[epignosis]

Re: God HATES Rational Thinking!

How is that justice friend? That means some atheist like Adolph Hitler or Joesph Stalin or Jimmy Carter can just goes their lives, torturing people and then just dies, that's it, like they expected. It's not like an Atheist is expecting anything but oblivion when they die.

No friend, God is a Loving God so above all there must be eternal damnation.

There is only death. The scriptures tells us that the soul that is sinning dies.
So when people die they have paid the price for sin.
Now if God 'remembers' you , then you will be resurrected. But if he does not, then,you are thrown into the lake of fire ( the second death) which is no resurrection.
Now to humans we wonder why Hitler will not be tortured, but that is man's thoughts. Not God's. Now on the other hand if you die ( which is the price for sin) and God remembers you , you will have a resurrection. So you will get life where Hitler like ones will not. ( though it is not my place to pass judgement on anyone) The reason I say this is because Saul was the foremost persecutors of the followers of Jesus even stoning ones to death. Saul became Paul and became a exceptional apostle.
Even Satan will not be tortured, he also will just be done away with.

[Ezekiel Bathfire]

Re: God HATES Rational Thinking!

The original-language terms (Heb., ne′phesh [ׁש]; Gr., psy‧khe′ [ψυχή]) as used in the Scriptures show “soul” to be a person, an animal, or the life that a person or an animal enjoys.
Th soul means the life you have.

No. You have have merely sipped at the fountain of knowledge. The context here, and at each occurrence is essential, as are the Hebrew and Greek words.

The Immortal soul is
πνεῦμα
pneuma
pnyoo'-mah
deriving from a current of air, that is, breath (blast) or a breeze; by analogy or figuratively a spirit, that is, (human) the rational soul, (by implication) vital principle, mental disposition, etc., or (superhuman) an angel, daemon, or (divine) God, Christ’s spirit, the Holy spirit: - ghost, life, spirit (-ual, -ually), mind.

ψυχή
psuchē
psoo-khay'
breath, that is, (by implication) spirit, abstractly or concretely (the animal sentient principle only; thus distinguished on the one hand from pneuma, which is the rational and immortal soul; and on the other from life, which is mere vitality, even of plants: these terms thus exactly correspond respectively to the Hebrew [nephesh], [ruach] and [chay]: - heart (+ -ily), life, mind, soul, + us, + you.

If you have a problem, take it up with Mr Strong and his dictionaries.

The life force psuchē dies, the soul pneuma does not.

[epignosis]

Re: God HATES Rational Thinking!

No. You have have merely sipped at the fountain of knowledge. The context here, and at each occurrence is essential, as are the Hebrew and Greek words.

The Immortal soul is
πνεῦμα
pneuma
pnyoo'-mah
deriving from a current of air, that is, breath (blast) or a breeze; by analogy or figuratively a spirit, that is, (human) the rational soul, (by implication) vital principle, mental disposition, etc., or (superhuman) an angel, daemon, or (divine) God, Christ’s spirit, the Holy spirit: - ghost, life, spirit (-ual, -ually), mind.

ψυχή
psuchē
psoo-khay'
breath, that is, (by implication) spirit, abstractly or concretely (the animal sentient principle only; thus distinguished on the one hand from pneuma, which is the rational and immortal soul; and on the other from life, which is mere vitality, even of plants: these terms thus exactly correspond respectively to the Hebrew [nephesh], [ruach] and [chay]: - heart (+ -ily), life, mind, soul, + us, + you.

If you have a problem, take it up with Mr Strong and his dictionaries.

The life force psuchē dies, the soul pneuma does not.

