[Rev. Jim Osborne]

Re: I am Catholic.

John 6:50-69
Matthew 26:26 - "Take and eat, this is my body."
Mark 14:22, 24 - "This is my body ... This is my blood of the covenant."
Luke 22:19-20 - "This is my body, which will be given for you ... new covenant in my blood"

1 Corinthians 10:16 - (In the Eucharist, we participate in the Body and Blood of Christ)
1 Corinthians 11:24 - "This is my body that is for you. Do this in remembrance of me."

If you need more lemme know

Nowhere do these Bible verses support the papist idea of transubstation where the priest serving the bread and wine transforms it into the blood and body of Christ.

Wisdom 3:1-6 - the souls of the just are in the hand of God
Mark 12:26-27 - he is the God of the living, not of the dead
Mark 9:4 - Jesus seen conversing with Elijah and Moses
Luke 16:19-30 - departed rich man intercedes for brothers
Luke 23:43 - To the thief on the Cross: "this day you will be with me in paradise"
Hebrews 12:1 - we are surrounded by a cloud of witnesses
Revelation 6:9-11 - martyrs under the altar want earthly vindication
Revelation 20:4 - saw the souls of those that had been beheaded

If you consider the book of Wisdom as "extra" then I'm sorry cuz you're missing out However, even if you don't this should be enough as far as scriptural references go.

Would you say we are "missing out" by not accepting the Quran as well?

Tobit 12:12 - angel presents Tobit and Sarah's prayer to God
Romans 15:30 - join me by your prayers to God on my behalf
Ephesians 4:3 - pray for us
Ephesians 6:18-19 - Never get tired of staying awake to pray for all God's holy people, and pray for me to be given an opportunity to open my mouth and fearlessly make known the mystery of the gospel
2 Thessalonians 1:11 - we always pray for you
2 Thessalonians 3:1 - finally, brothers, pray for us
Revelation 5:8 - angel offers prayers of the holy ones to God

There is nothing wrong with having other people pray for you. But, the Bible makes it clear that only through Christ should we pray and not to saints or Mary.

1st Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

1 John 5:16-17 - Distinction made between deadly sins and one that are not deadly.


Some sins cannot be prayed for. These deadly or "mortal" sins can only be forgiven through the sacrement of reconciliation initiated by Christ.

But where does it explain which sins are "mortal" and which are "venial"? That is a papist invention.

Church is the extension of Christ's incarnation, and that extension takes place through the sacraments" (Scott Hahn , Swear to God, Page 22)

Jesus continues his example of priestly forgiveness in the Old Testament.

Leviticus 4:13-21 - "priests shall make atonement for them, and they will be forgiven"
Leviticus 5:14-26 - (Sin offering brought to the Old Testament priests, who make atonement for sinners' forgiveness.)
See also: - Leviticus 4:27-25, Leviticus 5:5, Numbers 5:8

Only Christ can forgive, not priests.

Confession is not a private affair in the Bible.

Leviticus 5:14-26 - (Public confession with animal sacrifice)
Numbers 5:6-7 - "man ... commits a fault ... he shall confess the wrong he has done"
Matthew 3:6 - "baptized by him ... as they acknowledged their sins"
Acts 19:18 - "believers came forward and openly acknowledged their former practices"
James 5:16 - "confess your sin to one another ... that you may be healed."
See also: - Leviticus 26:39-42, Psalms 32:3-5, Proverbs 28:13, Mark 1:5

Of course one must repent of their sins to accept Christ, but nowhere is any authority given to the Catholic Church to hold a monopoly on this.

Jesus has power to forgive sins.

Matthew 9:1-8 - (Healing of paralytic - "which is easier to say your sins are forgiven or ...") Son of Man has the authority to forgive sins
Mark 2:10 - (Jesus says the Son of Man has authority to forgive sins on earth)
Luke 7:48 - "He said to her, 'Your sins are forgiven.'"
1 John 5:16 - there is sin that is not deadly
See also: - Acts 2:38, 1 Johns 1:9

We know Jesus forgives everything, except for blasphemy of the Holy Ghost.

Mark 3:28 Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme:
Mark 3:29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation:

Jesus gives his power to forgive sins to His priests

Matthew 16:19 - (Jesus gives the apostles the power to bind and loose sins)
Matthew 18:18 - whatever you bind and loose on earth, so it is in heaven
John 20:22 - If you forgive anyone’s sins, they are forgiven; if you retain anyone’s sins, they are retained.
John 20:23 - After saying this he breathed on them and said: Receive the Holy Spirit. (recall Genesis 2:7)

2 Corinthians 5:17-20 - "God ... has reconciled us to himself ... given us the ministry of reconciliation"
James 5:14-15 - "presbyters of the church ... pray over him ... he will be forgiven" (prayer of presbyters forgives sin)
See also: - Luke 22:29-30, James 5:16

What you are confusing here is what Jesus granted his apostles and what the Catholic church has erroneously tried to claim. It is obvious the Catholic Church is not the church that Jesus Christ built, but rather a perversion. Even if you claim direct apostle succession from Peter, read a bit further into Matthew 16 to see what Jesus has to say about Peter...

23But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

[Ezekiel Bathfire]

Re: I am Catholic.

[...]Maybe even throw in some genuine Christian Love?

and where will you get that from being as you are not Christian?

John 6:50-69
Matthew 26:26 - "Take and eat, this is my body."
Mark 14:22, 24 - "This is my body ... This is my blood of the covenant."
Luke 22:19-20 - "This is my body, which will be given for you ... new covenant in my blood"

1 Corinthians 10:16 - (In the Eucharist, we participate in the Body and Blood of Christ)
1 Corinthians 11:24 - "This is my body that is for you. Do this in remembrance of me."

