[Ahimaaz Smith]

Re: PROOF God is REAL!

It seems to me there is a bit of confusion around this topic. Truth, faith, knowledge and belief are terms being used interchangeably, to everyone’s quite visible disgust.

Excellent point. It's shocking how many people come into these forums and present their anti-Christian propeganda as "fact."

If you are relating the scientific method to Biblical doctrine, there are going to be big, big problems.

That is 100% correct. That's why Paul warned us not to put our faith in science:

Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called.... 1 Timothy 6:20

And Biblical proof really boils down to a ‘first cause’ argument.

Not entirely. The Bible also serves as eyewitness testimony (it was written by men who directly observed miracles of God). Moreover, the Bible is filled with prophecy that has come true (e.g., the gathering of the Jews in Israel). There's the real test of faith--prove one Biblical prophecy wrong, and the entire Bible is false. I've yet to see anyone show a single prophecy that was wrong, though.

Why even bother arguing for empirical validation of a flat earth, or a 6000 year old universe? It just won’t work if you use the same axioms as defined by the scientific method. It’s like turning up to bat with a sand wedge. You’re using the wrong tools guys.

I can see that you are a true philosopher. I do not disagree with you. However, the secular "scientists" are also using the wrong tools, because their methods and their axioms ignore the effect of the Will of God.

Just my 2 cents worth.

It's worth far more than that, you raise some fine arguments. But you should understand that there is far more to our views than the argument from first cause.

[JennyD]

Re: PROOF God is REAL!

Just my 2 cents worth.

Joe

I believe we've got change coming, Joe.

[Kenneth (aka "Mr. K")]

Re: PROOF God is REAL!

"Facts" always change. 200 years ago it was a "fact" that Man couldn't fly. Now it's a "fact" that we can.


God never changes.

Actually, man still cannot fly, we just can build machines that carry us through the sky
Greets

[Pastor Ezekiel]

Re: PROOF God is REAL!

Actually, man still cannot fly, we just can build machines that carry us through the sky
Greets

Don't get lippy with me boy. You know perfectly well what I meant.

But you bring up a good point; if your evolution theory is true, why don't we see Men with wings and feathers flying around?

God gave us airplanes to use. Don't play the fool, boy.

[Kenneth (aka "Mr. K")]

Re: PROOF God is REAL!

Don't get lippy with me boy. You know perfectly well what I meant.

But you bring up a good point; if your evolution theory is true, why don't we see Men with wings and feathers flying around?

God gave us airplanes to use. Don't play the fool, boy.

Sir, actually I wasn't trying to get lippy with you... I didn't mean anything with that remark... But since you're so eager to argue with me...
Evolution happened over 3 billions years of time, man only exists 14 to 15 million years, do you really think it all happens fast enough for you to see it?
Airplanes have been given to us by God? The first airplane ever was built by the Wright brothers, in 1903. Their plane flew only 58 meters far. Since then, man has improved this technology, which leads to what we see in today's skies.
Think again before you try to fool me...

[Ezekiel Bathfire]

Re: PROOF God is REAL!

Before someone else mentions it, Archbishop Ussher proved conclusively that the earth can be no more than 6000 years old give or take. Others narrowed it down to, I think, 9 am on 23 October, however, that is still contentious.

As it happens the Wright brothers were good Christians and inspired by God who trusted them not to fly too close to Heaven (see Tower of Babel incident.) This probably accounts for the first short flight.

[joe707]

Re: PROOF God is REAL!

Of course not! Deduction cannot explain miracles. They are counterintuitive. But then, so is quantum physics. So is the study of Quantum mechanics useless merely because we cannot understand it? No, not as long as it leads to a greater understanding of GOD.

I agree, it would be silly to disregard something just because it seemed counterintuitive. The paths of science and religion are both filled with great things, impossible things, mad things.

Amen, something else IS badly need, friend. That something else is called Faith. Faith is how I know that the first two premises are true. They can't be proven any other way. Let that be a lesson to anyone who doubts the power of Faith.

Yes, I’m glad you said that Pastor, but how do you discriminate faith from knowledge? Do they overlap? You can see faith coming from all sorts of odd places. I don’t think that makes it any real order of knowledge though.

Not entirely. The Bible also serves as eyewitness testimony (it was written by men who directly observed miracles of God). Moreover, the Bible is filled with prophecy that has come true (e.g., the gathering of the Jews in Israel). There's the real test of faith--prove one Biblical prophecy wrong, and the entire Bible is false. I've yet to see anyone show a single prophecy that was wrong, though.

