[handmaiden]

Re: God Hates Asexuals

Sister Basilissa, thank you for your hard-hitting and clear-eyed defense of God's Holy Word.

Obedience to a Perfect God demands much of His Children, but the rewards are beyond material measure.


If I may add a small point to this observation of yours: ". . . in context of God ordering to murder babies - when they are sacrificed to the false gods, that makes them "innocent," but when Israelites come to commit genocide, they are in line to be eliminated as well."


What is crucial to note here is the over-reaching theme of adherence to God's commands. God says that we may not worship false gods, so a child sacrificed to a false god is innocent of the specific sin of idolatry. (Unless they volunteered themselves as tribute, which is unlikely but not completely beyond the scope of reality.) A lack of culpability in regards to one sin, however, does not translate into being sinless before the Lord.


In contrast, any strapping young man claiming affinity with any of the tribes of Israel would be condemned for not volunteering to take part in any military action that was so ordered by God. And that includes the numerous battles in which children of false worshipers are part of the body count. The infant children slated to be slaughtered would not be the Lord's concern. The soldier questioning the slaughter would be on the Lord's short list for execution.


Because of my gender, I can be a bit tenderhearted at times when I imagine child corpses, which is why I am not burdened with authority within the church. But I do recall chapters of the Bible in which God is very vexed with those who didn't follow through when they were told to wipe out every living thing in an enemy enclave. I think that there's even one story about some fellows who didn't bother to show up for the slaughter and guess what happened to those guys? Hint: It involves still more slaughter.


Nonetheless, I do not like to strew spoilers about for people with a sincere interest in learning about the Word of God. So, I will fall back on my trusty admonishment to read the Bible in its entirety. For my money, you can never go wrong in urging others to read God's Own Words given to His followers through His chosen scribes.


After all, who needs to listen to me when they can listen to God?


Not Originally Yours,


Handmaiden

[Princess L]

Re: God Hates Asexuals

Amen. All so-called "good people" who worked their whole lives to improve the lives of other human beings but did not love God truly deserve to be punished in Hell forever.

Agreed. Sadly no amount of "good works" is enough to cleanse the pernicious blot of sin.

I am very sorry if the Holy Bible doesn't make sense to you.

Matthew 16:26-27
26 For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?
27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

Matthew 25:34-40
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

Mark 10:17-21 And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?
[. . .]
19 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour thy father and mother.
20 And he answered and said unto him, Master, all these have I observed from my youth.
21 Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.

Revelation 20:12-13
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

Scripture makes perfect sense to me, your extrascriptural beliefs don't though.

Well, that refers to people who repented for their sins while still alive. So if for example Hitler and Stalin repented at the last moment before their deaths, we will meet them in Heaven.

However, this passage certainly does not refer to people who did not repent while alive.

I think that parable seems to bring more support to what I said - that if Stalin, Hitler, Pol Pot, etc decided to repent at the last moment, they will be equally rewarded.

Why?

We are talking about the same God, right? The God that ordered Israelites to kill everything that breathes (and yes, that includes infants), just out of fear of cultural diffusion?

Deuteronomy 20:16-18
16 But of the cities of these people, which the Lord thy God doth give thee for an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth:
17 But thou shalt utterly destroy them; namely, the Hittites, and the Amorites, the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites; as the Lord thy God hath commanded thee:
18 That they teach you not to do after all their abominations, which they have done unto their gods; so should ye sin against the Lord your God.

2 Chronicles 15:12-13
12 And they entered into a covenant to seek the Lord God of their fathers with all their heart and with all their soul;
13 That whosoever would not seek the Lord God of Israel should be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman.

Ezekiel 9:6 Slay utterly old and young, both maids, and little children, and women: but come not near any man upon whom is the mark; and begin at my sanctuary. Then they began at the ancient men which were before the house.

He had the Israelites kill them sure, but does he ever say that those infants were also damned?

And the same God who ordered the massacre of 42 little children just because they laughed at a bald man:

2 Kings 2:23-24
23 And he went up from thence unto Bethel: and as he was going up by the way, there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head.
24 And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the Lord. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them.

