[joe707]

Re: Game Theory: Which Faith Gives the Best Payout?

I did show that you have to be Buddhist to get into Nirvana and you have to be Hindu to get into Moksha, but you have a point.

If Buddhism is true, then a good Buddhist should get a better reincarnation than a good non-Buddhist, and an evil Buddhist should get a worse reincarnation than an evil non-Buddhist, because he should have known better. The same goes for Hindus and Wiccans.

I edited the original matrix to take that into account.

Pastor Billy-Reuben

Thanks Pastor - the interesting thing also is that from these perspectives the tags 'good' and 'bad' themselves ultimately mean little, since the laws of karma care not for what labels people like to give themselves, but for what their souls have truly known.

Despite your three dollar words, you're just a simple Jesus hater who has come to Church to criticize those whom he does not know.

On the contrary!

[BibleBeliever]

Re: Game Theory: Which Faith Gives the Best Payout?

Some pagan mathematician might say there is no Nash equilibrium for the expanded game, because Christianity does not offer the highest payout for all religions. I say, John Nash was a demonic schizo, so there!

[Pastor Al E Pistle]

Re: Game Theory: Which Faith Gives the Best Payout?

So the toll is this denying of truth right now, and denying yourself the possibility of truth and salvation for every moment of this life. It is crippling to do so. Fear and hope are two sides of the same coin, one can not exist without the other. Both are painful.

My point exactly, Joe! That's why we need your money NOW! To get the proper amount of fear instilled into people before it's too late and AS GOD DEMANDS! Because we are TRUE CHRISTIANS(TM). We have promises to keep. And miles to go before we sleep. Remember, Joe. Miles to go before we sleep.

[Ezekiel Bathfire]

Re: Game Theory: Which Faith Gives the Best Payout?

I am saying that the minimum overall risk is not ‘0’ - it is painful and confusing for all your earthly days, because one's mind is always projected into an unknown future, dictated by an idea. That is not ‘neutral’.

I think you might be suffering from a bad dose of guilt and inadequacy. I’m sure you are skilled at something and others are impressed by a facility that you find second nature. I find being a True Christian™ second nature – no effort at all, now I am used to it. I do not worry, my life is a pleasant stroll to Eternity.

And is logic a useful tool to decide whether one should even approach God?

As this discussion revolves around Pascal’s wager, and as Pascal’s Wager concerns logic, your question is inappropriate.

However, all roads to The Lord are good roads.

Is that what first drew you to the church? A statistical exercise? Not for me.

No, but if only one soul is saved…

You are right, 70 years as a percentage of infinity is indeed nothing, but eternity is easily misunderstood. It does not exist in the future or the past, so such relations make no sense. It can not be computed or understood by the mind alone for this reason.

As long as God understands, is this not sufficient?

You are right, Pascal may not have expressly denied the possibility of salvation in this life, but it is implicit in the theology. Your example emphasizes this – the preconditions for salvation may happen right before earthly death but the actual salvation is always, always just beyond. You say it is never possible to have it now.

This is like saying that you pay insurance against an eventuality and do not know if it is worth it until the eventuality happens (and let's face it, it may not.) How many people you know sit around worrying about their insurance policies? Are they normal?

[joe707]

Re: Game Theory: Which Faith Gives the Best Payout?

No, but if only one soul is saved…

Yes, definitely one soul is worth helping I think.

As long as God understands, is this not sufficient?

That’s a very interesting question. I believe there are things we will never fully understand. But we have been created in God’s image, and many things have been offered as gifts to us, but they are known not by the mind but through other means.

How many people you know sit around worrying about their insurance policies? Are they normal?

Everyone worries about their insurance policies. It is there, even when they are not sitting around. Everyone wants insurance, and wants to be reassured that they can put something down now as payment for what might come to pass. This is fear, and also hope. Everyone worries about the future, where they will go, and whether they will be saved or the opposite. It is a real fear.

[Ezekiel Bathfire]

Re: Game Theory: Which Faith Gives the Best Payout?

That’s a very interesting question. I believe there are things we will never fully understand. But we have been created in God’s image, and many things have been offered as gifts to us, but they are known not by the mind but through other means.

Other means? Really? You have an example? (I bet you don't)

Everyone worries about their insurance policies. It is there, even when they are not sitting around. Everyone wants insurance, and wants to be reassured that they can put something down now as payment for what might come to pass.

I don’t see your problem. On the financial level, just buy insurance to the right coverage – perhaps a little more than you think you will ever need. On a spiritual level, merely obey the Word of The Lord.

This is fear, and also hope. Everyone worries about the future, where they will go, and whether they will be saved or the opposite. It is a real fear.

No they do not. I do not worry. You really are filled with fear, you keep going on and on about it - relax. I worry about you, I sometimes think you are abnormal with this fear and worry you keep banging on about. I simply cannot understand why this should be the case for you. Hope, what is the point of hope? God has a Plan – if we are in it, we need neither fear nor hope. If we are not in it, then fear and hope are pointless for we are lost whatever happens. Accept and put your trust in The Lord!
Do you think any reasonably Almighty Being would want His creations to go around in fear and trembling when He has given them a set of instructions by way of The Bible?