Does it not occur to you that you have been misled? Does it never strike you that when Jesus said, “Do this in remembrance of me.”, that is what He meant?
Imagine Mrs. Bathfire makes a pie – she presents the pie and says, “Ezekiel, when I am with Jesus in heaven, every now and again, eat a pie, and think of me as you do it. The crust is my resilience, the fruit is my love.” Obviously, it is symbolic – not real!!!

If you are a sinner who defiles everything that God has made holy, do you honestly think that praying to some dead guys who is only "saints because your church declared them as such, is going to make any difference?

[a list of irrelevancies deleted]

You have still not explained how you know who is in heaven and why you think man made saints are guaranteed a place there. Can you tell me how anyone on earth knows God’s judgment?

Yes. I believe in the power of prayer. So tell me why I would NOT ask someone to pray for me. Have you never done such?

You are as slippery as an eel and as mendacious as the Father of Lies! The questions are,

“(i)Why do you need a dead person to pray FOR you,
(ii) why is some dead bint more important than you in the Eyes of God The Father?”
(iii) “ Have you read, Ecclesiastes 9:5-6 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any [thing] that is done under the sun.

I’ve lost interest in your warped beliefs that deny all that God teaches and serve only the ends of the vicar of Rome and his satanic minions.

PS don't come here trying to alter our firm and Godly approach to the errant posters, (i) you are a guest, (ii) We cannot be guilt-tripped as we, unlike Catlix, have not been brainwashed!

[Catholic - Not Christian]

Re: I am Catholic.

Nowhere do these Bible verses support the papist idea of transubstation where the priest serving the bread and wine transforms it into the blood and body of Christ.

As I said, I don't intend to convince you to see the Bible my way. Rather only to understand Catholic interpretations. We interpret these passages as literal.

To me, the directions Christ gives are quite simple:

1. Take this and it eat it. (Thus, we take this and eat it)

2. This is my body. (Thus, this is his body)

3. Do THIS in memory of me. (Thus, we do THIS in memory of Him)

Note that Jesus did not say: This is LIKE my body, REPRESENTS my body, or is a SYMBOL of my body. IS my body. So, I believe that this IS His body, because well, that's what he said...

Why do we interpret this literally? GOOD QUESTION!! and i'll be delighted to answer!

The problem here is that he said "do this", and just before he said "Take and eat, this is my body" (Matthew 26:26) This to me means basically that this is his body. Because that's what he says. In fact, it is the same in Matthew, Mark, and Luke. (I can explain John if you'd like but I'm sure you know where the bread of life colloquy is found)

Nowhere does it explain or refer or even suggest that Jesus did not change the bread into his body. Thus, when Jesus says to "do this" he means to "do this", to change bread into his body, just as he did.

Why he would say "Take and eat, this is my body." If he didn't want us to take and eat because this is his body?

However, the most concrete answer I can give lies elsewhere in the Bible. Surely you will agree that back in the time of Christ, if you were to talk SYMBOLICALLY about eating a man's flesh and drinking his blood, it meant to physically assault that man. Please see:

Psalms 27:2; Isaiah 49:26; Micah 3:3; 2 Samuel 23:15-17; Revelation 17:6, 16

Do you really think Christ intended for us all to beat him to a pulp? And more specifically, at the last supper, do you think wanted all his apostles to attack him? Confused? I would be. Your interpretation doesn't even make sense.

I'll explain further with John 6:50-69, which states,
{This is the bread that comes down from heaven so that one may eat it and not die. I am the living bread that came down from heaven; whoever eats this bread will live forever; and the bread that I will give is my flesh for the life of the world." The Jews quarreled among themselves, saying, "How can this man give us (his) flesh to eat?" Jesus said to them, "Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day. For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in him. Just as the living Father sent me and I have life because of the Father, so also the one who feeds on me will have life because of me. This is the bread that came down from heaven. Unlike your ancestors who ate and still died, whoever eats this bread will live forever." These things he said while teaching in the synagogue in Capernaum. Then many of his disciples who were listening said, "This saying is hard; who can accept it?" Since Jesus knew that his disciples were murmuring about this, he said to them, "Does this shock you? What if you were to see the Son of Man ascending to where he was before? It is the spirit that gives life, while the flesh is of no avail. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and life." {See note} But there are some of you who do not believe." Jesus knew from the beginning the ones who would not believe and the one who would betray him. And he said, "For this reason I have told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by my Father." As a result of this, many (of) his disciples returned to their former way of life and no longer accompanied him. Jesus then said to the Twelve, "Do you also want to leave?" Simon Peter answered him, "Master, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. We have come to believe and are convinced that you are the Holy One of God."}
Note 1: - Verse 62-63 states "Does this shock you? What if you were to see the Son of Man ascending to where he was before? It is the spirit that gives life, while the flesh is of no avail. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and life."

What Our Lord says here is not intended a Maldonatus thought, to increase the scandal, but to rectify what was simply a cannibalistic interpretation of what he has just said. The Ascension will perhaps surprise the recalcitrants more, but it will eliminate the chief difficulty about eating the flesh of One who in celestial glory takes his place where he was from eternity.

Note 2: - Notice that the close followers of Our Lord, the "disciples" LEFT HIM because this was a hard saying. Then Our Lord asks Peter if he will leave him too. Peter representing the 12 apostles says: "Master, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. WE HAVE COME TO BELIEVE (John 6:69)". My personal note to my separated brethren: Come join us and BELIEVE!

Would you say we are "missing out" by not accepting the Quran as well?

Now, now. I understand that you don't see the book of Wisdom as inspired scripture. Did you read the other verses at all? Or did you see Wisdom and stop and shout "Blashphemy!"? Please, you will find ample evidence for the intercession of Saints without this quote from Wisdom. Let's stay on subject.

