primarily, not from the Hebrew or Christian Greek Scriptures, but from ancient Greek philosophy, actually pagan religious thought. Greek philosopher Plato, for example, quotes Socrates as saying: “The soul, .*.*. if it departs pure, dragging with it nothing of the body, .*.*. goes away into that which is like itself, into the invisible, divine, immortal, and wise, and when it arrives there it is happy, freed from error and folly and fear .*.*. and all the other human ills, and .*.*. lives in truth through all after time with the gods.”—Phaedo, 80, D, E; 81, A.


The teaching that the soul lives on, comes from pagan worship, and has infiltrated Christianity.

[epignosis]

Re: God HATES Rational Thinking!

If Angels can be destroyed, why didn't God destroy Satan and the fallen angels? When in the Bible is an angel destroyed?

The reason that God did not destroy Satan and his angels, was because he was the ruler of the earth, and God had appointed him until the end of the rest day. Also Satan raised the issue, that men will only stay loyal to God for what they can get out of him. So Satan said that if a man is in fear of losing his life he will abandon God. ( that is the account at Job.) Even some angels followed Satan, this shows this is also an issue with the angels.
Armageddon is the battle between God and Satan where he is held in bondage for the 1,000 years.


Revelation 20:1-3 (King James Version)

Revelation 20

1And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

2And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

3And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.


Armageddon is the battle with Satan where he is bound for a thousand years.


Revelation 20:7-10 (King James Version)

7And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

8And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

9And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

10And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

The bible told us the lake of fire, was the second death. Which means totally destroyed , no longer in existence.
So God is going to kill Satan and his followers, the angels and humans. So that they no longer exists

And torment that is mentioned.Can be compared to the words we use today.
If a man has died and he has a son that is causing problems, and brings a bad name on his family. People say today, 'his father would roll over in his grave if he knew what his son is doing." We take that to mean that the father is not alive, but if he was alive he would be tormented, by the actions of his son.

[Meek and Humble]

Re: God HATES Rational Thinking!

Yes we are make of the dust of the ground, and we return to dust when we die.

Genesis 2:7 (King James Version)

7And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
We are made from the dust of the ground, and we became a living soul. We were not given a soul we are a soul.

Our body is dust, our soul was breathed into us. Two separate things.

So when we die that is it. Nothing lives on.

Again?

Acts 24:15 and I have the same hope in God as these men, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.

Daniel 12:2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.

Matthew 25:46 "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

John 5:28 "Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice

John 5:29 and come out--those who have done good will rise to live, and those who have done evil will rise to be condemned.

Ecclesiastes 3:19 (King James Version)

19For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.

Death comes upon all God's creatures; in this manner, we are all alike. However, Solomon makes a distinction just a few verses later, asking, "Who knows the spirit of the sons of men, which goes upward, and the spirit of the animal, which goes down to the earth?" (Ecclesiastes 3: 21)

This verse simply states that like animals, humans die. It doesn't say that it is final.

The reader interested in the context of a verse will quickly note the deathblow to the argument you make in Ecclesiastes 3:21. How on earth the you can rank these verses under “Yes, death is final” is beyond my limited brainpower. Solomon makes the opposite argument actually. He argues that both man and beast die, no difference here. But what is not seen is the difference: a beast has no eternal soul, his spirit dies with him. But the soul of man goes upward to meet his Maker. Because everyone will have to give account, Ecclesiastes 12:14. And it is clear it does not happen in this life, but it will happen says Solomon, when the soul of man goes upward.

This is telling us and it agrees with the scriptures I mentioned earlier about the condition of the dead. That man and animals are the same in death. Non existence.

No, wrong again.

Luke 12:5 But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.

Matthew 5:22 But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to his brother, 'Raca,' is answerable to the Sanhedrin. But anyone who says, 'You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell.

Matthew 10:28 Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

[epignosis]

Re: God HATES Rational Thinking!

Revelation 20: 15And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Do you remember when I said the bible interprets itself.
Well ...this is one of those times. The bible tells us that the lake of fire is the second death. And the bible also told us what death is. ( no thinking no knowledge, we are the same as the animals.) There is no soul that lives on. The only chance we have after we die, is that if God remembers us and he resurrects us. If he doesn't remember us , then we stay dead. ( no life) (The second death)

[epignosis]

Re: God HATES Rational Thinking!

