[ShelbyT]

Re: Atheists are No Smarter Than Dead Babies

What are you even on about? You're the unsaved trash here so get busy actually praising Jesus or get out!

That's not an argument either.

“Judge not, that you be not judged. For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and with the measure you use it will be measured to you. Why do you see the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when there is the log in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye." Matthew 5

You don't know if I'm saved! How dare you spew such vile lies. Are you not my brother? Act like one! I have confessed with my mouth Jesus is Lord and believed in my heart God raised him from the dead, I am saved. I never claimed you weren't saved, I'd prefer you keep the ad hominems out of this and keep the issue to looking at whether "Atheists are Smarter than Dead Babies."

[Bobby-Joe]

Re: Atheists are No Smarter Than Dead Babies

I believe we agree on those irrevocable truths. I also believe that is one of two lines of logic to follow from the point of the question. To be quite honest, I would fall along the same sentiments. However, when counseling and nailing it down to what we actually believe it is safer and sits far better with scripture to say "we just don't know." Because we truly don't know, you have read 2 Sam 12 and been presented with the question. Can we say that God doesn't grant his mercies on those who cannot comprehend his word due to the way he has created them. God very well may send all babies, aborted fetuses, and mentally handicapped people to hell, but he may not. Either way he is still a good God. It's not something we can certainly say because each side has evidence from scripture, therefore it's best to admit that only God knows.

Of course friend God is good. No were to we suggest or even imply that.

It's mankind that is awful.

As The Bible teaches us, ALL of us are BORN wicked, utterly depraved sinners that DESERVE eternal torment for just existing. How can God not punish us if God is good? We deserve it and He knows since He created us.

However God's infant love meant He sent His only son to take our punishment for us! But that only counts if we accept His Gift! GLORY! Look at me, I was born a sinner like the rest of the worthless scum called humanity, yet Jesus reached out His hand to me, I took it, and He saved me from Hell! PRAISE!

So the logical, justice and good answer is babies deserve to be damned to Hell until they accept Jesus as their savior.

[Pastor William Nathaniel Sampson]

Re: Atheists are No Smarter Than Dead Babies

Because we truly don't know, you have read 2 Sam 12 and been presented with the question. Can we say that God doesn't grant his mercies on those who cannot comprehend his word due to the way he has created them.

Ah, but did David ever go to be with his child in light of Acts 2?

29Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
30Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
31He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
32This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
33Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
34For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
35Until I make thy foes thy footstool.

Also, how can a child go to heaven without repenting and being Baptized as our very nature is toward sin? I will be glad to quote to you the pertinent scriptures at your request.

Are you somehow trying to claim that the Bible is contradicting itself?

[ShelbyT]

Re: Atheists are No Smarter Than Dead Babies

Of course friend God is good. No were to we suggest or even imply that.

It's mankind that is awful.

As The Bible teaches us, ALL of us are BORN wicked, utterly depraved sinners that DESERVE eternal torment for just existing. How can God not punish us if God is good? We deserve it and He knows since He created us.

However God's infant love meant He sent His only son to take our punishment for us! But that only counts if we accept His Gift! GLORY! Look at me, I was born a sinner like the rest of the worthless scum called humanity, yet Jesus reached out His hand to me, I took it, and He saved me from Hell! PRAISE!

So the logical, justice and good answer is babies deserve to be damned to Hell until they accept Jesus as their savior.

Damned. Yes Babies should be, but so should we. Only by the mercy of God are we allowed to enter heaven, but does God extend that to humans who aren't cognitive to make a choice? I would rather not partake in speaking for God where he doesn't speak for himself.

[Bobby-Joe]

Re: Atheists are No Smarter Than Dead Babies

Damned. Yes Babies should be, but so should we. Only by the mercy of God are we allowed to enter heaven, but does God extend that to humans who aren't cognitive to make a choice? I would rather not partake in speaking for God where he doesn't speak for himself.

Friend,

This seems very clear, by our very nature we deserve Hell. The choice we will always make on our own is the wrong one.

Do for example tribesmen in South America who have never seen a Christian our heard Christ's message of love escape Hell just because they are ignorant? Of course not.

[ShelbyT]

Re: Atheists are No Smarter Than Dead Babies

Ah, but did David ever go to be with his child in light of Acts 2?

29Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
30Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
31He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
32This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
33Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
34For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
35Until I make thy foes thy footstool.

Also, how can a child go to heaven without repenting and being Baptized as our very nature is toward sin? I will be glad to quote to you the pertinent scriptures at your request.

Are you somehow trying to claim that the Bible is contradicting itself?

That verse is not talking about David, but Jesus, Jesus wasn't abandoned to hell and his flesh didn't see corruption. Because "This Jesus God raised up." And David hadn't yet ascended into heaven, but he was still able to say that the "Lord said unto my Lord." This verse doesn't claim that David is now in hell, or that he will go to hell!
God shows grace on whom he chooses, you can make your argument however you like, but there's still no solid evidence that he doesn't show grace to babies. I'm not disagreeing with you Brother, I actually would lean closer to your side, but at the same time I would say you can't make a positive affirmation either way.