Of course, they were obviously mature enough to know that they were mocking a prophet.

And please do not forget, that the sound of little babies brains splashing on rocks is pleasant to God:

Psalm 137:9 Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones.

And it's also the same God who enjoys when heathen babies are dashed to pieces with swords, and pregnant women's bellies are open so both they and their worthless fetuses can die:

Hosea 13:16 Samaria shall become desolate; for she hath rebelled against her God: they shall fall by the sword: their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up.

All of this is the Wrath of God. The same Wrath of God also nearly destroyed humanity during the Flood - and while it absolutely certain that all of the adolescents and adults living at that time were vile individuals, some people might argue that the infants whom God drowned at that time were not as guilty (only bearing the debt of the original sin but nothing sinful of their own). The same goes for little babies killed in Sodom and Gomorrah.

I would be very careful implying that the death of children is pleasing to God.

Agreed. Which proves that baptism of little children is just a worthless waste of time, money, and water.

I do appreciate the symbolic meaning still, but yeah I agree that infant baptism does nothing towards salvation.

I read the Bible. All of it, not just some selected verses which sound nice and conform to what I want to think about God.

I agree, I just pick out certain verses because that'd be more specific than copy/pasting the entire bible :p

For your information, Esau was the son of Isaac, and twin brother of Jacob. Nothing there about being illegitimate.

(EDIT: just saw your correction post. Still, God hated Esau when Esau was still in the womb - do you think Esau was already a fornicator in the womb?!)

Where exactly does it say God "hated" Esau while he was still in the womb?

Eternal torment for a microscopically short life? Yes, our God certainly knows how to hold a grudge. For ever and ever and ever and ever. Thankfully most human parents aren't that merciless.

Uh, yeah actually. It's not a grudge, it's just a perfect divine being executing just punishment on knowingly disobedient members of mankind. The wages of sin are eternal death and torment after all.

The Bible verses above prove the opposite.

That website sells you baloney.

• Points 1 and 2 have nothing to do with children's fate after their death.
• Point 3 makes no sense as in Old Testament tradition all souls went to Sheol, no Hell nor Heaven (as you might remember, Jesus after His death descended to Sheol and fished out the decent souls on a trip to Heaven). Even if we assume that Job possessed the knowledge of what Jesus was going to do all these centuries later, "never seeing light" is definitely not the same as "being in Heaven."
• The same goes for point 4 - being in darkness (=death) is not the same as being in Heaven (why does the author of this article imagine Heaven as a dark place?!).
• And point 5 seems particularly interesting if we read it in context of God ordering to murder babies - when they are sacrificed to the false gods, that makes them "innocent," but when Israelites come to commit genocide, they are in line to be eliminated as well.

I apologize for a very lengthy message. Going back to listening to the debate now.

Yeah it wasn't the best reference. On a side note what'd you think of the debate?

[Brother Gonzalez]

Re: God Hates Asexuals

He had the Israelites kill them sure, but does he ever say that those infants were also damned?

So why did he ordered to kill them? If they were not damned? For pleasure?

Of course, they were obviously mature enough to know that they were mocking a prophet.

How do you know? The only reference is they were "little children", and little sounds "inmature" to me.

I would be very careful implying that the death of children is pleasing to God.

You are saying that he orders to kill undamned children, care to explain why? Did they go to heaven? Where do you get that?

[Princess L]

Re: God Hates Asexuals

So why did he ordered to kill them if they were not damned? For pleasure?

Because they were of the races that God commanded the Israelites to wipe out from the promise land. The Bible makes that very clear.

How do you know? The only reference is they were "little children", and little sounds "inmature" to me.

"Go up thou bald head!"

3-year-olds aren't that clever.

They were obviously old enough to understand who he was and that they were deliberately making fun of him.

You are saying that he orders to kill undamned children, care to explain why? Did they go to heaven? Where do you get that?

Go back and actually read my other answers.

[Mary Etheldreda]

Re: God Hates Asexuals

Wow, you're totally rude. It's obvious your father didn't beat you enough. Not only are you going to Hell, but you want us to experience it before the Good Lord boots you off this earth?

