[Throe up]

Re: Flat Earth? Hell Yes!

Photons are a particle that acts like a wave. Therefore, "wave particle".

1.Light is a special case in terms of momentum. There is no other particle like it.

2. I used a series of irrelevant equations earlier to see if you would pick up on the fact that they were irrelevant before I had to tell you. You didn't.

3. Alright, here we go. To attain permanent daylight, one would have to permanently trap the light from the sun. The gravitational field needed to to that is the gravitational field of a stellar mass black hole, the final point in the life of a star 10 to 15 times the mass of our sun. Our sun has a mass of 1.989*10^30, that would be, at the minimum, 1.989*10^31. The earth, for reference, has a mass of 5.9742*10^24, which is 10000000x less.

I'll even reference the entire equation. G=8(Pi)T, where G is the gravitational field, and T is the mass.

G for a black hole.
G = 8(Pi)(1.989*10^31)
G = 1.5912*10^32 *(Pi) (We'll just go with Pi being 3.14, for simplicity)
G= 4.996368*10^32 (This is the field that the earth would have to have to trap light.)

G for the Earth.
G = 8(Pi) (5.9742*10^24)
G = (Pi) (4.7796*10^25) (Again, 3.14 for Pi)
G = 1.5007944*10^26

Also, there are eleven dimensions suggested by some scientists. These have not yet been proven. Four dimensions is generally accepted, and is the official definition of spacetime.

[Rachael Van Helsing]

Re: Flat Earth? Hell Yes!

You know, Pastor Al, I don't get why someone who seems as smart as you do subscribes to this whole bible nonsense.

You don't believe in a flat earth as well.....?

[Pastor Al E Pistle]

Re: Flat Earth? Hell Yes!

So you say. I'm not done.

Basically, I'll start off telling you that the assumption that photons have mass is incorrect, since they are wave particles. Got ya there, didn't I?

Photons don't have mass, they momentum. They're affected by gravitational fields not because they have mass, but because gravitational fields (in particular, strong ones) warp space-time. The photons are responding to the curve in space-time made by the gravitational field, not the field itself.

The gravitational field of the Earth is not sufficient to warp space time enough to trap light so that we attain permanent daylight. Since we're using science here, I'll use a star as an example. A star (with a mass and gravitational field far bigger than that of the earth), only SLIGHTLY bends light. Thus, no permanent day for us.

(In case you need a definition of space-time, it's the four dimensions we live in. We have three spacial dimensions, and we have time.)

Even if we accept the unsound principles of particle physics, sometimes called quantum theory, there is no such animal as a "wave particle". It has to be one or the other.

First, let me describe the experiment of Schroedinger's cat as explained by my colleague Cecil Adams over at thestraightdope.com.

Here is a letter sent to him by someone as confused as you are:

Cecil, you're my final hope
Of finding out the true Straight Dope
For I have been reading of Schroedinger's cat
But none of my cats are at all like that.
This unusual animal (so it is said)
Is simultaneously live and dead!
What I don't understand is just why he
Can't be one or other, unquestionably.
My future now hangs in between eigenstates.
In one I'm enlightened, the other I ain't.
If you understand, Cecil, then show me the way
And rescue my psyche from quantum decay.
But if this queer thing has perplexed even you,
Then I will and won't see you in Schroedinger's zoo.
— Randy F., Chicago