Why, it is like your being taught a skill by the very finest Craftsman, eventually he will judge you but He has given you all you need to know and you have paid attention – what examination could there be that would be difficult for a diligent student? None.

[joe707]

Re: Game Theory: Which Faith Gives the Best Payout?

Other means? Really? You have an example? (I bet you don't)

Well of course, but any example I give will necessarily be via language, that’s the problem. It’s tricky to convey to each other without getting lost in the word, and all of the stuff that goes with it. But put it this way – you would not deny the primacy of other experiences, so why deny yourself this in other areas? When you pick up a hot pan, you don’t need to refer to a book to tell you it’s going to burn. You doubt this is possible with other types of knowledge, I wonder why? What did Jesus mean in John 8:43 “Why do ye not understand my speech? Even because ye cannot hear my word”.

I don’t see your problem. On the financial level, just buy insurance to the right coverage – perhaps a little more than you think you will ever need. On a spiritual level, merely obey the Word of The Lord.No they do not. I do not worry. You really are filled with fear, you keep going on and on about it - relax. I worry about you, I sometimes think you are abnormal with this fear and worry you keep banging on about. I simply cannot understand why this should be the case for you. Hope, what is the point of hope? God has a Plan – if we are in it, we need neither fear nor hope. If we are not in it, then fear and hope are pointless for we are lost whatever happens. Accept and put your trust in The Lord![/FONT]

Ah, I think we are at cross purposes a bit here. I am saying fear is the driving force for following another, or following a word, and it is on sale here. Fear of what might happen should we take the wrong path, all the consequences of that, don’t you agree? The fear of hell, of eternal damnation, and the hope of heaven, salvation. If it is a fear for you no longer – because you are suitably insured - then at some point previously in your life I guess both of these might have been big concerns. That is what I meant; for those who have not been contented with the insurance policy being sold, there is a need for more.

And although you are happy to sit secure in the knowledge that you are part of God’s plan, I would be surprised if that question doesn’t arise once in a while for many, no matter how careful one is in making the payments. Life has a way of prompting the question.

[Nobar King]

Re: Game Theory: Which Faith Gives the Best Payout?

I'm glad you haven't forgotten us, Joe.

[joe707]

Re: Game Theory: Which Faith Gives the Best Payout?

No, certainly not Nobar! Though I have been dwelling a great deal on that statement.

It is really very interesting. There is a lot in John 8:43, don't you think?

[Nobar King]

Re: Game Theory: Which Faith Gives the Best Payout?

Yes.

[joe707]

Re: Game Theory: Which Faith Gives the Best Payout?

Good. Care to comment further?

Also Luke 11:39 And the Lord said unto him, Now do ye Pharisees make clean the outside of the cup and the platter; but your inward part is full of ravening and wickedness.

And Luke 11:40 Ye fools, did not he that made that which is without make that which is within also?

This is important stuff.

[Jedediah]

Re: Game Theory: Which Faith Gives the Best Payout?

If Christianity is true, then the Christian is rewarded no matter what, and the Muslim is punished no matter what.

This is an anointed teaching, Pastor. It's not a matter of "Good" versus "Bad" that determines where we will spend eternity. It is a matter of SAVED versus LOST.

Ephesians 2:8-9
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Not of works, lest any man should boast.

[LogicalPerson]

Re: Game Theory: Which Faith Gives the Best Payout?

Wait, so I should convert to Christianity because there's a better chance of a payout at the end? Or, in better terms, there is the best chance of NO LOSS at the end?

Even if you are proving for your religion, putting it into end-payout terms is bad.

That's like saying, become Christian just so you get the goods when you die. Not because you BELIEVE in God, or because you like God, or you like the bible.

You just compared religions to gambling, indeed. Even if your religion wins, I don't think that's a very nice way of phrasing why your religion is the "best".

[Redeemed Papist]

Re: Game Theory: Which Faith Gives the Best Payout?

Wait, so I should convert to Christianity because there's a better chance of a payout at the end? Or, in better terms, there is the best chance of NO LOSS at the end?

Even if you are proving for your religion, putting it into end-payout terms is bad.

That's like saying, become Christian just so you get the goods when you die. Not because you BELIEVE in God, or because you like God, or you like the bible.

You just compared religions to gambling, indeed. Even if your religion wins, I don't think that's a very nice way of phrasing why your religion is the "best".

It's the ONLY chance of a payout at the end.

[Ezekiel Bathfire]

Re: Game Theory: Which Faith Gives the Best Payout?

That's like saying, become Christian just so you get the goods when you die. Not because you BELIEVE in God, or because you like God, or you like the bible.

I don't know where to start with that one. It is so bad, it isn't even wrong!

In the beginning there is God
God makes man and offers him a deal - Eternal happiness
Satan offers man a deal - Eternal torture
Which entrepreneur will get your money? - A no-brainer eh?

To get the prize you have to believe in God, and why wouldn't you? He has offered you a good deal. What's not to like?

You just compared religions to gambling, indeed.

You did notice the title of the thread, didn't you?

Even if your religion wins, I don't think that's a very nice way of phrasing why your religion is the "best".

So, you'd seriously consider a religion that promised you as the final pay-out, "As much as you can eat for two weeks at The Olive Garden"?

Why would God make the offer if he didn't want you to consider it?