[Princess L]

Re: God Hates Asexuals

Wow, you're totally rude. It's obvious your father didn't beat you enough. Not only are you going to Hell, but you want us to experience it before the Good Lord boots you off this earth?

I'm not rude, just sarcastically honest.

[Brother Gonzalez]

Re: God Hates Asexuals

Because they were of the races that God commanded the Israelites to wipe out from the promise land. The Bible makes that very clear.

So God commands to kill little children, and they go to hell. You know that. We can agree. And compared with Roman Gods, our God is stronger, and kills more people. I'm proud of it.

"Go up thou bald head!"
3-year-olds aren't that clever.


They were obviously old enough to understand who he was and that they were deliberately making fun of him.

Yes, they are that clever at 3 year old. Maybe you were not.


See what happens? A matter of interpretation. I've seen 3 year old kids being much more clever than "Go up thou bald head" which is, at 3 year old, only an innocent joke. Strong enough to make God angry, of course.


It is not like they were saying "hey you weirdo, you are masking your lack of social skills to get laid or your gay inclinations with something that you call asexuality" That would be mean (though not so clever, I know)

Go back and actually read my other answers.

There is nothing in your previous answers, only your beliefs.


And about the rudness, the lack of sex makes people rude. Happens all the time. Man up, get married, and that will pass.

[Princess L]

Re: God Hates Asexuals

So God commands to kill little children, and they go to hell. You know that. We can agree. And compared with Roman Gods, our God is stronger, and kills more people. I'm proud of it.

Okay you're just not paying attention to what I even said. I'll wait for Basilissa to reply, she can actually make decent logical arguments.

Yes, they are that clever at 3 year old. Maybe you were not.


See what happens? A matter of interpretation. I've seen 3 year old kids being much more clever than "Go up thou bald head" which is, at 3 year old, only an innocent joke. Strong enough to make God angry, of course.


It is not like they were saying "hey you weirdo, you are masking your lack of social skills to get laid or your gay inclinations with something that you call asexuality" That would be mean (though not so clever, I know)

Logic really is lost on you isn't it. The point I was trying to make was that what the Bible quotes them as saying indicates that, while they were referred to as children, they were definitely old enough to craft such an insult. The argument from your side was that that excerpt is an example of God sending infants to hell. These weren't infants, they were obviously quite mature.

There is nothing in your previous answers, only your beliefs.

And your posts aren't about your beliefs? Just your way of saying that you don't have a good response toward them. If you can, prove to me using the Word of God that I am clearly in error.

And about the rudeness, the lack of sex makes people rude. Happens all the time. Man up, get married, and that will pass.

Chapter and verse that says that please.
Otherwise that's nothing more than just your opinion.

[Brother Gonzalez]

Re: God Hates Asexuals

Logic really is lost on you isn't it. The point I was trying to make was that what the Bible quotes them as saying indicates that, while they were referred to as children, they were definitely old enough to craft such an insult. The argument from your side was that that excerpt is an example of God sending infants to hell. These weren't infants, they were obviously quite mature.

Trying is the key. You were trying, you did not make it.
They were little children. Why can't you accept that? It is what is written. They don't need to be "mature" to make that joke. That's where you are making things up, twisting the argument to fit your beliefs.


Please quote where did I say "infants". I cannot find it, but as you are so clever...

Chapter and verse that says that please.
Otherwise that's nothing more than just your opinion.

See, that is my opinion. I did not say that God says it.

[Basilissa]

Re: God Hates Asexuals

I apologize for a delay in my response.

Agreed. Sadly no amount of "good works" is enough to cleanse the pernicious blot of sin.

Exactly. So we can agree that God wants the vast majority of humanity to go roast in . At least 2/3 of humans alive today will roast in Hell for following false religions - that's a generous count which gives all Christian denominations a path to Salvation, but if we take under account that there are many more false Christians who do not actually adhere to the Holy Bible, the actual percentage of people who are alive today and who have a fighting chance of truly accepting and going to Heaven is much smaller. Whichever count we take, the percentage of people having an actual chance of being Saved decreases exponentially the more we go back in history.