Dear Randy:
Schroedinger, Erwin! Professor of physics!
Wrote daring equations! Confounded his critics!
(Not bad, eh? Don't worry. This part of the verse
Starts off pretty good, but it gets a lot worse.)
Win saw that the theory that Newton'd invented
By Einstein's discov'ries had been badly dented.
What now? wailed his colleagues. Said Erwin, "Don't panic,
No grease monkey I, but a quantum mechanic.
Consider electrons. Now, these teeny articles
Are sometimes like waves, and then sometimes like particles.
If that's not confusing, the nuclear dance
Of electrons and suchlike is governed by chance!
No sweat, though--my theory permits us to judge
Where some of 'em is and the rest of 'em was."
Not everyone bought this. It threatened to wreck
The comforting linkage of cause and effect.
E'en Einstein had doubts, and so Schroedinger tried
To tell him what quantum mechanics implied.
Said Win to Al, "Brother, suppose we've a cat,
And inside a tube we have put that cat at--
Along with a solitaire deck and some Fritos,
A bottle of Night Train, a couple mosquitoes
(Or something else rhyming) and, oh, if you got 'em,
One vial prussic acid, one decaying ottom
Or atom--whatever--but when it emits,
A trigger device blasts the vial into bits
Which snuffs our poor kitty. The odds of this crime
Are 50 to 50 per hour each time.
The cylinder's sealed. The hour's passed away. Is
Our pussy still purring--or pushing up daisies?
Now, you'd say the cat either lives or it don't
But quantum mechanics is stubborn and won't.
Statistically speaking, the cat (goes the joke),
Is half a cat breathing and half a cat croaked.
To some this may seem a ridiculous split,
But quantum mechanics must answer, "Tough @#&!
We may not know much, but one thing's fo' sho':
There's things in the cosmos that we cannot know.
Shine light on electrons--you'll cause them to swerve.
The act of observing disturbs the observed--
Which ruins your test. But then if there's no testing
To see if a particle's moving or resting
Why try to conjecture? Pure useless endeavor!
We know probability--certainty, never.'
The effect of this notion? I very much fear
'Twill make doubtful all things that were formerly clear.
Till soon the cat doctors will say in reports,
"We've just flipped a coin and we've learned he's a corpse."'
So saith Herr Erwin. Quoth Albert, "You're nuts.
God doesn't play dice with the universe, putz.
I'll prove it!" he said, and the Lord knows he tried--
In vain--until fin'ly he more or less died.
Win spoke at the funeral: "Listen, dear friends,
Sweet Al was my buddy. I must make amends.
Though he doubted my theory, I'll say of this saint:
Ten-to-one he's in heaven--but five bucks says he ain't."
— Cecil Adams

Now then, we have demonstrated that you are wrong about particles. Let us move on to photons, which are particles as well. First, photons are emitted by GOD, and this prove His existence. Second, photons don't stop. They move. If a photon is massless, then staring at the sun cannot harm your vision. But don't try it. Remember what happed to Galileo.

Did you mention Gravity? If Pastor Billy-Reuben did not explain that to your satisfaction, I'll give it a try later. Right now I have to go outside and marvel at the Lesser Light GOD made to light the night sky. The moon! Which glows by itself and would provide warmth and comfort if the Sun went out. Which it can't, because GOD made it too.

[StarrKingGrad]

Re: Flat Earth? Hell Yes!

We were talking about the bending of light, which is the effect of the force on the photon.
2.1963643*10^-23 m∙kg/s2 / 5.525*10^-36 kg ≅ 3.98*10^13 m/s2, or about 40,000,000,000,000 m/s2.

I don't pretend to know much about science, but one of my parishioners is a professor of astrophysics at Cal Berkeley. I ran this by him, and I've rarely seen anyone laugh so hard in my life. He said that your scribblings--and this is a direct quote--"bear as much resemblence to real physics as Gilligan's Island does to the life of real castaways." I'm of a more charitable bent, so I'd like you to submit your calculations for the mass of the photon to the good folks at MIT, since I'm sure that would be quite a revelation to them.

BTW, my astrophysicist parishioner asked me to ask you if your parents were biochemists. I have no idea what he meant by that.

[Pastor Billy-Reuben]

Re: Flat Earth? Hell Yes!

Photons don't have mass, they momentum.

Momentum = Mass * Velocity.
If mass is zero, momentum is zero.

They're affected by gravitational fields not because they have mass, but because gravitational fields (in particular, strong ones) warp space-time. The photons are responding to the curve in space-time made by the gravitational field, not the field itself.

If you really believed that, then why did you attempt to use a series of irrelevant equations earlier? Are you learning via Wikipedia as you go along?

The gravitational field of the Earth is not sufficient to warp space time enough to trap light so that we attain permanent daylight.

I will expect you to back that up. Show your work and tell us how much space-time is warped by the gravitational field of the Earth, and tell us how much warping would be required, and what would the mass of the Earth need to be, to attain permanent daylight on a sphere with a radius of 6378.137 km.

(In case you need a definition of space-time, it's the four dimensions we live in. We have three spacial dimensions, and we have time.)

Last I heard, the scientists thought there were eleven dimensions. Are you behind the times, or were those scientists smoking crack?

