[FeministEngineer]

Re: God HATES Rational Thinking!

I don't get it. How can you be a feminista and and engineer. Don't you have to be a woman to be a feminista, you know, biologically?

Confused.

God Bless.

I guess I just don't understand where the confusion comes from. I know lots of men who agree with me that women deserve equal rights. Also, women are perfectly capable of being engineers. Hence, its very easy to be a female feminist who is also an engineer.

[Dr Laurence Niles]

Re: God HATES Rational Thinking!

I guess I just don't understand where the confusion comes from. I know lots of men who agree with me that women deserve equal rights. Also, women are perfectly capable of being engineers. Hence, its very easy to be a female feminist who is also an engineer.

Woah there, sweet cheeks! You've got things way out of wack, I'll you what

The Bible tells us exactly how to treat women and how you should treat your wife (I've added some cliff notes for the difficult bits to help you understand).

Genesis 2:18 And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.
(Women were created to assist men.)

Genesis 3:16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee .

Exodus 20:17 Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's.
(Women are property. Less valuable than a house but more valuable than slaves and livestock.)

Psalms 6:23 For the commandment is a lamp; and the law is light; and reproofs of instruction are the way of life:
24 To keep thee from the evil woman, from the flattery of the tongue of a strange woman.
25 Lust not after her beauty in thine heart; neither let her take thee with her eyelids.

Matthew 18:25 But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife , and children, and all that he had , and payment to be made.
(Jesus considers women (and children) to be property that can be sold.)

1st Corinthians 7:1 Now concerning the things whereof ye wrote unto me: It is good for a man not to touch a woman.
1st Corinthians 7:2 Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband.

1st Corinthians 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.
1st Corinthians 11:4 Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonoureth his head.
1st Corinthians 11:5 But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven.
1st Corinthians 11:6 For if the woman be not covered, let her also be shorn: but if it be a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be covered.
1st Corinthians 11:7 For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man.
1st Corinthians 11:8 For the man is not of the woman; but the woman of the man.
1st Corinthians 11:9 Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man.
1st Corinthians 11:10 For this cause ought the woman to have power on her head because of the angels.

1st Corinthians 14:34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.
1st Corinthians 14:35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

1st Timothy 2:9 In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array;
1st Timothy 2:10 But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works.
1st Timothy 2:11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
1st Timothy 2:12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
1st Timothy 2:13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
1st Timothy 2:14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
1st Timothy 2:15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing , if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.

Ephesians 5:22 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.
Ephesians 5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.
Ephesians 5:24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.

Colossians 3:18 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as it is fit in the Lord

Titus 2:3 The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things;
Titus 2:4 That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children,
Titus 2:5 To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed .

1st Peter 3:1 Likewise, ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands; that, if any obey not the word, they also may without the word be won by the conversation of the wives;
1st Peter 3:2 While they behold your chaste conversation coupled with fear.
1st Peter 3:3 Whose adorning let it not be that outward adorning of plaiting the hair, and of wearing of gold, or of putting on of apparel;
1st Peter 3:4 But let it be the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible, even the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price.
1st Peter 3:5 For after this manner in the old time the holy women also, who trusted in God, adorned themselves, being in subjection unto their own husbands:
1st Peter 3:6 Even as Sara obeyed Abraham, calling him lord: whose daughters ye are, as long as ye do well, and are not afraid with any amazement.

Revelation 14:4 These are they which were not defiled with women ; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