Well scientists would say that the idea of a flat earth (which admittedly is not so much a prophecy) has now been shown to be false. Which it has, according to empirical, scientific method. So either you end up trying to prove otherwise as in the posts here - which is a tough ask - or maybe you have to go further, and declare that empirical science is not ultimate truth. I’d go with this, although the danger is you throw the baby out with the bathwater.

However, the secular "scientists" are also using the wrong tools, because their methods and their axioms ignore the effect of the Will of God.

Right, such a concept is anathema to scientific method. No purely physical science is able to work with such axioms. It is proving to be real sand in the ointment in this day and age. It irritates everyone, even Richard Dawkins.

But you should understand that there is far more to our views than the argument from first cause.

I do, I do.

I believe we've got change coming, Joe.

Hmm, Intriguing. Do say more. If I didn't know better, I'd say you were being quite the mystic!

[Pastor Billy-Reuben]

Re: PROOF God is REAL!

Yes, I’m glad you said that Pastor, but how do you discriminate faith from knowledge? Do they overlap? You can see faith coming from all sorts of odd places. I don’t think that makes it any real order of knowledge though.

Faith is all we have, friend. You take it purely on faith that you aren't just a brain in a jar dreaming a dream, and that the entire universe as you know it exists outside your imagination.

[joe707]

Re: PROOF God is REAL!

Faith is all we have, friend. You take it purely on faith that you aren't just a brain in a jar dreaming a dream, and that the entire universe as you know it exists outside your imagination.

I think we have much, much more. There is knowing beyond just faith. It may be that the entire universe doesn't exist outside imagination, but is that not knowledge too? Who dreamt the first dream? Faith was never meant to be the end of things.

[joe707]

Re: PROOF God is REAL!

I believe we've got change coming, Joe.

Ah, the other kind of change! I get it. Thanks, I was being a bit slow there.

[Ahimaaz Smith]

Re: PROOF God is REAL!

It may be that the entire universe doesn't exist outside imagination, but is that not knowledge too?

What the Hell are you talking about? The universe exists. We know that, because God created it. First verse of the Bible:

In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

Faith was never meant to be the end of things.

You have some strange notions. Jesus said in Revelation 22:13:

I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

[joe707]

Re: PROOF God is REAL!

What the Hell are you talking about? The universe exists. We know that, because God created it. First verse of the Bible: In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

But we’re not talking about that. We agreed that that is not a claim that can be sustained by logic. The Pastor says it is faith alone that can support this. And I am saying that neither logical analysis nor faith in the word, any word, is really enough.

You have some strange notions. Jesus said in Revelation 22:13: I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

Yes, but what do you understand by that? It needs more than just slavishly following the text.

Matthew 13:19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.

What does that mean?

[Pastor Billy-Reuben]

Re: PROOF God is REAL!

What does that mean?

It means if you didn't learn what the preacher tried to teach you because you too busy daydreaming to pay attention to the sermon, then it's real easy for a false teacher to come along and sway you with false teachings.

Pastor Billy-Reuben

[Pastor Al E Pistle]

Re: PROOF God is REAL!

Matthew 13:19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.

What does that mean?

Joe, I am going to cut to the chase here. The Bible, as confirmed to be completely correct by the latest scientific methodology I have applied, means this:

We are very near the end times. You must donate all of your worldly possessions to the church and preach The Word as it is given to you by us...which basically involves convincing everyone else to donate THEIR worldly possessions to us as a demonstration of their true repentance and acceptance of JESUS.

If you don't do that, we have to send someone to kill you, but we aren't heathens. We will call ahead for a mutually acceptable and convenient time. If that isn't love I don't know what is!

[joe707]

Re: PROOF God is REAL!

Joe, I am going to cut to the chase here. The Bible, as confirmed to be completely correct by the latest scientific methodology I have applied, means this:

We are very near the end times. You must donate all of your worldly possessions to the church and preach The Word as it is given to you by us...which basically involves convincing everyone else to donate THEIR worldly possessions to us as a demonstration of their true repentance and acceptance of JESUS.

If you don't do that, we have to send someone to kill you, but we aren't heathens. We will call ahead for a mutually acceptable and convenient time. If that isn't love I don't know what is!

You should know what love is. It is not that. Maybe you are being a bit tongue-in-cheek here Pastor, I bet you see more than that.