Pastor Billy-Reuben

[Throe up]

Re: Flat Earth? Hell Yes!

So you say. I'm not done.

Basically, I'll start off telling you that the assumption that photons have mass is incorrect, since they are wave particles. Got ya there, didn't I?

Photons don't have mass, they momentum. They're affected by gravitational fields not because they have mass, but because gravitational fields (in particular, strong ones) warp space-time. The photons are responding to the curve in space-time made by the gravitational field, not the field itself.

The gravitational field of the Earth is not sufficient to warp space time enough to trap light so that we attain permanent daylight. Since we're using science here, I'll use a star as an example. A star (with a mass and gravitational field far bigger than that of the earth), only SLIGHTLY bends light. Thus, no permanent day for us.

(In case you need a definition of space-time, it's the four dimensions we live in. We have three spacial dimensions, and we have time.)

[Pastor Billy-Reuben]

Re: Flat Earth? Hell Yes!

I don't see you answering his question.

That's because you are too lazy to read the whole thread to see which questions have already been asked and answered.

I hate to reward laziness, but here it is again.

So, what this pictures tells us(in less then 1000 words) is that if you continue to go in one direction you'll end up hittind your head in the wall. Right?

That would be the sides of the firmament.

BUT, there are also 12 exits. So, how come and we haven't spotted one yet and get out of this flat, pizza-shaped earth?

I'm not sure, but I would assume they are guarded by angels.

Also, in a flat erth we would be able to see the sun at all times, ergo it would be day all the time.

The sun is probably directed light, like a spotlight. That's why it can be sunny in one place, twilight in another, and dark in yet another.

And, how can this image explain that close to the north/south pole the day/night lasts much longer than 24 hours?

The sun doesn't move in the same path year round. In the summer, the sun moves in a tighter circle closer to the center, meaning the center is always lit, and the edge doesn't get any light at all. In the winter, the sun is in a larger circle following close to the edge, and the center doesn't get any light.

Or the fact that when you travel with a ship you see a portion of the land and as you approach slowly you see a bigger part of it?

Because things look smaller when they are further away.

Wouldn't be easier for God to make earth sphere-shaped in the first place???

For an omnipotent being, all tasks are equally easy. No matter what shape you pick, it isn't any easier or harder for God to make the earth into that shape.

Pastor Billy-Reuben

Maybe your arguments aren't quite as ironclad as you think?

Maybe your questions aren't as stumping as you think.

Also, as to your "gravity bending light" idea, I think I can put that to rest.
First, we have the equation for the force of gravity between two objects.

F=G* (M#1 *M#2)/ D^2

...

F= 2.1963643*10^-23
So, F= 0.0000000000000000000000021963643
That's an EXTREMELY small number. Almost no effect WHATSOEVER.

But you aren't finished yet. You have correctly calculated the force, but you stopped short of showing the effect of that force upon the photon.

First, let's see what is the effect of the force on the Earth.
2.1963643*10^-23 m∙kg/s2 / 5.96*10 ^24 kg ≅ 3.68*10^-48 m/s2.

So virtually no effect on the Earth.

But, we weren't talking about the effect of the photon on the Earth, were we? We were talking about the bending of light, which is the effect of the force on the photon.
2.1963643*10^-23 m∙kg/s2 / 5.525*10^-36 kg ≅ 3.98*10^13 m/s2, or about 40,000,000,000,000 m/s2.

Of course, that number isn't right because I haven't accounted for relativity, and Newton's laws completely break down when we start talking about numbers this large. Some of the force applied to the photon increases the acceleration, and the rest of the force increases the mass.

However, the number is close enough that we can say that the effect of the Earth's gravity upon the photon is HUGE, and that your attempt to dazzle us with 9th grade physics has utterly failed.

Pastor Billy-Reuben

[Throe up]

Re: Flat Earth? Hell Yes!

1. Time zones were put into place at a meeting in Washington D.C. In AMERICA. Also, racist? That's hilarious coming from you.

2. I did have a response, but thought you were not deserving of it. I'll give it to you now. It has been ASSUMED in some parts of the world that it is flat. They had no evidence of it. In other parts of the ancient world, it was known to be round by many people. It was proven by their mathematicians.