The difficulty lies in the fact that the meanings popularly attached to the English word “soul” stem primarily, not from the Hebrew or Christian Greek Scriptures, but from ancient Greek philosophy, actually pagan religious thought. Greek philosopher Plato, for example, quotes Socrates as saying: “The soul, .*.*. if it departs pure, dragging with it nothing of the body, .*.*. goes away into that which is like itself, into the invisible, divine, immortal, and wise, and when it arrives there it is happy, freed from error and folly and fear .*.*. and all the other human ills, and .*.*. lives in truth through all after time with the gods.”—Phaedo, 80, D, E; 81, A.
In direct contrast with the Greek teaching of the psy‧khe′ (soul) as being immaterial, intangible, invisible, and immortal, the Scriptures show that both psy‧khe′ and ne′phesh, as used with reference to earthly creatures, refer to that which is material, tangible, visible, and mortal.
The New Catholic Encyclopedia says: “Nepes [ne′phesh] is a term of far greater extension than our ‘soul,’ signifying life (Ex 21.23; Dt 19.21) and its various vital manifestations: breathing (Gn 35.18; Jb 41.13[21]), blood [Gn 9.4; Dt 12.23; Ps 140(141).8], desire (2 Sm 3.21; Prv 23.2). The soul in the O[ld] T[estament] means not a part of man, but the whole man—man as a living being. Similarly, in the N[ew] T[estament] it signifies human life: the life of an individual, conscious subject (Mt 2.20; 6.25; Lk 12.22-23; 14.26; Jn 10.11, 15,*17; 13.37).”—1967, Vol. XIII, p. 467.

Ne′phesh comes from a root meaning “breathe” and in a literal sense ne′phesh could be rendered as “a breather.” Koehler and Baumgartner’s Lexicon in Veteris Testamenti Libros (Leiden, 1958, p. 627) defines it as: “the breathing substance, making man a[nd] animal living beings Gn 1, 20, the soul (strictly distinct from the greek notion of soul) the seat of which is the blood Gn 9, 4f Lv 17,*11 Dt 12,*23: (249 X) .*.*. soul = living being, individual, person


Jesus died so man could live. The ones that were good in God's eyes before Jesus, like Abraham a Job etc, died. If they had immortality, why did Jesus need to die? They would have lived on no matter what Jesus did. Immortality means you can not die. God can not kill you.
But the bible says man and the animals have the same eventuality, we die.
Saying all have immortality nullifies Jesus death.
Also Jesus was given immortality not until after he died for mankind. He was the first one ever to get immortality. None of the angels have it.

[Meek and Humble]

Re: God HATES Rational Thinking!

We know that the bible says there is no works in death or thinking or anything.

Does it?

The physical death process involves the separation of the human spirit or soul from the physical body. The death of Rachel, Jacob’s wife, was described as her “soul” departing from her “body” (Gen. 35:18).

At the point of death, the body returns to the dust, but the spirit returns to God (Eccl. 12:6-7) —who will deal with it appropriately (Gen. 18:25).

The death of the body is biblically defined by the departure of the spirit (Jas. 2:26). Scholars have noted that for the “vast mass of mankind” death has never been viewed as nonexistence (J.S. Clemens, Hastings Dictionary of the Bible, Peabody, MA: Hendrickson, 1989, p. 181).

Spiritual death is the condition of being alienated from Jehovah. Since sin separates a person from God (Isa. 59:1-2), the state of being estranged from the Creator is depicted metaphorically as the person being dead. When Adam and Eve disobeyed God, that very “day” they died (Gen. 2:17; cf. 3:8,23), i.e., they were separated from fellowship with the Lord (though other implications likely are involved as well; see 3:19). Prior to their conversion, the Ephesian saints had been spiritually “dead” (Eph. 2:1), i.e., alienated from the Lord (2:12-13). It is possible to be “dead” spiritually while alive physically.

Paul declared that the widow who devotes herself to pleasure is “dead,” even though she is alive (1 Tim. 5:6). Christ wrote a letter to the church in Sardis wherein he described a significant portion of these disciples as “dead” (Rev. 3:1), that is they had drifted from Christian fidelity. The “Second Death”

The second death is an ultimate and eternal separation from God.

The expression is found four times in the book of Revelation ( 2:11; 20:6,14; 21:8). J.H. Thayer defined the “second death” as “the miserable state of the wicked dead in hell” (Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament, Edinburgh: T.&T. Clark, 1958, p. 283).

This condition is characterized as the second death because it follows physical death; it is designated as death because it is the terminal separation from the Lord (Mt. 7:23; 25:41; 2 Thes. 1:9). Try substituting the term “annihilation” for “death” in the Revelation passages and see what sort of sense it makes, e.g., “the second annihilation.”

There is absolutely no biblical evidence that “hell” will involve the extermination of either Satan, evil angels, or wicked humans (Mt. 25:41,46; Rev. 14:9-11; 20:10).
Conclusion

The dogma of annihilation is not an innocent view with harmless consequences.