I am going to reply to this misleading post simply because it is so misleading.

You seem to think that "return to dust" means "turning into dust". Unless you are a foreigner, there is no excuse for this misunderstanding.

"and unto dust shalt thou return." simply says that we will be buried in the earth from which we were made, i.e. dust.

There are no contradictions in the Bible.

Yes we are make of the dust of the ground, and we return to dust when we die.

Genesis 2:7 (King James Version)

7And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
We are made from the dust of the ground, and we became a living soul. We were not given a soul we are a soul.

So when we die that is it. Nothing lives on.

Ecclesiastes 3:19 (King James Version)

19For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.

This is telling us and it agrees with the scriptures I mentioned earlier about the condition of the dead. That man and animals are the same in death. Non existence.

[epignosis]

Re: God HATES Rational Thinking!

Yes, but you are not sufficiently spiritually high to be trusted with such an awesome power.
I bet you get paint everywhere. Are you in an institution? Do you also do cutting out paper?

Ha Ha yes that could be true. I mostly do digital art these days. On the computer. So I have 2 to 3 programs opened for painting at one time.
Then for the bible stuff I have about 2 or 3 programs.
Short attention span I guess. Jumping from one to another.

[Meek and Humble]

Re: God HATES Rational Thinking!

Revelation 20:14 (King James Version)

14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Hell was emptied out, the place where the spirits of the dead who did not go to the bosom of Abraham went. At the end of time, all the spirits return to their bodies, the good and the evil alike. The wicked will then be cast into the lake of fire, to be tortured forever. They will never die. Death has been destroyed.

Revelation 20: 15And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.


This states quite clearly that the evil people themselves will be thrown into the fire.



Revelation 21: 8But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.



They aren't just dead. They are in a lake of fire and brimstone.

No chance of a resurrection, either to the heavens ruling with Jesus, or as the subjects of that rule, the ones resurrected to the earth.

Actually, the Bible clearly says that everyone will be resurrected, both the saved and the damned.

John 5:28 "Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice

Daniel 12:2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.

Acts 24:15 and I have the same hope in God as these men, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.

Besides spirit creatures would not be affected by a literal fire.

No. That's why Jesus is going to physically resurrect them.

Ecclesiastes 9:5 (King James Version)

5For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten

The dead know nothing and do nothing, where? "Under the sun" (Ecclesiastes 9: 6). The dead are no longer engaged in earthly things. However, they await the resurrection from the dead.The verse is trying to convey the vanity of materialism. Sort of like the modern day expression "You can't take it with you." It doesn't imply that death is final in the sense of there not being a resurrection.

The book is talking about the vanity of an ungodly life as temporal.

The author of Ecclesiastes explicitly addresses the subject of what happens after this life, see Ecclesiastes 11:9. So the meaning of “dead people” cannot be the souls of the dead people. But Solomon refers here to their dead bodies which lie in the grave.

http://www.tektonics.org/lp/nopass.html

Revelation 20:10 (King James Version)

10And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

There is no point of Satan being cast into the lake of fire, ( many people believe that Satan is going to torment, people after death, in 'Hell' ( with fire).
But this scripture says Satan will be cast into the lake of fire. That is not rational. So all this means, is that Satan will be destroyed for ever.

Why is that not rational? Why should God punish Satan? Read what it says. It does not say Satan is destroyed. It says Satan will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

The angels do not have immortality. They can be destroyed.

If Angels can be destroyed, why didn't God destroy Satan and the fallen angels? When in the Bible is an angel destroyed?

Even Jesus did not gain immortality until after he died on the stake, and was resurrected to heaven.

Actually, Jesus spent the three days of his physical death in hell.

1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit. 19 After being made alive, he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits— 20 to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, 21 and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who has gone into heaven and is at God’s right hand—with angels, authorities and powers in submission to him.

Who are these imprisoned spirits Jesus made proclamation to? These are people of the past who were evil, even the disobedient people from the time of Noah. How could Jesus appear to these people if their spirits were not existing somewhere?