There is nothing wrong with having other people pray for you. But, the Bible makes it clear that only through Christ should we pray and not to saints or Mary.

1st Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Is this quote from First Timothy supposed to convince me not to pray to Saints? By praying to a Saint, they are no more acting as mediator than I would should you ask me to pray for you. Perhaps I misunderstand however, and you could explain further.

But where does it explain which sins are "mortal" and which are "venial"? That is a papist invention.

Lol. This is not the point. We are not discussing the papacy here. PLEASE, stay on subject. We are dicussing how I seek forgivness for a "deadly" sin if I cannot simply pray and ask God forgiveness? I think I must go to a priest. What do YOU think?

However, out of curiosity, what do YOU think these deadly sins are?

Only Christ can forgive, not priests.

Hmm, that's not what the Bible says. Why do you deny it? Ill post the verses again:

Church is the extension of Christ's incarnation, and that extension takes place through the sacraments" (Scott Hahn , Swear to God, Page 22)

Jesus continues his example of priestly forgiveness in the Old Testament. Leviticus 4:13-21 - "priests shall make atonement for them, and they will be forgiven"
Leviticus 5:14-26 - (Sin offering brought to the Old Testament priests, who make atonement for sinners' forgiveness.)
See also: - Leviticus 4:27-25, Leviticus 5:5, Numbers 5:8

Of course one must repent of their sins to accept Christ, but nowhere is any authority given to the Catholic Church to hold a monopoly on this.

Hmm, well that's not what the Bible says either! What about the verses I gave you? When Jesus said, "If you forgive anyone’s sins, they are forgiven; if you retain anyone’s sins, they are retained." What exactly did he mean if he was NOT saying that if they forgive anyone's sins, they are forgiven? I'll post these again too:

Jesus gives his power to forgive sins to His priests

Matthew 16:19 - (Jesus gives the apostles the power to bind and loose sins)
Matthew 18:18 - whatever you bind and loose on earth, so it is in heaven
John 20:22 - If you forgive anyone’s sins, they are forgiven; if you retain anyone’s sins, they are retained.
John 20:23 - After saying this he breathed on them and said: Receive the Holy Spirit. (recall Genesis 2:7)

2 Corinthians 5:17-20 - "God ... has reconciled us to himself ... given us the ministry of reconciliation"
James 5:14-15 - "presbyters of the church ... pray over him ... he will be forgiven" (prayer of presbyters forgives sin)
See also: - Luke 22:29-30, James 5:16

We know Jesus forgives everything, except for blasphemy of the Holy Ghost.

Mark 3:28 Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme:
Mark 3:29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation:

Agreed

What you are confusing here is what Jesus granted his apostles and what the Catholic church has erroneously tried to claim. It is obvious the Catholic Church is not the church that Jesus Christ built, but rather a perversion.

So you say that only the Apostles alone had the power to forgive sins and that Jesus did not intend for that power to be passed on through Apostolic Succession?

Why would he do this? Do you think he's just rewarding them for good behavior or something? "John, you have been a good Apostle. Here, have the power to forgive sins!"

Uh, I don't think so... I believe that Jesus would have intended for his forgiveness to last for all time. Not the duration of the apostles' lives.

If I have misinterpreted your post, please correct me.

Even if you claim direct apostle succession from Peter, read a bit further into Matthew 16 to see what Jesus has to say about Peter...

23But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

Ok so what are you saying here? Here's what I see in this passage:

Satan was working in Peter here, tempting him to think of the flesh. And Peter gave in and exclaimed his fear to Jesus. And Jesus rebuked him saying not to cling to the flesh for we are of the spirit.

This is however, no reason not to believe that Peter was the first pope and founded the Church. Everyone gives into temptation for we are all human and all sin. Even Peter.

But pretending for a moment that I should not follow Peter as you claim, then why do you have the letters of Peter in your Bible? If he is Satan, as you say, why is his word inspired scripture?

I pray for you all,

Catholic - Christian

[Catholic - Not Christian]

Re: I am Catholic.

and where will you get that from being as you are not Christian?

I am Christian. But if what I receive here is "True Christian" Love, I'm sure I want any of it. Why so hostel? Even if I was an unsaved blasphemer, wouldn't a real Christian reach out to me in love and seek to bring me to Christ. You should read some about the saints and try to model yourself after them. You would grow temendously.

Does it not occur to you that you have been misled? Does it never strike you that when Jesus said, “Do this in remembrance of me.”, that is what He meant? Imagine Mrs. Bathfire makes a pie – she presents the pie and says, “Ezekiel, when I am with Jesus in heaven, every now and again, eat a pie, and think of me as you do it. The crust is my resilience, the fruit is my love.” Obviously, it is symbolic – not real!!!

I already explained this. Please see above.

You have still not explained how you know who is in heaven and why you think man made saints are guaranteed a place there. Can you tell me how anyone on earth knows God’s judgment?You are as slippery as an eel and as mendacious as the Father of Lies! The questions are,

“(i)Why do you need a dead person to pray FOR you,

I do not need it per se. But if the cookie jar is open, I'm gonna take one I think the question is rather, "Why not?"

(ii) why is some dead bint more important than you in the Eyes of God The Father?”

Wow. I had to look up the word "bint". You are all full of such colorfull language

And I never said it was more important. Perhaps I misunderstand and you could rephrase.

(iii) “ Have you read, Ecclesiastes 9:5-6 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any [thing] that is done under the sun.