[Bobby-Joe]

Re: God HATES Rational Thinking!

There is only death. The scriptures tells us that the soul that is sinning dies.
So when people die they have paid the price for sin.
Now if God 'remembers' you , then you will be resurrected. But if he does not, then,you are thrown into the lake of fire ( the second death) which is no resurrection.
Now to humans we wonder why Hitler will not be tortured, but that is man's thoughts. Not God's. Now on the other hand if you die ( which is the price for sin) and God remembers you , you will have a resurrection. So you will get life where Hitler like ones will not. ( though it is not my place to pass judgement on anyone) The reason I say this is because Saul was the foremost persecutors of the followers of Jesus even stoning ones to death. Saul became Paul and became a exceptional apostle.
Even Satan will not be tortured, he also will just be done away with.

How, pray tell, will that be an a punishment for an Atheist?

Atheists are good mocking scum who firmly believe over there is no God or any afterlife. In there sick and twisted minds they can just rape other men and eat babies every day of their lives because they say there is no point. To an Atheist there is no reward for the virtuous, no punishment for the wicked so why no go out and commit murder or belong to a union, because when you die, you just stop existing.

All you just said is Atheists are right.

Atheists MUST burn in Hell for all eternity if there is to be any justice!

[Pastor Isaac Peters]

Re: God HATES Rational Thinking!

There is only death. The scriptures tells us that the soul that is sinning dies.
So when people die they have paid the price for sin.
Now if God 'remembers' you , then you will be resurrected. But if he does not, then,you are thrown into the lake of fire ( the second death) which is no resurrection.
Now to humans we wonder why Hitler will not be tortured, but that is man's thoughts. Not God's. Now on the other hand if you die ( which is the price for sin) and God remembers you , you will have a resurrection. So you will get life where Hitler like ones will not. ( though it is not my place to pass judgement on anyone) The reason I say this is because Saul was the foremost persecutors of the followers of Jesus even stoning ones to death. Saul became Paul and became a exceptional apostle.
Even Satan will not be tortured, he also will just be done away with.

Luke 16:22-24: And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

Why would the rich man react like that if hell were just eternal nonexistence? For that matter, how could he react if hell were just eternal nonexistence?

[epignosis]

Re: God HATES Rational Thinking!

Luke 16:22-24: And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

Why would the rich man react like that if hell were just eternal nonexistence? For that matter, how could he react if hell were just eternal nonexistence?

There is no Biblical statement nor any reason to link the historical Lazarus with the beggar of Jesus’ illustration of the rich man and Lazarus

By what Jesus said about the rich man and Lazarus, did Jesus teach torment of the wicked after death?
Is the account, at Luke 16:19-31, literal or merely an illustration of something else? The Jerusalem Bible, in a footnote, acknowledges that it is a “parable in story form without reference to any historical personage.” If taken literally, it would mean that those enjoying divine favor could all fit at the bosom of one man, Abraham; that the water on one’s fingertip would not be evaporated by the fire of Hades; that a mere drop of water would bring relief to one suffering there. Does that sound reasonable to you? If it were literal, it would conflict with other parts of the Bible. If the Bible were thus contradictory, would a lover of truth use it as a basis for his faith? But the Bible does not contradict itself.
What does the parable mean? The “rich man” represented the Pharisees. (See verse 14.) The beggar Lazarus represented the common Jewish people who were despised by the Pharisees but who repented and became followers of Jesus. (See Luke 18:11; John 7:49; Matthew 21:31,*32.) Their deaths were also symbolic, representing a change in circumstances. Thus, the formerly despised ones came into a position of divine favor, and the formerly seemingly favored ones were rejected by God, while being tormented by the judgment messages delivered by the ones whom they had despised.—Acts 5:33; 7:54.

