[Pastor Ezekiel]

Re: Are You an Atheist?

hi !

some people might think "fluffy bunny" ... but what do you really think ?
below is an excerpt from an interesting article:

before we truly understand the sovereignty of God in salvation, we often think the burden is on us to “produce” decisions for Christ. we act as if a person's salvation is dependent on us. so when we share the Gospel and it is rejected, we somehow think we failed to talk that person into believing and that we need a more clever or polished presentation of the plan of salvation. we may be tempted to water down the Gospel next time in order to get the desired response.


* * *

"Salvation is of the LORD"

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Not of works, lest any man should boast."

Please stop spamming our forum with candy-coated rubbish you cut-and-pasted from some liberal Christian website.

[Samuel Coleridge]

Re: Are You an Atheist?

"Salvation is of the LORD"

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Not of works, lest any man should boast."

And I believe it is in works by which we are saved.

Matthew 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

John 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Matthew 12:37For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.

James 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

Matthew 25:34-36 34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

[Meek and Humble]

Re: Are You an Atheist?

10 If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not take them into your house or welcome them. 11 Anyone who welcomes them shares in their wicked work.

hi !

some people might think "fluffy bunny" ... but what do you really think ?
below is an excerpt from an interesting article:

before we truly understand the sovereignty of God in salvation, we often think the burden is on us to “produce” decisions for Christ. we act as if a person's salvation is dependent on us. so when we share the Gospel and it is rejected, we somehow think we failed to talk that person into believing and that we need a more clever or polished presentation of the plan of salvation. we may be tempted to water down the Gospel next time in order to get the desired response.

Friend, instead of quoting an article, why not quote THE BIBLE

Titus 3: 10A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject;
11Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself.

2 John 1:10 If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not take them into your house or welcome them. 11 Anyone who welcomes them shares in their wicked work.

Romans 16:17 I urge you, brothers and sisters, to watch out for those who cause divisions and put obstacles in your way that are contrary to the teaching you have learned. Keep away from them

Matthew 18: 15Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.
16But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.
17And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

2 Thessalonians 3: 6 In the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, we command you, brothers and sisters, to keep away from every believer who is idle and disruptive and does not live according to the teaching you received from us.

2 Thessalonians 3: 14 Take special note of anyone who does not obey our instruction in this letter. Do not associate with them, in order that they may feel ashamed.

Matthew 10:11 Whatever town or village you enter, search there for some worthy person and stay at their house until you leave. 12 As you enter the home, give it your greeting. 13 If the home is deserving, let your peace rest on it; if it is not, let your peace return to you. 14 If anyone will not welcome you or listen to your words, leave that home or town and shake the dust off your feet. 15 Truly I tell you, it will be more bearable for Sodom and Gomorrah on the day of judgment than for that town.

[Enfluerage]

Re: Are You an Atheist?

And I believe it is in works by which we are saved.

Matthew 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

John 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Matthew 12:37For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.

James 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

Matthew 25:34-36 34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Salvation is of the LORD

21Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
24And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
25If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. 26Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.

8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

20But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

8He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.

34Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

35For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: 36Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

* * *

Some see a difference between Paul (salvation is by faith alone) and James (salvation is by faith plus works). Paul dogmatically says that justification is by faith alone (Ephesians 2:8-9), while James appears to be saying that justification is by faith plus works. This apparent problem is answered by examining what exactly James is talking about. James is refuting the belief that a person can have faith without producing any good works (James 2:17-18). James is emphasizing the point that genuine faith in Christ will produce a changed life and good works (James 2:20-26). James is not saying that justification is by faith plus works, but rather that a person who is truly justified by faith will have good works in his/her life. If a person claims to be a believer, but has no good works in his/her life, then he/she likely does not have genuine faith in Christ (James 2:14, 17, 20, 26).

Paul says the same thing in his writings. The good fruit believers should have in their lives is listed in Galatians 5:22-23. Immediately after telling us that we are saved by faith, not works (Ephesians 2:8-9), Paul informs us that we were created to do good works (Ephesians 2:10). Paul expects just as much of a changed life as James does: “Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come” (2 Corinthians 5:17). James and Paul do not disagree in their teaching regarding salvation. They approach the same subject from different perspectives. Paul simply emphasized that justification is by faith alone while James put emphasis on the fact that genuine faith in Christ produces good works.

(excerpt from www.gotquestions.org)

[Samuel Coleridge]

Re: Are You an Atheist?