If we follow Christ, we will not die but have eternal life. The "dead" refferred to here, are obviously in hell, for no one in Heaven is dead. Actually read it this time:

Mark 12:26-27 - he is the God of the living, not of the dead
Mark 9:4 - Jesus seen conversing with Elijah and Moses
Luke 16:19-30 - departed rich man intercedes for brothers
Luke 23:43 - To the thief on the Cross: "this day you will be with me in paradise"
Hebrews 12:1 - we are surrounded by a cloud of witnesses
Revelation 6:9-11 - martyrs under the altar want earthly vindication
Revelation 20:4 - saw the souls of those that had been beheaded

I’ve lost interest in your warped beliefs that deny all that God teaches and serve only the ends of the vicar of Rome and his satanic minions.

PS don't come here trying to alter our firm and Godly approach to the errant posters, (i) you are a guest, (ii) We cannot be guilt-tripped as we, unlike Catlix, have not been brainwashed!

I am only here to answer questions. When they are all answered, I will leave. However, you have a sad misunderstanding of the Catholic Church.

[Ezekiel Bathfire]

Re: I am Catholic.

[...] You should read some about the saints and try to model yourself after them. You would grow temendously.

You are suggesting that I, Ezekiel Bathfire, Pastor at Landover BAPTIST Church, model myself on a man whom the vicar of Rome ‘knows’ is in heaven because he said so? Have you taken leave of your senses?

Does it not occur to you that you have been misled? Does it never strike you that when Jesus said, “Do this in remembrance of me.”, that is what He meant? Imagine Mrs. Bathfire makes a pie – she presents the pie and says, “Ezekiel, when I am with Jesus in heaven, every now and again, eat a pie, and think of me as you do it. The crust is my resilience, the fruit is my love.” Obviously, it is symbolic – not real!!!

I already explained this. Please see above.

Would I ask a second time if I were even considering you had explained anything?

Re: Why do you need a dead person to pray FOR you: I do not need it per se. But if the cookie jar is open, I'm gonna take one. I think the question is rather, "Why not?"

”Why not?” (i) you are putting yourself forward as the apologist for The Whore of Babylon – you tell me why not? (ii) God either hears you or He does not – Chinese whispering through endless dead people is not going to help! Why should He listen to them when He knows all about you anyway? What are they going to say that you can’t? What are they going to tell Him that He does not know?

And what’s a cookie jar got to do with it, or is that where your priests keep their death-cookies?

Re: Ecclesiastes 9:5-6: If we follow Christ, we will not die but have eternal life. The "dead" refferred to here, are obviously in hell, for no one in Heaven is dead.

Just a minute, does your lot not assert that following His crucifixion that Jesus descended to Hell to preach and save the souls there? Not much point if they are, as you say, “dead.”

And what of the pit of brimstone? A bit of an anti-climax if everyone in it is dead…

Actually read it this time:

Mark 9:4 - Jesus seen conversing with Elijah and Moses

Until you can provide a satisfactory answer to praying to saints and mary, this is the only point worth addressing:
(i) Joh:14:6: Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
(ii) http://www.keithhunt.com/Enochhea.html - just as a talking point, you understand.

[Catholic - Not Christian]

Re: I am Catholic.

You are suggesting that I, Ezekiel Bathfire, Pastor at Landover BAPTIST Church, model myself on a man whom the vicar of Rome ‘knows’ is in heaven because he said so?

Yup

Have you taken leave of your senses?

Nope
You haven't ever read about one have you? There is no Saint unworthy of the repect we give them.

BUT, I can understand where you are coming from. "How can we KNOW they are in heaven if it is God's judgement alone that decides this?"

Well let me ask you a question, how do you KNOW that you are saved?

Would I ask a second time if I were even considering you had explained anything?

Sigh. Well seeing as you are too lazy to scroll up and read what I posted before, I'll post it again. I apologize to anyone who has to read this twice, but Mr. Bathfire here missed it the first time around

As I said, I don't intend to convince you to see the Bible my way. Rather only to understand Catholic interpretations. We interpret these passages as literal.

To me, the directions Christ gives are quite simple:

1. Take this and it eat it. (Thus, we take this and eat it)

2. This is my body. (Thus, this is his body)

3. Do THIS in memory of me. (Thus, we do THIS in memory of Him)

Note that Jesus did not say: This is LIKE my body, REPRESENTS my body, or is a SYMBOL of my body. IS my body. So, I believe that this IS His body, because well, that's what he said...

Why do we interpret this literally? GOOD QUESTION!! old and i'll be delighted to answer!

The problem here is that he said "do this", and just before he said "Take and eat, this is my body" (Matthew 26:26) This to me means basically that this is his body. Because that's what he says. In fact, it is the same in Matthew, Mark, and Luke. (I can explain John if you'd like but I'm sure you know where the bread of life colloquy is found)

Nowhere does it explain or refer or even suggest that Jesus did not change the bread into his body. Thus, when Jesus says to "do this" he means to "do this", to change bread into his body, just as he did.

Why he would say "Take and eat, this is my body." If he didn't want us to take and eat because this is his body?

However, the most concrete answer I can give lies elsewhere in the Bible. Surely you will agree that back in the time of Christ, if you were to talk SYMBOLICALLY about eating a man's flesh and drinking his blood, it meant to physically assault that man. Please see:

Psalms 27:2; Isaiah 49:26; Micah 3:3; 2 Samuel 23:15-17; Revelation 17:6, 16

Do you really think Christ intended for us all to beat him to a pulp? And more specifically, at the last supper, do you think wanted all his apostles to attack him? Confused? I would be. Your interpretation doesn't even make sense.