The word “hell” originally conveyed no thought of heat or torment but simply of a ‘covered over or concealed place.’ In the old English dialect the expression “helling potatoes” meant, not to roast them, but simply to place the potatoes in the ground or in a cellar
The meaning of the word 'hell' has been corrupted over the years.

This would have a point if the Bible was originally written in English. It wasn't. The Bible makes it clear that the wicked will face eternal fire.

Isaiah 50:11 But now, all you who light fires and provide yourselves with flaming torches, go, walk in the light of your fires and of the torches you have set ablaze. This is what you shall receive from my hand: You will lie down in torment.

James 3:6 The tongue also is a fire, a world of evil among the parts of the body. It corrupts the whole person, sets the whole course of his life on fire, and is itself set on fire by hell.

[Ezekiel Bathfire]

Re: God HATES Rational Thinking!

Genesis 3:19 (King James Version)

19In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

The bible says we return to the dust.

I am going to reply to this misleading post simply because it is so misleading.

You seem to think that "return to dust" means "turning into dust". Unless you are a foreigner, there is no excuse for this misunderstanding.

"and unto dust shalt thou return." simply says that we will be buried in the earth from which we were made, i.e. dust.

There are no contradictions in the Bible.

[Ezekiel Bathfire]

Re: God HATES Rational Thinking!

I have a question is there anyway I can edit a post after I have sent it?

Yes, but you are not sufficiently spiritually high to be trusted with such an awesome power.

( I'm an artist, and I'm writing and doing painting at the same time.)

I bet you get paint everywhere. Are you in an institution? Do you also do cutting out paper?

[epignosis]

Re: God HATES Rational Thinking!

I have a question is there anyway I can edit a post after I have sent it?
I put my head down and type away, but I don't proof read them enough. I know I should, but I am doing work ( I'm an artist, and I'm writing and doing painting at the same time.)

[epignosis]

Re: God HATES Rational Thinking!

No, they are not contradictory. Because the verses you post are talking about the fate of the mortal body. The Bible makes it clear people do not stay in the grave, neither the good nor the wicked, and that eternal torment is their destiny. Why are you calling the Bible contradictory. God doesn't like that

Actually I was asking you the question does the bible contradict itself? I never claimed that.
The understanding of the scriptures can be contradictory, if you don't have the correct understanding.
So it is the understanding that has to be clarified.
The bible is very rational. That is why to can trust it.

[epignosis]

Re: God HATES Rational Thinking!

If there is no hell fire, why did Our Lord Jesus Christ refer to it, as recorded in Matthew 5:22, Matthew 18:9, and Mark 9:47? Also, what is the lake of fire mentioned four times in Revelation?

Revelation 20:14 (King James Version)

14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

So the lake of fire means the second death. If you also noticed that hell and death are thrown into the lake of fire. So if Hell is a place of fiery torment, what sense would it make to pitch it into a lake of fire. And how do you pitch death into a lake of fire?
So what the lake of fire is, as the scripture says, is 'the second death'. The meaning of the second death, is destroyed forever.
We all are sinful and we die. that was caused by Adams sin. But the second death, is our failure , after knowing the truth, turning our backs on it. There is no forgiveness for that, so those ones receive the second death. No chance of a resurrection, either to the heavens ruling with Jesus, or as the subjects of that rule, the ones resurrected to the earth.
Besides spirit creatures would not be affected by a literal fire.


Ecclesiastes 9:5 (King James Version)

5For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten


Revelation 20:10 (King James Version)

10And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

There is no point of Satan being cast into the lake of fire, ( many people believe that Satan is going to torment, people after death, in 'Hell' ( with fire).
But this scripture says Satan will be cast into the lake of fire. That is not rational. So all this means, is that Satan will be destroyed for ever.
The angels do not have immortality. They can be destroyed.
Even Jesus did not gain immortality until after he died on the stake, and was resurrected to heaven.
The word “hell” originally conveyed no thought of heat or torment but simply of a ‘covered over or concealed place.’ In the old English dialect the expression “helling potatoes” meant, not to roast them, but simply to place the potatoes in the ground or in a cellar
The meaning of the word 'hell' has been corrupted over the years.