* * *

Some see a difference between Paul (salvation is by faith alone) and James (salvation is by faith plus works). Paul dogmatically says that justification is by faith alone (Ephesians 2:8-9), while James appears to be saying that justification is by faith plus works. This apparent problem is answered by examining what exactly James is talking about. James is refuting the belief that a person can have faith without producing any good works (James 2:17-18). James is emphasizing the point that genuine faith in Christ will produce a changed life and good works (James 2:20-26). James is not saying that justification is by faith plus works, but rather that a person who is truly justified by faith will have good works in his/her life. If a person claims to be a believer, but has no good works in his/her life, then he/she likely does not have genuine faith in Christ (James 2:14, 17, 20, 26).

Paul says the same thing in his writings. The good fruit believers should have in their lives is listed in Galatians 5:22-23. Immediately after telling us that we are saved by faith, not works (Ephesians 2:8-9), Paul informs us that we were created to do good works (Ephesians 2:10). Paul expects just as much of a changed life as James does: “Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come” (2 Corinthians 5:17). James and Paul do not disagree in their teaching regarding salvation. They approach the same subject from different perspectives. Paul simply emphasized that justification is by faith alone while James put emphasis on the fact that genuine faith in Christ produces good works.

(excerpt from www.gotquestions.org)

You still can't answer the scriptures I directly quoted from the Gospels.

Your apologist's answer about James is weak at best. James is writing a direct refutation of Paul's arguments.

Paul and James do not like each other at all as is evidenced in Galatians 2

11But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed.
12For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision.

You also have their famous discussion in Acts 15.

8And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;
9And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
10Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
11But we believe that through the grace of the LORD Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.
12Then all the multitude kept silence, and gave audience to Barnabas and Paul, declaring what miracles and wonders God had wrought among the Gentiles by them.
13And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men and brethren, hearken unto me:
14Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.
15And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,
16After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:
17That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.
18Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.
19Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:
20But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.
21For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.
22Then pleased it the apostles and elders with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; namely, Judas surnamed Barsabas and Silas, chief men among the brethren:

[Enfluerage]

Re: Are You an Atheist?

10 If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not take them into your house or welcome them. 11 Anyone who welcomes them shares in their wicked work.


Friend, instead of quoting an article, why not quote THE BIBLE

Titus 3: 10A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject;
11Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself.

2 John 1:10 If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not take them into your house or welcome them. 11 Anyone who welcomes them shares in their wicked work.

Romans 16:17 I urge you, brothers and sisters, to watch out for those who cause divisions and put obstacles in your way that are contrary to the teaching you have learned. Keep away from them

Matthew 18: 15Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.
16But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.
17And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

2 Thessalonians 3: 6 In the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, we command you, brothers and sisters, to keep away from every believer who is idle and disruptive and does not live according to the teaching you received from us.

2 Thessalonians 3: 14 Take special note of anyone who does not obey our instruction in this letter. Do not associate with them, in order that they may feel ashamed.

Matthew 10:11 Whatever town or village you enter, search there for some worthy person and stay at their house until you leave. 12 As you enter the home, give it your greeting. 13 If the home is deserving, let your peace rest on it; if it is not, let your peace return to you. 14 If anyone will not welcome you or listen to your words, leave that home or town and shake the dust off your feet. 15 Truly I tell you, it will be more bearable for Sodom and Gomorrah on the day of judgment than for that town.

to describe my personal experience:

for years i went to a church building. but i slowly realised. i went to a church building to keep in touch with friends, for appearances, to obtain approval etc.

when no one was watching, i was like the priest or levite who would abandon the robbed man.

so many different experiences occurred to me, and one thing i realised was that my faith was in my "building" or "my own strength". but something happened that changed my mind ...

Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Salvation is of the LORD

i realised:
- doing "good deeds" is not about boasting to others or to obtain praise.
- going to church is not a "horrible chore"! it's a privilege !
- loving is not a "horrible chore"! it's a privilege !

love (agape) can be imperfectly describe as selfless & voluntary:

Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.

[Meek and Humble]

Re: Are You an Atheist?

to describe my personal experience:

for years i went to a church building. but i slowly realised. i went to a church building to keep in touch with friends, for appearances, to obtain approval etc.

when no one was watching, i was like the priest or levite who would abandon the robbed man.

so many different experiences occurred to me, and one thing i realised was that my faith was in my "building" or "my own strength". but something happened that changed my mind ...

Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Salvation is of the LORD

i realised:
- doing "good deeds" is not about boasting to others or to obtain praise.
- going to church is not a "horrible chore"! it's a privilege !
- loving is not a "horrible chore"! it's a privilege !

love (agape) can be imperfectly describe as selfless & voluntary:

Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.

Doesn't the Bible say to love your neighbor?