Leviticus 15:19-30
And if a woman have an issue, and her issue in her flesh be blood, she shall be put apart seven days: and whosoever toucheth her shall be unclean until the even. And every thing that she lieth upon in her separation shall be unclean: every thing also that she sitteth upon shall be unclean. And whosoever toucheth her bed shall wash his clothes, and bathe himself in water, and be unclean until the even. And whosoever toucheth any thing that she sat upon shall wash his clothes, and bathe himself in water, and be unclean until the even. And if it be on her bed, or on any thing whereon she sitteth, when he toucheth it, he shall be unclean until the even. And if any man lie with her at all, and her flowers be upon him, he shall be unclean seven days; and all the bed whereon he lieth shall be unclean. And if a woman have an issue of her blood many days out of the time of her separation, or if it run beyond the time of her separation; all the days of the issue of her uncleanness shall be as the days of her separation: she shall be unclean. Every bed whereon she lieth all the days of her issue shall be unto her as the bed of her separation: and whatsoever she sitteth upon shall be unclean, as the uncleanness of her separation. And whosoever toucheth those things shall be unclean, and shall wash his clothes, and bathe himself in water, and be unclean until the even. But if she be cleansed of her issue, then she shall number to herself seven days, and after that she shall be clean. And on the eighth day she shall take unto her two turtles, or two young pigeons, and bring them unto the priest, to the door of the tabernacle of the congregation. And the priest shall offer the one for a sin offering, and the other for a burnt offering; and the priest shall make an atonement for her before the LORD for the issue of her uncleanness.

Just how do you expect to find a decent man to marry you when you are stinking of swarfega and covered in grime like a black and white minstrel?

You need to get your priorities right, little miss. The only way YOU are gonna get into Heaven is by having kids, young lady!

YIC

[Atheist1320]

Re: God HATES Rational Thinking!

Why are you all debating about something that does not exist. you all have a disease of the mind. There is no greater force or higher power. Man wrote the bible for domination, to control the masses. Something you preachers do every week.

As an atheist I am free of this psychological hold and see religion for the true evil it is.

Please stop spreading your disease.

[Basilissa]

Re: God HATES Rational Thinking!

Why are you all debating about something that does not exist. you all have a disease of the mind. There is no greater force or higher power. Man wrote the bible for domination, to control the masses. Something you preachers do every week.

As an atheist I am free of this psychological hold and see religion for the true evil it is.

Please stop spreading your disease.

Hello sweetie, I see you are full of anger. Why don't you try to act like a rational human being you (I presume) claim to be, and introduce yourself in the appropriate section of this Godly forum, so we can get to know you better?

I'll pray for your salvation in the meantime.

[Atheist1320]

Re: God HATES Rational Thinking!

First I would like to say, Thank you for the Infraction, I do indeed do not believe in any god. just like you are closed minded to opinion.

I live my life as a peaceful human being. My mind is free.

when you have people who have the same mind disease they all feel they are normal, but they are not... This forum post says, God hates, but in you eyes he does not, where is the rational thought there...

This bible is a book of hate like the koran and has killed more humans in the name of, is this rational?

the bible hates woman, whereas I treat them with equal status. 50/50 responsibility. Any man who exploits woman is not a man in my book...(which is not the bible)

the simple truth is, your mind is so locked down and you fail to see the truth. even reading this your probably shaking you head. this is denial. read that again.... D.E.N.I.A.L.....I bet you are scared of the dark, in case the devil or boogyman comes and grabs your foot from under your bed...

By giving me an infraction your god will punish you. Bad things will start to happen...

No seriously, lets be rational.... Nothing will happen... there is no omnipotent god....

Horray for science and booooo for religion.

I have a challenge.

go one month without worshipping god, or reading your book. Step back and observe and see the world. If anything Bad or Good happens do not attribute it to religion. I bet you can't do it without psychologically appointing a reason. this reason is thought and people always want to rationalise belief, but always there is a simple non-supernatural reason.

People are free to choose there own path in life, and I have done that through making my own decisions and using my own through processes. I presume you feel you have done the same, but one fundamental difference is you were pulled into the flock.

Name me an ethical statement made or an action performed by a believer that could not have been made or performed by a non-believer.

[Dr Laurence Niles]

Re: God HATES Rational Thinking!

I have a challenge.

go one month without worshipping god, or reading your book. Step back and observe and see the world. If anything Bad or Good happens do not attribute it to religion. I bet you can't do it without psychologically appointing a reason. this reason is thought and people always want to rationalise belief, but always there is a simple non-supernatural reason.

That sounds like a fair challenge an I would accept it: if you would accept the challenge to live by the Bible for a comparable length of time.

A time limited behavioural experiment, if you will.

What say you?