So then,what is the origin of the teaching of hellfire?
In ancient Babylonian and Assyrian beliefs the “nether world .*.*. is pictured as a place full of horrors, and*is*presided*over by gods and demons of great strength and*fierceness.”*(The Religion of Babylonia and Assyria, Boston, 1898, Morris Jastrow, Jr., p. 581) Early evidence of the fiery*aspect*of*Christendom’s hell is found in*the*religion of*ancient Egypt. (The Book of the Dead, New Hyde Park,*N.Y., 1960, with introduction by E. A.*Wallis Budge, pp. 144, 149,*151,*153,*161) Buddhism, which dates back to the 6th century*B.C.E., in time came to feature both hot and cold hells. (The Encyclopedia Americana, 1977, Vol.*14, p.*68) Depictions of hell portrayed in Catholic churches in*Italy have been traced to Etruscan roots.—La civiltà etrusca*(Milan, 1979), Werner Keller, p. 389.
But the real roots of this God-dishonoring doctrine go much deeper. The fiendish concepts associated with a hell of torment slander God and originate with the chief slanderer of God (the Devil, which name means “Slanderer”), the one whom Jesus Christ called “the father of the lie.”—John 8:44.

[Katander]

Re: God HATES Rational Thinking!

Here are the possibilities:

1. One church has it right, and the rest are wrong.
2. God is too incompetent to get His point across.
3. God doesn't care what we believe.
4. The Bible isn't God's word to begin with.
5. There is no God.

If you believe any of 2-5, then in what sense are you a Christian?

Well said Pastor. You could even expand your first point by asking which religion, let alone church is right.

But how do we know which of your above points is the right one and which are not? For me the answer is by using Rational Thinking. And after carefully using Rational Thought my conclusion is number 5 is the way to go!

Thats why god hates rational thought, if we all used it we would all be atheists and he would be out of a job!

[Oliver Brendan Hayve]

Re: God HATES Rational Thinking!

But the Bible does not contradict itself.

For a good part of this thread, you've provided ample evidence that it does.

So then,what is the origin of the teaching of hellfire?
In ancient Babylonian and Assyrian beliefs the “nether world .*.*. is pictured as a place full of horrors, and*is*presided*over by gods and demons of great strength and*fierceness.”*(The Religion of Babylonia and Assyria, Boston, 1898, Morris Jastrow, Jr., p. 581) Early evidence of the fiery*aspect*of*Christendom’s hell is found in*the*religion of*ancient Egypt. (The Book of the Dead, New Hyde Park,*N.Y., 1960, with introduction by E. A.*Wallis Budge, pp. 144, 149,*151,*153,*161) Buddhism, which dates back to the 6th century*B.C.E., in time came to feature both hot and cold hells. (The Encyclopedia Americana, 1977, Vol.*14, p.*68) Depictions of hell portrayed in Catholic churches in*Italy have been traced to Etruscan roots.—La civiltà etrusca*(Milan, 1979), Werner Keller, p. 389.
But the real roots of this God-dishonoring doctrine go much deeper. The fiendish concepts associated with a hell of torment slander God and originate with the chief slanderer of God (the Devil, which name means “Slanderer”), the one whom Jesus Christ called “the father of the lie.”—John 8:44.

So Christianity is a copycat religion? You don't say.

[Beyondthesmegma]

Re: God HATES Rational Thinking!

God hates Rational Thinking!

Brothers and Sisters in Christ,

Today I would like to discuss a very real threat to any Faithful True Christian™. I speak, of course, about the demonic practice of “rational thinking.”

[...]
2 Peter 3:3-7:
Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

I hope I have made clear to everyone why rational thinking is such a dangerous thing. Do not think, just obey! Otherwise, Hell will be waiting for you! Do everything the Bible says without question, that’s all God asks from you!

Yours in Christ,

True Disciple

Cranky Old Man told me God hates rational thinking. But let's actually think about it. By your reasoning, God hates rational thinking, but then again he gave it to us.
Here is an analogy: You give your son a book. You hate the book, but you gave it to him anyway even though he did not request it. So why would God give us the ability to think rationally if he doesn't like it.


Somebody once told me “God does not want you to use the rational mind.” One of the reasons that humans are so divided is not religion, but the fact that we are so dogmatic. We are so willing to hear what we want to hear. We would rather follow some belief that we like instead of believing something that is rationally possible. That’s why some humans stick to such irrational beliefs sometimes. It is because we don’t think. It is because we are so stupid. We find a construct and we never challenge or question it because we are weak. Those who defied. Socrates, Galileo, Copernicus. They were strong because they used their rational mind.

God. I do not know if he exists. Because empirical evidence or even logical proof that he exists, I cannot believe in his existence, but I cannot discredit him either because there is not enough evidence that he does not exist. But to passionately believe in either is a mistake.