Every day I thank for loving me more than millions and millions of people who die being raised in another religion and therefore being indoctrinated to believe that Christianity is a false religion. The cultural indoctrination is so strong that changing an individual's religion without some form of coercion is practically impossible. A well-conducted genocide is a good example of such coercion of the survivors of such an event. Unfortunately, genocide, while highly praised in the Holy Bible, has been frowned upon by the Western civilization in relatively recent history.

Scripture makes perfect sense to me, your extrascriptural beliefs don't though.

...then he shall reward every man according to his works.

...Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.

...and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

Please explain: how are these verses extrascriptural? Or maybe you don't have these verses in your Bible or something? (to see the complete reference to where in the Bible these verses are, please see my previous post again).

He had the Israelites kill them sure, but does he ever say that those infants were also damned?

They did not follow the One True Religion, so of course they were damned. There is no Biblical evidence that babies that die in their infancy are somehow saved - we've been through that already, remember?

Of course, they were obviously mature enough to know that they were mocking a prophet.

And your interpretation of "little children" as "mature enough" doesn't strike you as extrascriptural?

I would be very careful implying that the death of children is pleasing to God.

1 Samuel 15:2-3
2 Thus saith the Lord of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt.
3 Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.

This is just another example of God ordering a genocide. He specifically asks to kill the infants and sucklings.

He wants it to happen. He orders Israelites to do it. That means He likes it. That means it is pleasant for Him.

Just think about it for a minute: do you often wish things which are unpleasant to happen to you?

Where exactly does it say God "hated" Esau while he was still in the womb?

Well, He decided when the twins were still in the womb that one will serve the other:

Genesis 25:23-26
23 And the LORD said unto her, Two nations [are] in thy womb, and two manner of people shall be separated from thy bowels; and [the one] people shall be stronger than [the other] people; and the elder shall serve the younger.
24 And when her days to be delivered were fulfilled, behold, [there were] twins in her womb.
25 And the first came out red, all over like an hairy garment; and they called his name Esau.
26 And after that came his brother out, and his hand took hold on Esau's heel; and his name was called Jacob: and Isaac [was] threescore years old when she bare them.

Uh, yeah actually. It's not a grudge, it's just a perfect divine being executing just punishment on knowingly disobedient members of mankind. The wages of sin are eternal death and torment after all.

And this, of course, is perfectly just, that the descendants of the guilty people should be punished forever.

Of course, this is not the only example of people being punished by God for the sins of their ancestors:

Exodus 34:7 Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear [the guilty]; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth [generation].

Deuteronomy 23:2 A bastard shall not enter into the congregation of the LORD; even to his tenth generation shall he not enter into the congregation of the LORD.

Because they were of the races that God commanded the Israelites to wipe out from the promise land. The Bible makes that very clear.

Isn't it truly heart-warming to know that there are cases when genocide is not only justified in the eyes of God, but actually ordered by Him?

3-year-olds aren't that clever.

I'm guessing you haven't encountered too many three year olds. Let me tell you: yes they are clever.

They were obviously old enough to understand who he was and that they were deliberately making fun of him.

Wait, hold on, where is that interpretation coming from? Where is the evidence?

What was that word again, that you like to use so much? Ah yes, here it is: extrascriptural.

[Princess L]

Re: God Hates Asexuals

Trying is the key. You were trying, you did not make it.
They were little children. Why can't you accept that? It is what is written. They don't need to be "mature" to make that joke. That's where you are making things up, twisting the argument to fit your beliefs.

.......and you totally missed the point again

Please quote where did I say "infants". I cannot find it, but as you are so clever...

It was part of the discussion Basilissa and I are having. Where did I say you were the one who said it?

See, that is my opinion. I did not say that God says it.

And yet you have a curious lack of clear scripture to back up your supposed opinion.

[handmaiden]

Re: God Hates Asexuals

Logic really is lost on you isn't it. The point I was trying to make was that what the Bible quotes them as saying indicates that, while they were referred to as children, they were definitely old enough to craft such an insult. The argument from your side was that that excerpt is an example of God sending infants to hell. These weren't infants, they were obviously quite mature.