3. He never said anything Anti-God. Not once, in his post.

4. How is Islam Satanic? They merely state that there was one different prophet, and they have a different name for their spiritual entity. (God)

Matthew 6:24 No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

2 Corinthians 6:14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?
15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?
16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you.

You stated, with these quotes to support you, that science and God were two different masters. Christian scientists use SCIENCE to attempt to prove God's word. Are they unclean? Are they traitors?

[Take That]

Re: Flat Earth? Hell Yes!

I don't see you answering his question. Maybe your arguments aren't quite as ironclad as you think?


Also, as to your "gravity bending light" idea, I think I can put that to rest.
First, we have the equation for the force of gravity between two objects.

F=G* (M#1 *M#2)/ D^2

F= Force
G= The Universal Gravity Constant: 6.67*10 ^-11
M#1 = The mass of the first object.
M#2 = The mass of the second object.
D = The distance between the two objects.

M#1 = A photon of light moving at the speed of light. (5.525 *10 ^-36 kg) Take note that a photon at rest has zero mass.
M#2 = Mass of the earth. (5.96*10 ^24 kg)
For D, pick an arbitrary number. Let's say, for the purpose of this equation, that the light is 100 m (meters) away.
Alright, now we put the numbers in place of the variables that represent them, and solve. I'll do this a step at a time.
F= (6.67 *10^-11) * ((5.525*10^-36) *(5.96*10^24))/ (100)
F= (6.67 *10^-11) * (3.2929*10^-11)/(100)
F= (6.67 *10^-11) * (3.2929*10^-13)
F= 2.1963643*10^-23
So, F= 0.0000000000000000000000021963643
That's an EXTREMELY small number. Almost no effect WHATSOEVER.

We can even use the zero for photon mass, if it suits you.
F= (6.67 *10^-11) * ((0) *(5.96*10^24))/ (100)
F= (6.67 *10^-11) * (0)/(100)
F= (6.67 *10^-11) * (0)
F=0
Therefore, there is NO EFFECT on a photon that is not moving. So, there is either little to no effect on a photon of light.

Mathematics and physics are wonderful things good sir.

[Brother Temperance]

Re: Flat Earth? Hell Yes!

Also, where does it say in the bible that gravity bends light? Quote it.

Also, those points weren't posted while I was posting my response.

1. What proof do you have that all foreigners are lazy?

Time zones. The racist Germans are renowned for their punctuality and efficiency, and yet they still get up an hour later than proper people do.

2. Again with the prejudice. I won't even dignify this with a response, other than the contempt in this sentence.

In other words, you don't have a response.

3. Good job with the taking what he said out of context. I'm sure you would make a great news reporter.

Good job with the complete and utter failure to defend his anti-God bigotry. I'm sure you'd make a great bar of soap.

4. Hmm, so anything not Christian is athiest?

No, some things are openly Satanic. Islam, for instance.

And you know there are christian scientists, right? There's even one on this site.

Yes, but those are Christian scientists, not secular scientists. True scientists start from God's word and look for proof to support it; they're not bounded by seculiar "rationality".

[SayvedByTheLord]

Re: Flat Earth? Hell Yes!

Brother Vomit,

God has sent you to us and we must save you from your path to hell.

Tell us about yourself

[Throe up]

Re: Flat Earth? Hell Yes!

Karl Marx had nothing to do with science. He was a person that studied societies, and basically invented communism. Learn history.

[Throe up]

Re: Flat Earth? Hell Yes!

Also, where does it say in the bible that gravity bends light? Quote it.

Also, those points weren't posted while I was posting my response.

1. What proof do you have that all foreigners are lazy?

2. Again with the prejudice. I won't even dignify this with a response, other than the contempt in this sentence.

3. Good job with the taking what he said out of context. I'm sure you would make a great news reporter.

4. Hmm, so anything not Christian is athiest? And you know there are christian scientists, right? There's even one on this site.

[Pastor Ezekiel]

Re: Flat Earth? Hell Yes!

Copy and paste? Ha. I wrote that myself. Search it.

I should ban you for that advice. A Google search of your name produces incredibly disgusting results.

We follow God's Holy Word. Not Karl Marx's latest calculations on how something comes from nothing.

[Brother Temperance]

Re: Flat Earth? Hell Yes!

My response was to Pastor Billy, to clarify.

In other words, you admit you have no response to my Divinely inspired and beautifully phrased points? I await your apology.