Let's also consider the fact the Socrates was a rational thinker, but believed in one God. He was the first man in Greece to do so. He lived a good life, did not sin, believed in God yet was a rational thinker. You must also consider the fact that Socrates lived before Jesus. I understand why you are so dogmatic. All of us are or at least were. But rational thinking is when you use reason when you think. Galileo proved the Earth revolved around the Sun. Copernicus proved that the Earth was round. They discovered these things because they used their rational mind.

[Ezekiel Bathfire]

Re: God HATES Rational Thinking!

Is the account, at Luke 16:19-31, literal or merely an illustration of something else?

It is literal. What is there not to believe about it? Why should it be a parable? Are you suggesting that God cannot make His Message clear?

And NEVER use the Jerusalem Bible! It is errant, as your cretinous footnote shows.

So then,what is the origin of the teaching of hellfire?
In ancient Babylonian and Assyrian beliefs the “nether world .*.*. is pictured as a place full of horrors, and*is*presided*over by gods and demons of great strength and*fierceness.”*

I think you have shot yourself in the foot here.

Is it not obvious to the True Christian that these Babylonian sandnigras KNEW there was a hell, but just got the story wrong because they refused to be Christian?

So if all these cultures say there is a Hell, who are you to tell millions and millions that they are wrong? Sounds like arrogance to me.

Perhaps you have a "special bible" that tells you exactly what God meant (and I've got $100 says it says exactly what you think is a good idea!)

[Ezekiel Bathfire]

Re: God HATES Rational Thinking!

Let's also consider the fact the Socrates was a rational thinker, but believed in one God. He was the first man in Greece to do so. He lived a good life, did not sin, believed in God yet was a rational thinker. You must also consider the fact that Socrates lived before Jesus. I understand why you are so dogmatic. All of us are or at least were. But rational thinking is when you use reason when you think. Galileo proved the Earth revolved around the Sun. Copernicus proved that the Earth was round. They discovered these things because they used their rational mind.

Socrates did not believe in God. Socrates claimed that the concept of goodness, instead of being determined by what the gods wanted, actually precedes the entire business of deities. (from Wiki, with which, on this occasion, I agree.)

Socrates could not have lived before Jesus, Jesus was here before Creation. If Socrates did not believe in Jesus, he was not rational because only by believing in Jesus can you attain Salvation. And no one can be considered rational who would reject Salvation™!

And don't come the old, "How could Socrates know of Jesus?" I'll tell you how, by reading the prophecies in Isaiah.

[Ezekiel Bathfire]

Re: God HATES Rational Thinking!

Well said Pastor. You could even expand your first point by asking which religion, let alone church is right.

Christianity and Landover

But how do we know which of your above points is the right one and which are not? For me the answer is by using Rational Thinking. And after carefully using Rational Thought my conclusion is number 5 is the way to go!

Irrational! Of all the flavors of Chrsitianity, one has to be right. That one has to be the one that holds closest to God's Word.

Son, you have arrived in Landover.

Thats why god hates rational thought, if we all used it we would all be atheists and he would be out of a job!

It doesn't seem very rational to reject eternal life with Jesus.

[Beyondthesmegma]

Re: God HATES Rational Thinking!

Socrates did not believe in God. Socrates claimed that the concept of goodness, instead of being determined by what the gods wanted, actually precedes the entire business of deities. (from Wiki, with which, on this occasion, I agree.)

Socrates could not have lived before Jesus, Jesus was here before Creation. If Socrates did not believe in Jesus, he was not rational because only by believing in Jesus can you attain Salvation. And no one can be considered rational who would reject Salvation™!

And don't come the old, "How could Socrates know of Jesus?" I'll tell you how, by reading the prophecies in Isaiah.

Nobody in the world knew of the existence of Jesus prior to Mary. Socrates lived before Mary. Use your mind next time.

[Zechariah Smyth]

Re: God HATES Rational Thinking!

Nobody in the world knew of the existence of Jesus prior to Mary. Socrates lived before Mary. Use your mind next time.

Are you unaware that Jesus and God are the same?

(John 10:30) "I and my Father are one."

As far as who came first:

(Revelation 1:8) "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty."

Yours in Christ,

Z. Smyth