I can't help but feel that when the Bible uses the word "children" it's not talking about 17 and a half year olds who still can't be legally charged as adults. The verse does specify "little children", right?


And speaking of charges, I am very pleased to see that you are willing to accept the Lord's sovereignty in choosing to have a ferocious predator tear 42 little children to bloody pieces because they dared to hurl hurtful comments at an important person.


It's good that you aren't questioning the fact that some people just deserve more respect than others and that God can and does kill youngsters when it suits His Holy Purpose. Actually, that's great, because I feel that we have finally found some area of consensus.


Furthermore, you are making the effort to list Bible verses, which is what we here at Landover Baptist like to see. Of course, you still seem to favor the verses that fit comfortably with a 21st century sensibility, whereas God is eternal and unchanging.


Really, when you think about it, if something were truly important to Him, you would think that He would have it codified in His Word. Which he did, actually. The problem for modern-minded "Christians" is that they continue to value values that aren't strictly Biblical.


God doesn't make powerful, dramatic pronouncements anywhere in His Word about individual liberty or the evils of slavery, just to name a couple of concepts that people seem to embrace now, but which God, Himself, did not see fit to mention.


God in the Bible makes powerful, dramatic statements about making fun of bald men, but He doesn't directly tell us that we can't own people. By the way, there's no logic lost in the preceding statement. I am only setting forth what is and is not in the Bible. You can fault my prose if you don't think that a she-bear tearing apart 42 little children isn't particularly dramatic, but you can't dispute the story as it is detailed in the Bible.


How do you feel about the Bible, by the way? I am curious. My position here is that it is the Holy Word of the One True God and has to be taken as sacred from the first page to the last. It's not a document that can be amended with the times, because God Himself said that He is unchanging and that we aren't supposed to pick and choose which of His Words to obey.


Inquisitively Yours,


Handmaiden

[Basilissa]

Re: God Hates Asexuals

Okay you're just not paying attention to what I even said.

Of course he doesn't. Brother Unbridgeable only pays attention to the Word of God.

I'll wait for Basilissa to reply, she can actually make decent logical arguments.

My arguments are not logical; God hates logic:

1 Corinthians 3:19: For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.

1 Corinthians 8:2-3: And if any man think that he knoweth any thing, he knoweth nothing yet as he ought to know.
But if any man love God, the same is known of him.

1 Corinthians 13:8: Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

I simply repeat what the Bible says, without thinking too much whether what the Bible says is logical, ethical, etc. Too much thinking about the logic and ethics of the Holy Bible could turn you into a filthy atheist.

I do await your response, though.

[Brother Gonzalez]

Re: God Hates Asexuals

.......and you totally missed the point again
It was part of the discussion Basilissa and I are having. Where did I say you were the one who said it?

I'm not on any "side", I cannot be. You are a perv, I will not be on your side. Basilissa and Handmaiden are True Christians, and I am not, so I cannot be on their side. When you say your "side" it was me, and only me.

I dropped the argument on infants when you said -correctly- that they were killed for being from a particular race (being damned from birth then...)


So I was arguing your point on "little children" being mature. The rest was being argued by other people. You have nothing on the matter I'm interested. Moving on then.

And yet you have a curious lack of clear scripture to back up your supposed opinion.

And that is why it is called an opinion ("supposed" opinion?). If I had scripture to back that up, then it would be a fact.

[Hereigns]

Re: God Hates Asexuals

I swear, all you guys to is spread hate to the LBGT community. For pete's sake, you wanna claim that catholics are real christians?? You guys took almost all of the catholic teachings and modified it to fit the salvation by faith alone! And then you decided to take out 6 books of the bible, "But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: 14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions [paradosis i.e. law or ordinance]which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle." And this was in YOUR bible! Not only is it scripture, but traditions. Jesus' "tradition" was to be tolerant and LOVING towards sinners. You don't have to agree with the life style, but at least be RESPECTFUL and stop acting like you are all perfect and righteous...cause you aren't.