Yes. Does that mean to lie to him and tell him what he wants to hear? No.


It means to tell him the truth, and warn him to flee from the wrath to come. As we are commanded in Leviticus 19:17, "Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart: thou shalt in any wise rebuke thy neighbour, and not suffer sin upon him." Here, loving your neighbour is defined as rebuking him, and not allowing sin to come upon him. Further, we have never suggested that we don't love our neighbor. We're not saying "We hate reprobates" - we're saying "God hates reprobates." The purest, most exalted form of love is to tell people the truth, especially about weighty matters such as life and death, sin, righteousness, judgment to come, Heaven and Hell.


But remember, David said: "Do not I hate them, O Lord, that hate thee? Am not I grieved with those that rise up against thee? I hate them with perfect hatred; I count them mine enemies." Psalm 139:21, 22. David hated God's enemies with a perfect, spiritual hatred (as opposed to the fickle human emotion of hatred), just as all of God's elect do.

[Enfluerage]

Re: Are You an Atheist?

Doesn't the Bible say to love your neighbor?

It means to tell him the truth, and warn him to flee from the wrath to come. As we are commanded in Leviticus 19:17, "Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart: thou shalt in any wise rebuke thy neighbour, and not suffer sin upon him." Here, loving your neighbour is defined as rebuking him, and not allowing sin to come upon him. Further, we have never suggested that we don't love our neighbor. We're not saying "We hate reprobates" - we're saying "God hates reprobates." The purest, most exalted form of love is to tell people the truth, especially about weighty matters such as life and death, sin, righteousness, judgment to come, Heaven and Hell.

it's fantastic what you wrote above =)

my presentation of the Gospel is not perfect !

But we have this treasure in jars of clay to show that this all-surpassing power is from God and not from us

i'm imperfect - i can't remember all of Scripture.

i'll sincerely present what i remember.
i hope others will sincerely present what they remember.

have a look again at the Scripture passages quoted in the first post. is it really that "fluffy bunny" ?

"God", "Jesus", "Lord,", "love", "sacrifice", "grace", "saved", "faith",
"sin", "foolishness", "perish", "death", "repentance",
"Father", "Son", "Holy Spirit",
"baptizing", "eternal life", "Salvation is of the LORD"

one of the key ideas is "predestination". how many people have heard of this word ? i went to a church building for almost ten years, and yet this was basically "oblivious" to me ...

note that my testimony isn't perfect either !
but i'll shake hands with any believer who sincerely presents Scripture.

A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.
By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another

[Lost Sheep McUinnean]

Re: Are You an Atheist?

Fluffy blah blah blah blah blah blah ad infinitum

note that my testimony isn't perfect either !

Which is why you should just stop there.

[Pokemaster]

Re: Are You an Atheist?

God doesn't exist, deal with it. I don't understand why so educated country like the US believes in God. Here no one believes in God among people. in my class there is just one girl who is Christian that is religious and she is not even Czech, she is from UA. None of relatives is religious too.

[Lost Sheep McUinnean]

Re: Are You an Atheist?

God doesn't exist, deal with it. I don't understand why so educated country like the US believes in God. Here no one believes in God among people. in my class there is just one girl who is Christian that is religious and she is not even Czech, she is from UA. None of relatives is religious too.

You've got a bit of a blank Czech for Hell there girl. I'll pray for you.



YIC, McUinnean of that Ilk.

[MitzaLizalor]

Re: Are You an Atheist?

It is wonderful to know that God loves us. Not because He hates everyone else - which He does - but because His love is perfect.

PSALM 25:6 Remember, O Lord, thy tender mercies, and thy louing kindnesses: for they haue beene euer of old.
©1611

PSALM 25:10 All the pathes of the Lord are mercy and truth: vnto such as keepe his couenant, and his testimonies.
©1611

We are flawed humans, our mercy is shallow. God is perfect, His mercy is deep.

DEUTERONOMY 20:12-15
10 When thou commest nigh vnto a City to fight against it, then proclaime peace vnto it.
11 And it shall be, if it make thee answere of peace, and open vnto thee, then it shalbe that all* the people that is found therein, shall be tributaries vnto thee, and they shall serue thee.

*all: That means the women, the children, the infants and all the babies born thenceforth, just as much as the men, will be in servitude to those whom God loves,.

12 And if it will make no peace with thee, but will make warre against thee, then thou shalt besiege it.
13 And when the Lord thy God hath deliuered it into thine hands, thou shalt smite euery male thereof with the edge of the sword.

That means kill them.