I'll explain further with John 6:50-69, which states,
{This is the bread that comes down from heaven so that one may eat it and not die. I am the living bread that came down from heaven; whoever eats this bread will live forever; and the bread that I will give is my flesh for the life of the world." The Jews quarreled among themselves, saying, "How can this man give us (his) flesh to eat?" Jesus said to them, "Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day. For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in him. Just as the living Father sent me and I have life because of the Father, so also the one who feeds on me will have life because of me. This is the bread that came down from heaven. Unlike your ancestors who ate and still died, whoever eats this bread will live forever." These things he said while teaching in the synagogue in Capernaum. Then many of his disciples who were listening said, "This saying is hard; who can accept it?" Since Jesus knew that his disciples were murmuring about this, he said to them, "Does this shock you? What if you were to see the Son of Man ascending to where he was before? It is the spirit that gives life, while the flesh is of no avail. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and life." {See note} But there are some of you who do not believe." Jesus knew from the beginning the ones who would not believe and the one who would betray him. And he said, "For this reason I have told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by my Father." As a result of this, many (of) his disciples returned to their former way of life and no longer accompanied him. Jesus then said to the Twelve, "Do you also want to leave?" Simon Peter answered him, "Master, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. We have come to believe and are convinced that you are the Holy One of God."}
Note 1: - Verse 62-63 states "Does this shock you? What if you were to see the Son of Man ascending to where he was before? It is the spirit that gives life, while the flesh is of no avail. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and life."

What Our Lord says here is not intended a Maldonatus thought, to increase the scandal, but to rectify what was simply a cannibalistic interpretation of what he has just said. The Ascension will perhaps surprise the recalcitrants more, but it will eliminate the chief difficulty about eating the flesh of One who in celestial glory takes his place where he was from eternity.

Note 2: - Notice that the close followers of Our Lord, the "disciples" LEFT HIM because this was a hard saying. Then Our Lord asks Peter if he will leave him too. Peter representing the 12 apostles says: "Master, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. WE HAVE COME TO BELIEVE (John 6:69)". My personal note to my separated brethren: Come join us and BELIEVE!

If you read one of my posts and don't see how it pertains to what we are saying, you gotta be specific. You can't just tell me it doesn't make sense and expect me to help you understand somehow. Tell me what verse does not pertain, tell me what it REALLY means, then you can tell me it does not pertain. Otherwise, to me it seems you simply cannot come up with retaliation.

”Why not?” (i) you are putting yourself forward as the apologist for The Whore of Babylon – you tell me why not? (ii) God either hears you or He does not – Chinese whispering through endless dead people is not going to help! Why should He listen to them when He knows all about you anyway? What are they going to say that you can’t? What are they going to tell Him that He does not know?

Hmm. Okay a couple questions for you then....

First, why do you see this as any different than any regular prayer? Why should I ask my fellow Christians to pray for me and not ask those that have gone before? What is the difference?

Secondly, you say:
"God either hears you or He does not ...Why should He listen to them when He knows all about you anyway? What are they going to say that you can’t? What are they going to tell Him that He does not know?"
So I ask, what can my fellow Christians do that I can't? Why not just pray by myself to God? Why do I need their help? After all, why should he listen to them when he knows all about you anyway? What are they going to say that I can't?

And what’s a cookie jar got to do with it, or is that where your priests keep their death-cookies?

Running a little low on answers here? Feel like you need to attack my metaphors? Haha, well that's okay, I've got all the answers you'll need

Just a minute, does your lot not assert that following His crucifixion that Jesus descended to Hell to preach and save the souls there? Not much point if they are, as you say, “dead.”

Good question! This is why I like coming here
Ok. By his death and Resurrection, Jesus opened heaven. Prior to that time all who died went to "hell"; however, the just went to a place in hell referred to as "the Bosom of Abraham," where they would be comforted. The parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus (Luke 16:19-31) seems to indicate that there were two parts of hell. Both Lazarus and the rich man died and went to hell, but Lazarus was comforted in the bosom of Abraham while the rich man was in a place of torment. A great chasm separated the two parts.
Scripture calls the abode of the dead, to which the dead Christ went down, "hell"— Sheol in Hebrew or Hades in Greek—because those who are there are deprived of the vision of God. Such is the case for all the dead, whether evil or righteous, while they await the redeemer: which does not mean that their lot is identical, as Jesus shows through the parable of the poor man Lazarus who was received into "Abraham’s bosom": "It is precisely these holy souls, who awaited their Savior in Abraham’s bosom, whom Christ the Lord delivered when he descended into hell." Jesus did not descend into hell to deliver the damned, nor to destroy the hell of damnation, but to free the just who had gone before him.

And what of the pit of brimstone? A bit of an anti-climax if everyone in it is dead…

Dead of spirit, not of flesh. I think you are a little confused here, let my try to explain.

To be in hell does not mean that you are "dead" as in ceasing to exist. They are however, cut off from God, for eternity, thus they are "dead" of the spirit for they are without God... But just because they EXIST ETERNALLY in hell forever does not mean that they have ETERNAL LIFE. Surely you agree that there is a difference between existing eternally and eternal life. Those in hell are dead.

Until you can provide a satisfactory answer to praying to saints and mary, this is the only point worth addressing:
(i) Joh:14:6: Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
(ii) http://www.keithhunt.com/Enochhea.html - just as a talking point, you understand.

So you believe that Elijah, Moses, and Enoch were not taken into heaven but rather brought to some random void in space or....? It seems like heaven to me... Even though heaven was closed off at this point because Christ had not died, God can make a few special exceptions He is God after all....

So to you, if it is not explicitly stated in the Bible, it is untrue, even if it is reasonable inferred?

[James Peter]

Re: I am Catholic.

Catholic - Christian, you are doing an AWESOME job handling these heathens, far better than I have done, I think. You really know how to point out how stupid and wrong these maniacs are. All they care about is the Bible, Bible, Bible! They don't care a bit about what the Church says, it's sad

[Ezekiel Bathfire]

Re: I am Catholic.