Name me an ethical statement made or an action performed by a believer that could not have been made or performed by a non-believer.

"It is good to love Jesus as you would love yourself". An ethical statement that would not rationally be performed by an atheist: that was easy.

You really are full of yourself, aren't you?

God bless.

[Pim Pendergast]

Re: God HATES Rational Thinking!

when you have people who have the same mind disease they all feel they are normal, but they are not.

The majority of people are going to hell.

Mat 7:14-15 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

I suppose you feel normal in their company. But having numbers on your side doesn't make you right.

This forum post says, God hates, but in you eyes he does not, where is the rational thought there...

In our eyes, God does hate.

Lev 20:23 And ye shall not walk in the manners of the nation, which I cast out before you: for they committed all these things, and therefore I abhorred them.

Lev 26:30 And I will destroy your high places, and cut down your images, and cast your carcases upon the carcases of your idols, and my soul shall abhor you.

Deut 32:19 And when the LORD saw it, he abhorred them, because of the provoking of his sons, and of his daughters.

Ps 5:5 The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.

Ps 5:6 Thou shalt destroy them that speak leasing: the LORD will abhor the bloody and deceitful man.

Ps 10:3 For the wicked boasteth of his heart's desire, and blesseth the covetous, whom the LORD abhorreth.

Ps 11:5 The LORD trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth.

Ps 53:5 There were they in great fear, where no fear was: for God hath scattered the bones of him that encampeth against thee: thou hast put them to shame, because God hath despised them.

Ps 73:20 As a dream when one awaketh; so, O Lord, when thou awakest, thou shalt despise their image.

Ps 78:59 When God heard this, he was wroth, and greatly abhorred Israel:

Ps 106:40 Therefore was the wrath of the LORD kindled against his people, insomuch that he abhorred his own inheritance.

Prov 6:16-19 These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him: A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief, A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.

Prov 22:14 The mouth of strange women is a deep pit: he that is abhorred of the LORD shall fall therein.

Lam 2:6 And he hath violently taken away his tabernacle, as if it were of a garden: he hath destroyed his places of the assembly: the LORD hath caused the solemn feasts and sabbaths to be forgotten in Zion, and hath despised in the indignation of his anger the king and the priest.

Hos 9:15 All their wickedness is in Gilgal: for there I hated them: for the wickedness of their doings I will drive them out of mine house, I will love them no more: all their princes are revolters.

Am 5:21 I hate, I despise your feast days, and I will not smell in your solemn assemblies.

Zec 11:8 Three shepherds also I cut off in one month; and my soul lothed them, and their soul also abhorred me.

Mal 1:3 And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness.

Rom 9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

Rev 2:6; 15 But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitanes, which I also hate.

This bible is a book of hate like the koran and has killed more humans in the name of, is this rational?

I can assure you the Bible hasn't killed anyone.

the bible hates woman, whereas I treat them with equal status. 50/50 responsibility.

How does that work with childbirth?

the simple truth is, your mind is so locked down and you fail to see the truth. even reading this your probably shaking you head. this is denial. read that again....

Okay.

D.E.N.I.A.L.....

Denial implies that deep down we know the truth but we're suppressing it. That's what atheists do.

Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

You're probably shaking your head right now. That's denial. Read it again. D-E-N-I-A-L.

I bet you are scared of the dark, in case the devil or boogyman comes and grabs your foot from under your bed...

I'm not scared. God's angels protect me.

Ps 34:7 The angel of the Lord encampeth round about them that fear him, and delivereth them.

I have a challenge. go one month without worshipping god, or reading your book.

I simply cannot do that.

Mat 4:4b Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

That would be like me challenging you not to show up to work for a month in order to convince you your boss doesn't exist.

Step back and observe and see the world. If anything Bad or Good happens do not attribute it to religion. I bet you can't do it without psychologically appointing a reason. this reason is thought and people always want to rationalise belief, but always there is a simple non-supernatural reason.

What simple non-supernatural reason is there for miracles, like when I lost my car keys and prayed and then God helped me find them?