[Meek and Humble]

Re: God HATES Rational Thinking!

Genesis 3:19 (King James Version)

19In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

The bible says we return to the dust.

Our bodies do. But it also says we do not remain in the grave.

Daniel 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame [and] everlasting contempt.

Matthew 25:46 "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

John 5:28 "Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice

John 5:29 and come out--those who have done good will rise to live, and those who have done evil will rise to be condemned.

Acts 24:15 and I have the same hope in God as these men, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.

Isaiah 66:24 "And they will go out and look upon the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; their worm will not die, nor will their fire be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind."

Ecclesiastes 9:10 (King James Version)

10Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.

Ecclesiastes is a book talking about how everything in the mortal world is vain because it passes away. He is talking only about the things of the mortal world. He does not suggest there is no afterlife.

The dead know nothing and do nothing, where? "Under the sun" (v 6). The dead are no longer engaged in earthly things. However, they await the resurrection from the dead.

Again, the subject is dead bodies. They do not work. The subject of the souls of the dead is addressed in chapter 11:9.

Ecclesiastes 11:9 Rejoice, O young man, in thy youth; and let thy heart cheer thee in the days of thy youth, and walk in the ways of thine heart, and in the sight of thine eyes: but know thou, that for all these things God will bring thee into judgment.



The end is certain, but death is not the final thing. Solomon continues in the next verse: “but know thou, that for all these things God will bring thee into judgment.” And to confirm his words, Solomon continues in the next verse with: “remove sorrow from thy heart, and put away evil from thy flesh,” because that is what “walk in the ways of thine heart, and in the sight of thine eyes” will be, both in this life and in the life after.

So the question is, are these scriptures contradictions, of the ones you posted? Because these ones say, when you are dead you have no thoughts, and that you go back to the dust.
It is pointless to torture some one that doesn't even know he is being tortured.

No, they are not contradictory. Because the verses you post are talking about the fate of the mortal body. The Bible makes it clear people do not stay in the grave, neither the good nor the wicked, and that eternal torment is their destiny. Why are you calling the Bible contradictory. God doesn't like that

James 3:6 And the tongue [is] a fire, a world of iniquity: so is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of hell.

Isaiah 50:11 But now, all you who light fires and provide yourselves with flaming torches, go, walk in the light of your fires and of the torches you have set ablaze. This is what you shall receive from my hand: You will lie down in torment.

Matthew 5:22 But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to his brother, 'Raca,' is answerable to the Sanhedrin. But anyone who says, 'You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell.

[epignosis]

Re: God HATES Rational Thinking!

Wrong. Matthew 25:46 ->


Matthew 25: 46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Jesus says the punishment of the wicked is everlasting. The Greek word here is aionian, which is used by Jesus in the verse right before to talk about heaven, eternal life.

And they don't just die, they are tortured, forever.

Matthew 5:22, Matthew 18:9, and Mark 9:47

Daniel 12:2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt. (People do not stay in the grave).

John 5:29 and come out--those who have done good will rise to live, and those who have done evil will rise to be condemned. (Nobody remains in the grave)

Acts 24:15 and I have the same hope in God as these men, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked. (Nobody remains in the grave)

Mark 9:43 If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out. (the fire of hell is eternal)

Luke 12:5 But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after the killing of the body, has power to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him. (This shows us that death and hell are not the same thing. It would be better if you just die. But Jesus says the wicked go to hell, also)

James 3:6 The tongue also is a fire, a world of evil among the parts of the body. It corrupts the whole person, sets the whole course of his life on fire, and is itself set on fire by hell. (The wicked are punished in fire after they

Genesis 3:19 (King James Version)

19In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

The bible says we return to the dust.



Ecclesiastes 9:10 (King James Version)

10Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.

Psalm 146:4 (King James Version)

4His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.

Ezekiel 18:4 (King James Version)

4Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.


So the question is, are these scriptures contradictions, of the ones you posted? Because these ones say, when you are dead you have no thoughts, and that you go back to the dust.
It is pointless to torture some one that doesn't even know he is being tortured.