[...] You haven't ever read about one have you? There is no Saint unworthy of the repect we give them.

That was said by a man who knew nothing of God's judgment.

BUT, I can understand where you are coming from. "How can we KNOW they are in heaven if it is God's judgement alone that decides this?"

Well let me ask you a question, how do you KNOW that you are saved?

I do not need to answer questions before you give an answer to mine.

but Mr. Bathfire here missed it the first time around

[...]We interpret these passages as literal.

To me, the directions Christ gives are quite simple:

1. Take this and it eat it. (Thus, we take this and eat it)

2. This is my body. (Thus, this is his body)

3. Do THIS in memory of me. (Thus, we do THIS in memory of Him)

Note that Jesus did not say: This is LIKE my body, REPRESENTS my body, or is a SYMBOL of my body. IS my body. So, I believe that this IS His body, because well, that's what he said...

Have you ever tried to explain a vehicle accident in a restaurant? The first thing you do is pick up a salt shaker and say, "This is me."... Anyone who then took the salt shaker would not be arrested for kidnap. Hello!


[lots of irrationality deleted]

First, why do you see this as any different than any regular prayer?

Regular Pray you speak directly to God - anything else is not prayer. There is NO irregular prayer.

Secondly, you say:
"God either hears you or He does not ...Why should He listen to them when He knows all about you anyway? What are they going to say that you can’t? What are they going to tell Him that He does not know?"

Can I have an answer?

So you believe that Elijah, Moses, and Enoch were not taken into heaven but rather brought to some random void in space or....? It seems like heaven to me... Even though heaven was closed off at this point because Christ had not died, God can make a few special exceptions He is God after all....

It is a mistake, fatal to the very soul, to assume what God may do.

So to you, if it is not explicitly stated in the Bible, it is untrue, even if it is reasonable inferred?

If it doesn't say it, it didn't happen. Your example is a straw man; e.g. when the Bible says Jesus left for Galilee, we can assume he walked. When something miraculous happens, we cannot understand miracles and thus we may not assume a solution as, probably, the solution is equally amazing - almost unbelievable.

[WWJDnow]

Re: I am Catholic.

There is no Saint unworthy of the repect we give them.

What about Mother Theresa? She ran the least hospitable hospices in the world, took money from dictators, and was an atheist. Surely she's not worthy of respect.

Well let me ask you a question, how do you KNOW that you are saved?

He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved.... Mark 16:16

To me, the directions Christ gives are quite simple:

1. Take this and it eat it. (Thus, we take this and eat it)

2. This is my body. (Thus, this is his body)

3. Do THIS in memory of me. (Thus, we do THIS in memory of Him)

Were you at the last supper? No? Then why do you think Jesus was talking to you? He was talking to His disciples assembled there at the time.

Why do we interpret this literally? GOOD QUESTION!!

Because you're not very bright and you've been brainwashed. I once saw a guy throw up after he got back from Church, and I can assure you there was bread and wine in his stomach, not flesh and blood. I'll admit, though, I once saw a Catholic priest turn an Oreo into a Hydrox. That was pretty impressive.

Surely you will agree that back in the time of Christ, if you were to talk SYMBOLICALLY about eating a man's flesh and drinking his blood, it meant to physically assault that man. Please see:

Psalms 27:2; Isaiah 49:26; Micah 3:3; 2 Samuel 23:15-17; Revelation 17:6, 16

Those verses tell us that people who want to eat the flesh of others are evil. It's true.

I'll explain further with John 6:50-69, which states,

{This is the bread that comes down from heaven so that one may eat it and not die. I am the living bread that came down from heaven; whoever eats this bread will live forever; and the bread that I will give is my flesh for the life of the world."

You need to understand the service at the Jewish Passover. It's all symbolic. When the Jews raise the matzoh and say "this is the bread of affliction that our ancestors ate in the land of Egypt," they don't mean that it's exactly the same piece of matzoh.

What Our Lord says here is not intended a Maldonatus thought

Please don't start discussing obscure 16th Century philosophers here. This is a church website, not a Philosophy Department roundtable. We really, really do NOT care what Maldonado though.

If you read one of my posts and don't see how it pertains to what we are saying, you gotta be specific.

OK. You drone on and on in different fonts, yet you say nothing. It's tiresome.

First, why do you see this as any different than any regular prayer? Why should I ask my fellow Christians to pray for me and not ask those that have gone before? What is the difference?

The difference is that they are DEAD:

For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. Ecclesiastes 9:5

I ask, what can my fellow Christians do that I can't? Why not just pray by myself to God?

First, you're not Christian, you're Catholic, so you don't have "fellow Christians." Second, you should pray by yourself:

But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father in secret shall reward thee openly. Matthew 6:6

Why do I need their help? After all, why should he listen to them when he knows all about you anyway? What are they going to say that I can't?

They don't.

And this is the confidence that we have in him, that, if we ask any thing according to his will, he heareth us: And if we know that he hear us, whatsoever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we desired of him. 1 John 5:14-15

If you have faith, God will answer your prayer. You don't need to ask anyone to pray for you. But it isn't sinful to ask them, provided they are still alive.

Running a little low on answers here?

No, we have a Bible full of answers. You need to get over yourself, your arguments aren't hard to deflect, they're unthoughtful and unbiblical.

Feel like you need to attack my metaphors?

You don't speak in metaphors. You speak in nonsense. There's a big difference.

Haha, well that's okay, I've got all the answers you'll need.

Haha.

The parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus (Luke 16:19-31) seems to indicate that there were two parts of hell. Both Lazarus and the rich man died and went to hell, but Lazarus was comforted in the bosom of Abraham while the rich man was in a place of torment. A great chasm separated the two parts.

Jesus said that he told parables to confuse people like you who are destined to burn in Hell so you wouldn't accept Jesus. We don't believe the things Jesus said in parables.

Scripture calls the abode of the dead, to which the dead Christ went down, "hell"— Sheol in Hebrew or Hades in Greek—because those who are there are deprived of the vision of God.

Chapter and verse please.

Jesus did not descend into hell to deliver the damned, nor to destroy the hell of damnation, but to free the just who had gone before him.

I give up. You're getting all of this nonsense from the Cartoon Bible, right? Because no adult would believe crap like this.

So you believe that Elijah, Moses, and Enoch were not taken into heaven but rather brought to some random void in space or....?

Elijah ascended into heaven alive in a whirlwind, naked. Moses died and was buried, he didn't ascend bodily into heaven. There are four Enochs mentioned in the Bible, and there's no reason to believe that any of them died Saved.

So to you, if it is not explicitly stated in the Bible, it is untrue, even if it is reasonable inferred?

You haven't reasonably inferred anything.

[Catholic - Not Christian]

Re: I am Catholic.

What about Mother Theresa? She ran the least hospitable hospices in the world, took money from dictators, and was an atheist. Surely she's not worthy of respect.

Do a little honest research. Please.

He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved.... Mark 16:16

To believe we must love Jesus and follow all of his commandments and ask forgiveness for a failures. Constantly. For we sin constantly. You can hope that you will be saved, but in no way can this be a past event. You could always fall from grace, no matter how saved you claim to be.

Were you at the last supper? No? Then why do you think Jesus was talking to you? He was talking to His disciples assembled there at the time.

In the same way that we believe the Ten Commandments to not only apply to the Israelites, Catholics recognize this commandment as applying to everyone as well.

Because you're not very bright and you've been brainwashed. I once saw a guy throw up after he got back from Church, and I can assure you there was bread and wine in his stomach, not flesh and blood.

Flesh and blood under the appearance of bread and wine. Just like the Last Supper.

Those verses tell us that people who want to eat the flesh of others are evil. It's true.

Wrong. Let me help you understand.

Psalm 27:2 When evildoers come at me to devour my flesh, these my enemies and foes themselves stumble and fall.

This is a case where the Bible speak symbolically about eating flesh. And in this case, it means to do physical harm to the person.

Isaiah 49:26 I will make your oppressors eat their own flesh, and they shall be drunk with their own blood..."

Also here, you see that the Bible speak symbolically about eating flesh. And also in this case, it means to exact physical hurt upon that person.

Micah 3:3 They eat the flesh of my people, and flay their skin from them, and break their bones. They chop them in pieces like flesh in a kettle, and like meat in a caldron.

And again, symbolic speech of eating flesh. Equivalent to physical assault.

Revelation 17:6 I saw that the woman was drunk on the blood of the holy ones and on the blood of the witnesses to Jesus.

And again, drunk with blood. Symbolically that is. She has killed many holy ones as we see, she has caused them physical harm.

Revelation 17:16 The ten horns that you saw and the beast will hate the harlot; they will leave her desolate and naked; they will eat her flesh and consume her with fire.

Are you catching on now? Back in Jesus' time to speak symbolically about eating flesh meant to physically assault or even kill that person. There is no way around it. You simply did not speak symbolically about eating flesh unless you meant to assault someone.

Thus, your claim that Jesus spoke to the crowd in John 6:50-69 telling them "unless you physically assault me, you will not have eternal life". That is the ONLY thing it could of been. Unless however, you recognize that he was NOT in fact speaking metaphorically.

Couple this view with these verses:
Matthew 26:26 - "Take and eat, this is my body."
Mark 14:22, 24 - "This is my body ... This is my blood of the covenant."
Luke 22:19-20 - "This is my body, which will be given for you ... new covenant in my blood"
1 Corinthians 11:24 - "This is my body that is for you. Do this in remembrance of me."
Acts 20:7 - "first day of the week when we gathered to break bread"

And the Catholic interpretation is clearly defined.

You need to understand the service at the Jewish Passover. It's all symbolic. When the Jews raise the matzoh and say "this is the bread of affliction that our ancestors ate in the land of Egypt," they don't mean that it's exactly the same piece of matzoh.

You need to understand that we are not Jewish, we are Catholic. This means nothing to me.

Please don't start discussing obscure 16th Century philosophers here. This is a church website, not a Philosophy Department roundtable. We really, really do NOT care what Maldonado though.

Fair enough.

The difference is that they are DEAD:

For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. Ecclesiastes 9:5

This statement is based on a very imperfect concept of life beyond the grave. The NT corrects this:

Mark 12:26-27 - he is not the God of the dead but of the living, you are greatly misled.

This speaks about raising the dead. It is answering questions about the Resurrection and raising the dead, this did not make sense to the Jews much as it does not make sense to you now. Those in heaven (the Saints) are not dead but have eternal life. Their bodies are dead, yes, but it is not their bodies that we ask to pray for us but their spirits who are now in the hand of God.

First, you're not Christian, you're Catholic, so you don't have "fellow Christians."

And you say I have been brainwashed...

Second, you should pray by yourself:

But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father in secret shall reward thee openly. Matthew 6:6

Pray in secret is all this verse commands. This forbids public displays of faith, for that is not the purpose or prayer. Prayer is between us and God, and no one needs to observe. However, one can pray in secret without being alone:

Matthew 18:19-20 Again, I say to you, if two of you agree on earth about anything for which they are to pray, it shall be granted to them by my heavenly Father. For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

Acts 1:14 They all joined together constantly in prayer, along with the women and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brothers.