People are free to choose there own path in life, and I have done that through making my own decisions and using my own through processes. I presume you feel you have done the same, but one fundamental difference is you were pulled into the flock.

Did you read the OP? I do not feel I've done the same. God hates rational thinking.

Name me an ethical statement made or an action performed by a believer that could not have been made or performed by a non-believer.

Name an ethical statement made or an action performed by a believer that could have been made or performed by a non-believer.

Jer 13:23 Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil.

[Atheist1320]

Re: God HATES Rational Thinking!

That sounds like a fair challenge an I would accept it: if you would accept the challenge to live by the Bible for a comparable length of time.

A time limited behavioural experiment, if you will.

What say you?



"It is good to love Jesus as you would love yourself". An ethical statement that would not rationally be performed by an atheist: that was easy.

You really are full of yourself, aren't you?

God bless.

you still have not answered the question, I love my family as I love myself, and as the moral of this is love... NEXT !!!

For the challenge, been there... have you?

[Atheist1320]

Re: God HATES Rational Thinking!

The majority of people are going to hell.

Mat 7:14-15 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

I suppose you feel normal in their company. But having numbers on your side doesn't make you right.



In our eyes, God does hate.

Lev 20:23 And ye shall not walk in the manners of the nation, which I cast out before you: for they committed all these things, and therefore I abhorred them.

Lev 26:30 And I will destroy your high places, and cut down your images, and cast your carcases upon the carcases of your idols, and my soul shall abhor you.

Deut 32:19 And when the LORD saw it, he abhorred them, because of the provoking of his sons, and of his daughters.

Ps 5:5 The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.

Ps 5:6 Thou shalt destroy them that speak leasing: the LORD will abhor the bloody and deceitful man.

Ps 10:3 For the wicked boasteth of his heart's desire, and blesseth the covetous, whom the LORD abhorreth.

Ps 11:5 The LORD trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth.

Ps 53:5 There were they in great fear, where no fear was: for God hath scattered the bones of him that encampeth against thee: thou hast put them to shame, because God hath despised them.

Ps 73:20 As a dream when one awaketh; so, O Lord, when thou awakest, thou shalt despise their image.

Ps 78:59 When God heard this, he was wroth, and greatly abhorred Israel:

Ps 106:40 Therefore was the wrath of the LORD kindled against his people, insomuch that he abhorred his own inheritance.

Prov 6:16-19 These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him: A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief, A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.

Prov 22:14 The mouth of strange women is a deep pit: he that is abhorred of the LORD shall fall therein.

Lam 2:6 And he hath violently taken away his tabernacle, as if it were of a garden: he hath destroyed his places of the assembly: the LORD hath caused the solemn feasts and sabbaths to be forgotten in Zion, and hath despised in the indignation of his anger the king and the priest.

Hos 9:15 All their wickedness is in Gilgal: for there I hated them: for the wickedness of their doings I will drive them out of mine house, I will love them no more: all their princes are revolters.

Am 5:21 I hate, I despise your feast days, and I will not smell in your solemn assemblies.

Zec 11:8 Three shepherds also I cut off in one month; and my soul lothed them, and their soul also abhorred me.

Mal 1:3 And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness.

Rom 9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

Rev 2:6; 15 But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitanes, which I also hate.



I can assure you the Bible hasn't killed anyone.



How does that work with childbirth?



Okay.



Denial implies that deep down we know the truth but we're suppressing it. That's what atheists do.

Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

You're probably shaking your head right now. That's denial. Read it again. D-E-N-I-A-L.



I'm not scared. God's angels protect me.

Ps 34:7 The angel of the Lord encampeth round about them that fear him, and delivereth them.



I simply cannot do that.

Mat 4:4b Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

That would be like me challenging you not to show up to work for a month in order to convince you your boss doesn't exist.



What simple non-supernatural reason is there for miracles, like when I lost my car keys and prayed and then God helped me find them?



Did you read the OP? I do not feel I've done the same. God hates rational thinking.



Name an ethical statement made or an action performed by a believer that could have been made or performed by a non-believer.

Jer 13:23 Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil.