14 But the women, and the litle ones, and the cattell, and all that is in the citie, euen all the spoile thereof, shalt thou take vnto thy selfe, and thou shalt eate the spoile of thine enemies, which the Lord thy God hath giuen thee.
15 Thus shalt thou doe vnto all the cities which are very far off from thee, which are not of the cities of these nations.
©1611

Notice how the women and children are in the same category as livestock. The become the property of the glorious soldiers, and are distributed at whim.

Those who hate God say "oh, they just killed all the men so that they could take the women home for a rape orgy, possibly with a forced marriage beforehand, but rape all the same" and so God, who is perfect, hates them back.

The reality is that those women would be so blessed to become the property of any brave hero who had smitten their husbands (now deceased) with the edge of the sword, just as God had said to do, and the children too would be so excited to see which of the men who had killed their fathers they would be distributed to!

DEUTERONOMY 20:16-17
16 But of the cities of these people which the Lord thy God doth giue thee for an inheritance, thou shalt saue aliue nothing* that breatheth:
17 But thou shalt vtterly destroy them, namely, the Hittites, and the Amorites, the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, the Hiuites, and the Iebusites, as the Lord thy God hath commanded thee:
©1611

*nothing: This means to kill everyone, all the livestock, the babies, the pregnant women, the household pets. Do you think it would be better to kill a baby while its father was watching, or to kill the father first, as he tried to save his children, splattering them with blood and brains, and then do the kids?

The fool, who says there is no God, Psalm 14:1 does not understand the depth and beauty of His tender mercy.
The fool would say "that baby was innocent; it didn't deserve to die!" but that fool in an abomination.

Those heathens were all whoremongering filth. The infants were abominations, the unborn children cursed by God for the harlotry of their mothers. When people live like that, it is no wonder God hates them and in His mercy kills them all (unless they live a sufficient distance away to become the property of God's children, instead) [see verse 15, above]

When women worship demons they defy God's Perfect Love and reject His tender mercy, inviting Satan into their wombs to contaminate even their unborn children. By following any such "culture" they are set on the path to Hell and God will not overlook such filthiness. The Israelites repeatedly drifted away from God and were themselves smitten by God, because He loved them. But they were never wiped out entirely. That’s how wonderful God is! When cities refused to accept indentured servitude to the Israelites, the outcome was consistent.

II KINGS 15:16 Then Menahem smote Tiphsah, and all that were therein, and the coasts thereof from Tirzah: because they opened not to him, therfore he smote it, and all the women therein that were with child, he ript vp.
©1611




When people reject God’s mercy:

EZEKIEL 20:24-26
24 Because they had not executed my iudgements, but had despised my Statutes, and had polluted my Sabbaths, and their eyes were after their fathers idoles.
25 Wherefore I gaue them also statutes that were not good, and iudgements whereby they should not liue.
26 And I polluted them in their owne gifts, in that they caused to passe through the fire all that openeth the wombe, that I might make them desolate, to the end, that they might know that I am the Lord.
©1611

HOSEA 13:16 Samaria shall become desolate, for she hath rebelled against her God: they shall fall by the sword: their infants shalbe dashed in pieces, and their women with childe shalbe ript vp.
©1611

ISAIAH 13:16 Their children also shalbe dashed to pieces before their eyes, their houses shalbe spoiled, & their wiues rauished.
©1611

The consequences of declining His lovingkindness are terrible, and God disciplines His children when they go astray because He loves them, and wants to spare them those consequences. HALLELUJAH! Tto that end wives are raped, babies smashed, pregnant women savagely butchered.

But when we follow His word, keep His commandments, victory is assured.

I SAMUEL 18:6-7
6 And it came to passe as they came when Dauid was returned from the slaughter of the Philistine, that the women came out of all cities of Israel, singing and dancing, to meete king Saul, with tabrets, with ioy, and with instruments of musicke.
7 And the women answered one another as they played, and said, Saul hath slaine his thousands, and Dauid his ten thousands.
©1611

PRAISE HIM!

[Bogdana Alkeav]

Re: Are You an Atheist?

one of the key ideas is "predestination". how many people have heard of this word ? i went to a church building for almost ten years, and yet this was basically "oblivious" to me ...

So why does your "loving" God predestine people for hell?

[Cranky Old Man]

Re: Are You an Atheist?

So why does your "loving" God predestine people for hell?

Because they deserve it of course.

[BaronOB]

Re: Are You an Atheist?

I am strong Biblical born again Christian which 100 % believe in God and take the Holy Bible as foundation of Beliefe Word for Word. God has saved my life, I am very thankful him and pray many times every day.