Acts 4:24When they heard this, they raised their voices together in prayer to God. "Sovereign Lord," they said, "you made the heaven and the earth and the sea, and everything in them.

They don't.

And this is the confidence that we have in him, that, if we ask any thing according to his will, he heareth us: And if we know that he hear us, whatsoever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we desired of him. 1 John 5:14-15

If you have faith, God will answer your prayer. You don't need to ask anyone to pray for you. But it isn't sinful to ask them, provided they are still alive.

I agree with all this except that must still be alive, but I already told you why we believe that.

Jesus said that he told parables to confuse people like you who are destined to burn in Hell so you wouldn't accept Jesus. We don't believe the things Jesus said in parables.

Woah dude... I'm afraid I can't agree with you here. Nothing in the Bible has the intention of misleading anyone. God would never purposely lead His sheep astray. And you say you do everything the Bible commands? With a few exceptions I see....

Chapter and verse please.

2 Thessalonians 1:9 - "pay the penalty of eternal ruin, separated from the presence of the Lord"

Those in Hell are separated from God forever. Capiche?

I give up. You're getting all of this nonsense from the Cartoon Bible, right? Because no adult would believe crap like this.

Faith of a child

Elijah ascended into heaven alive in a whirlwind, naked. Moses died and was buried, he didn't ascend bodily into heaven. There are four Enochs mentioned in the Bible, and there's no reason to believe that any of them died Saved.

Genesis 5:24 - Enoch walked with God, then was no more, because God took him.

Hebrews 11:5-6 - It was because of his faith that Enoch was taken up and did not experience death: he was no more, because God took him; because before his assumption he was acknowledged to have pleased God. Now it is impossible to please God without faith, since anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and rewards those who seek him.

You haven't reasonably inferred anything.

Opinion noted.

[Pastor Ezekiel]

Re: I am Catholic.

Mother Theresa was a hellbound demon from day one, which has been well-documented HERE.

[Meek and Humble]

Re: I am Catholic.

To believe we must love Jesus and follow all of his commandments and ask forgiveness for a failures. Constantly. For we sin constantly. You can hope that you will be saved, but in no way can this be a past event. You could always fall from grace, no matter how saved you claim to be.

Wrong. Once saved, always saved.

John 5:24: Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

John 10:27-29: "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. "And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. "My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand.


Romans 8:35: Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? [shall] tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

Hebrews 3:14: For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end,


Ephesians 2:4-6: But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,

2 Timothy 2:13: If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself.

Ephesians 1:13-14 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

Hebrews 9:12: Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption [for us].

Psalms 121:1-8: I will lift up my eyes to the hills From whence comes my help? My help [comes] from the LORD, Who made heaven and earth. He will not allow your foot to be moved; He who keeps you will not slumber. Behold, He who keeps Israel Shall neither slumber nor sleep. The LORD [is] your keeper; The LORD [is] your shade at your right hand. The sun shall not strike you by day, Nor the moon by night. The LORD shall preserve you from all evil; He shall preserve your soul. The LORD shall preserve your going out and your coming in From this time forth, and even forevermore.

Psalms 37:28: For the LORD loves justice; he will not forsake his saints. They are preserved forever, but the children of the wicked shall be cut off.

Thus, your claim that Jesus spoke to the crowd in John 6:50-69 telling them "unless you physically assault me, you will not have eternal life". That is the ONLY thing it could of been. Unless however, you recognize that he was NOT in fact speaking metaphorically.

Jesus is talking about how He is going to be crucified. By His violent death, we are given the chance of eternal life.

This speaks about raising the dead. It is answering questions about the Resurrection and raising the dead, this did not make sense to the Jews much as it does not make sense to you now. Those in heaven (the Saints) are not dead but have eternal life. Their bodies are dead, yes, but it is not their bodies that we ask to pray for us but their spirits who are now in the hand of God.

Woah dude... I'm afraid I can't agree with you here. Nothing in the Bible has the intention of misleading anyone. God would never purposely lead His sheep astray. And you say you do everything the Bible commands? With a few exceptions I see....

Actually, that is straight from the Bible



Matthew 13: 10And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
11He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
12For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
13Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
14And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive: 15For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.



Mark 4:11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables: 4:12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.

Luke 8:10 And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand.

2 Thessalonians 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

John 12:40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

Jude 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

Those in Hell are separated from God forever. Capiche?

Psalm 139:7 Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence? 139:8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.

Faith of a child

1 Corinthians 13:11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
1 Corinthians 14:20 Brethren, be not children in understanding: howbeit in malice be ye children, but in understanding be men.
Ephesians 4:14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine.

[Catholic - Not Christian]

Re: I am Catholic.

Mother Theresa was a hellbound demon from day one, which has been well-documented HERE.

I said honest research. Not your landover propaganda. And certainly not from an Atheist website. What were you thinking?

Here is an article from EWTN:

*SATANIC CATHOLIC LINK DELETED*

Everyone goes through dark times, nobody is perfect. Mother Teresa however gave everything to God, even when in doubt she held nothing back. THAT is worthy of a little respect.

PS I don't see you in India trying to minister to abhorrent anti-Christians.

[Catholic - Not Christian]

Re: I am Catholic.

You know not of what you speak. Pastor Ezekiel has gone on many missionary voyages into Asian countries, though he has tended to go to the places with Chinese people instead of the brown people.

My honest apologies to Pastor Ezekiel.

Question though: What do you mean "brown" people? Why does that matter?

[Meek and Humble]

Re: I am Catholic.

Oh, it doesn't matter. I was just letting you know the good Pastor dealt with a different group of abhorrent pagans then did Mother Theresa.