[ShelbyT]

Re: Atheists are No Smarter Than Dead Babies

Friend,

This seems very clear, by our very nature we deserve Hell. The choice we will always make on our own is the wrong one.

Do for example tribesmen in South America who have never seen a Christian our heard Christ's message of love escape Hell just because they are ignorant? Of course not.

No of course they do not escape Hell by ignorance "the heavens and the earth declare he is Lord", but does God allot consideration for someone who is not able to ever experience the heavens and the earth (aborted babies) or for those who cannot think? That is a question you or I cannot answer.

[Redeemed Papist]

Re: Atheists are No Smarter Than Dead Babies

That's not an argument either.

“Judge not, that you be not judged. For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and with the measure you use it will be measured to you. Why do you see the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when there is the log in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye." Matthew 5

You don't know if I'm saved! How dare you spew such vile lies. Are you not my brother? Act like one! I have confessed with my mouth Jesus is Lord and believed in my heart God raised him from the dead, I am saved. I never claimed you weren't saved, I'd prefer you keep the ad hominems out of this and keep the issue to looking at whether "Atheists are Smarter than Dead Babies."

I'm not debating with you, you godmocking false Christian scripture twister. I'm telling you to start praising Jesus and to stop trying to start arguments.

[Billy Bob Jenkins]

Re: Atheists are No Smarter Than Dead Babies

No of course they do not escape Hell by ignorance "the heavens and the earth declare he is Lord", but does God allot consideration for someone who is not able to ever experience the heavens and the earth (aborted babies) or for those who cannot think? That is a question you or I cannot answer.

True, but the Bible can answer this question, seeing as it is the word of God. Or don't you agree?

John 3:18King James Version (KJV)


18He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

[ShelbyT]

Re: Atheists are No Smarter Than Dead Babies

True, but the Bible can answer this question, seeing as it is the word of God. Or don't you agree?

I do in fact agree with that, like I said I lean toward your side. However, the verse in 2 Sam 12 throws that into a tough light, I would say it's far better to say either side is not sure. Although I lean to one side, I will not affirm something that is not clarified biblically, to a mother who has just lost an infant, a woman who has had an abortion or my aunt who is raising a child who is mentally handicapped. If there was biblical clarity yes, but as it stands I would not.

[Billy Bob Jenkins]

Re: Atheists are No Smarter Than Dead Babies

I do in fact agree with that, like I said I lean toward your side. However, the verse in 2 Sam 12 throws that into a tough light, I would say it's far better to say either side is not sure. Although I lean to one side, I will not affirm something that is not clarified biblically, to a mother who has just lost an infant, a woman who has had an abortion or my aunt who is raising a child who is mentally handicapped. If there was biblical clarity yes, but as it stands I would not.

But John 3:18 does not exclude or make any exceptions for unborn babies, infants, or retards; therefore it includes them. Do you need me to draw you a Venn Diagram?

You're not insinuating that Samuel contradicts John, are you?

[Bobby-Joe]

Re: Atheists are No Smarter Than Dead Babies

I do in fact agree with that, like I said I lean toward your side. However, the verse in 2 Sam 12 throws that into a tough light, I would say it's far better to say either side is not sure. Although I lean to one side, I will not affirm something that is not clarified biblically, to a mother who has just lost an infant, a woman who has had an abortion or my aunt who is raising a child who is mentally handicapped. If there was biblical clarity yes, but as it stands I would not.

Why wouldn't you say that to a woman who just had a miscarriage friend? I would think it would be a comfort to her that God realized the baby was so utterly, irredeemably evil He killed it before it had a chance to harm people.

And for 2 Sam 12, consider this; David was before Jesus sacrifice so David, though a Godly man, wasn't going to Heaven.

[ShelbyT]

Re: Atheists are No Smarter Than Dead Babies

But John 3:18 does not exclude or make any exceptions for unborn babies, infants, or retards; therefore it includes them. Do you need me to draw you a Venn Diagram?

You're not insinuating that Samuel contradicts John, are you?

Why would you assume that, does God's election contradict free-will and culpability. By no means!

[Billy Bob Jenkins]

Re: Atheists are No Smarter Than Dead Babies

Why would you assume that, does God's election contradict free-will and culpability. By no means!

You used the one scripture to defend a point that contradicted the point I was defending with the other scripture. So obviously either your understanding of John, or your understanding of Samuel, is incorrect.

[ShelbyT]

Re: Atheists are No Smarter Than Dead Babies

You used the one scripture to defend a point that contradicted the point I was defending with the other scripture. So obviously either your understanding of John, or your understanding of Samuel, is incorrect.

. . . I just did a bit of research, thank God you are right.