50/50 means, Half of the responsibility, obviously men cant have children, only science can make that happen. But my point was 50/50 cooking, cleaning, looking after the children... that sort of thing. see my point?

The bible teaching have killed millions of humans in the name of religion, just like the Koran has... you don't need the bible to have solid moral foundations. Humans had this well before the bible was written.

As for your car keys, Really!! maybe you subconsciously remembered, or when looking for them you found them. I would say you found them without help... Well done!!

here is a thought! what if chimps don’t know anything. They don’t know how to get food, or mate or even where to live. Without knowing anything they should’ve died off a long time ago. And yet here they are. They don’t need a god to know these things. Why do we need a god for knowledge? We learn through a process of trial and error. Since we’ve survived as a human species, we have acquired reliable knowledge about our world. Period.

[Pastor Ed Lowman]

Re: God HATES Rational Thinking!

Why are you all debating about something that does not exist. you all have a disease of the mind. There is no greater force or higher power. Man wrote the bible for domination, to control the masses. Something you preachers do every week.

As an atheist I am free of this psychological hold and see religion for the true evil it is.

Please stop spreading your disease.

But its ok for you to spread your mind virus of atheism, which is responsible for blasphemy, thinking, and throwing Bibles out of our schools and courthouses? Your values are clearly screwed up, young man.

I will pray for you.

Pastor Ed

[Atheist1320]

Re: God HATES Rational Thinking!

But its ok for you to spread your mind virus of atheism, which is responsible for blasphemy, thinking, and throwing Bibles out of our schools and courthouses? Your values are clearly screwed up, young man.

I will pray for you.

Pastor Ed

Sorry, I'm just trying to heal you and free you mind from the ball and chain that is religion. Embrace the world and open your eyes.

Thanks for praying for me, but know one is listening (no god) so you have wasted your time.

[John Creeser]

Re: God HATES Rational Thinking!

Sorry, I'm just trying to heal you and free you mind from the ball and chain that is religion. Embrace the world and open your eyes.

Thanks for praying for me, but know one is listening (no god) so you have wasted your time.

I think the other atheists who frequent our forums would find your retard rebukes embarrassing.

No God huh? Did you not read Brother Pims post - you know, the one with irrefutable evidence of the Lord's existance as outlined in the Holy King James version of the Bible? Yet you still hurl insults. Your day will come.

Psalm 2

2 Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?

2 The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the Lord, and against his anointed, saying,

3 Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us.

4 He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision.

5 Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure.

6 Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.

7 I will declare the decree: the Lord hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.

8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.

9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.

10 Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth.

11 Serve the Lord with fear, and rejoice with trembling.

12 Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.

[see_the_light]

Re: God HATES Rational Thinking!

Sorry, I'm just trying to heal you and free you mind from the ball and chain that is religion. Embrace the world and open your eyes.

Thanks for praying for me, but know one is listening (no god) so you have wasted your time.

What you disrespectfully call "ball and chain" is JESUS's sweet yoke. May you find HIM.

Matthew 11:29

Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.

As for your tantrum it is vain to deny HIM (btw, HE will not deny you, HE will either embrace you or kick your ass straight to hell)

Hosea 13:4

Yet I am the Lord thy God from the land of Egypt,
And thou shalt know no god but me:
For there is no saviour beside me.

PRAISE THE LORD!

[Nicholas Smith]

Re: God HATES Rational Thinking!

I am glad someone thinks the same. And not just someone, but more than one people! The Earth, ROUND? I don't think so! The Earth is flat, as described in Genesis!

[The atheist bastard]

Re: God HATES Rational Thinking!

Oh I understand that just fine, I just pity the life of misery that such a position condemns you to, and my compassion for my fellow human being drives me to show you that there is a better way, a way of TRUTH, a way that will let you live a much happier life free from the lies you follow. A life free from those bitter and twisted thoughts that book instils in you. A life where you can see people having more fun then you are and not think bad thoughts about them, thoughts that light a fire within you, fuelled by your jealousy and fanned by those vindictive verses you have been taught to recite.

I agree with every argument you have made so far (except the parts about the flying spaghetti monster and the TRUE testiment)