Problem? The Bible says there is no saviour.

[Harsha Shah]

Yes, it is Harsha Shah here. It is a new school year over here. Yes. Happy new year everybody. It's 2016. Yes.

I have been reading the Bible systematically and I have reached Isaiah. I have been thinking that according to your religion Jesus is the saviour and that the christians need him to have eternal life in the heaven. Yes? I have also been reading that there is the Trinity of God and Jesus and the Holy ghost. Yes.

In Isaiah I was coming to chapter 43 and there God is speaking. In the verses 11-15 he is saying "I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour. I have declared, and have saved, and I have shewed, when there was no strange god among you: therefore ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, that I am God. Yea, before the day was I am he; and there is none that can deliver out of my hand: I will work, and who shall let it?Thus saith the LORD, your redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; For your sake I have sent to Babylon, and have brought down all their nobles, and the Chaldeans, whose cry is in the ships. I am the LORD, your Holy One, the creator of Israel, your King." Yes.

I am hoping that I am not offending you but God is saying that there is no saviour. Yes. The saviour would be Jesus. I am thinking that you have been telling me that he is the same as god but this is not a solution for me. Yes. I am also thinking that by the time of Jesus this was history but the gospel of John chapter 1 is saying that Jesus was there from the beginning. Yes. He must have been there but God is saying there is no saviour. Yes.

I am finding this very difficult to understand as it is the Bible itself that is saying that there is no Jesus. Yes. I hope I am not offending you but I would appreciate any advice or explanations. We are soon going to be discussing the prophets in RME classes with the children and I am preparing for that. Yes.

[Faith_Machine]

Re: Problem? The Bible says there is no saviour.

But my dear, God didn't say there is no savior!

He said, "beside me there is no saviour."

Meaning other than Himself, i.e., Jesus, there is no savior.



And remember, if ever something in the Bible confuses you, and if ever the Bible appears to contradict itself, that's because God put those apparent contradictions in there because He really wanted you to think hard and pray and meditate and WRESTLE with those apparent contradictions until you can figure out the answer for how they both can be true at the same time!


Why does the Lord do this? Because in His wisdom, He knows He was to exhaust the logical part of your brain, i.e., the "right brain," the part that does analytical thinking. Only then will the linear part of your mind relax and allow your "left brain" and your heart to open up and receive His truth in an holistic fashion.


Isn't God wonderful?

[Mary Etheldreda]

Re: Problem? The Bible says there is no saviour.

Faith Machine, I couldn't agree more! I know when I feel confused and confounded by complicated intellectual problems, I can always rely on prayer to calm my nerves and restore my soul! Praising the LORD always sets me back on the right track, and sometimes it takes hours and hours of praising, telling my flesh that the doubts or concerns it's trying to tell me is just a lie, a lie I refuse to believe in. I have told God at various times in my life, in no uncertain terms, that I will not get up from my knees until I feel His Peace restored in me. I've stayed that way for hours, overnight, starving, thirsting, sleep deprived, and wouldn't you know it? He always comes to me eventually! God is good all the time! All the time, God is good!

[Harsha Shah]

Re: Problem? The Bible says there is no saviour.

Yes, it is Harsha here again. I have been thinking about your very kind answers but I am verry sorry because I am still confused. I am thinking that you gave me very good answers. Yes. I have been reading the Bible still and the saviour issue is quite confusing. Yes, it is. There a a few places were God is the saviour with no-one else (such as the one I was posting previously). There are also other places with this saviour issue. Yes.

In the same chapter of Isaiah in verse 3 there is "For I am the LORD thy God, the Holy One of Israel, thy Saviour: I gave Egypt for thy ransom, Ethiopia and Seba for thee." Also here God is the saviour and not your Jesus. Yes. In Hosea there is the same thing again. I am hoping that these verses are not offending you. It is Hosea chapter 14 verse 4 "Yet I am the LORD thy God from the land of Egypt, and thou shalt know no god but me: for there is no saviour beside me."

In some other places there are many saviours. Yes. One that I have been reading is in Obadiah chapter 1 "And saviours shall come up on mount Zion to judge the mount of Esau; and the kingdom shall be the LORD'S. "

I am thinking that this could be a big problem. If all the Bible were true historically some of it could not be true? Yes? In your new testament there is only one saviour but there are contradictions in your old testament. There is God the saviour but also many saviours. Yes. I am sorry to be bothering you again but do you have any information how to explain all this to my RME class? I am still teaching this one girl pupil who is very intelligent but she is also posing some very hard questions. Yes.

[Faith_Machine]

Re: Problem? The Bible says there is no saviour.

Oh, you're no bother at all, my dear.

It might be helpful to remember God sometimes refers to Himself in the plural in the Bible, like in Genesis 1:26 and 3:22.

That doesn't literally mean there are more than one of Him; it's more like the royal "we."

Also, He might be including His angels when He says "us."


Also note Elohim, one of the primary names for God in the Old Testament, is in the plural form, probably because He is a Trinity.



Regarding this girl in your RME class, it sounds like her mind is not being occupied with proper things. Have you considered placing her in an accelerated Home Economics class?

You know, get her involved in learning to do laundry, wash dishes, clean her future husband's home, care for babies, that sort of thing. Her mind is idle, and it's wandering. She needs you to focus her energies on the things she ought to be concentrating on.

[Regis Alexandrus]

Re: Problem? The Bible says there is no saviour.

Read Matthew 5; John 12, 14, and 15; Galatians 5 and 6; Ephesians 4 and 5; Colossians 1; Romans 7; 1 Peter 1 and 2; and Jeremiah 31. They say that Christ is the image of God; He preceded everything and is everything; who ever does His will does God's will; that we must let our good works be seen so that others may glorify God; and that He established the New Covenant by His sacrifice.

[Jim Farmer]

Re: Problem? The Bible says there is no saviour.

Harsha, the Bible wasn't written all at once! The Old Testament is so called because it was written before the New Testament. God wrote Isaiah in fact, about 800 years before Baby Jesus was born. And maybe when God was writing it, He thought to Himself "By Jove, what a good idea, I need a Saviour to help me" and thus He was inspired to look for a suitable receptacle for His seed to reproduce Himself in the form of His Son, the new Saviour.

[Basilissa]

Re: Problem? The Bible says there is no saviour.

Yes, it is Harsha here again. I have been thinking about your very kind answers but I am verry sorry because I am still confused. I am thinking that you gave me very good answers. Yes. I have been reading the Bible still and the saviour issue is quite confusing. Yes, it is. There a a few places were God is the saviour with no-one else (such as the one I was posting previously). There are also other places with this saviour issue. Yes.

In the same chapter of Isaiah in verse 3 there is "For I am the LORD thy God, the Holy One of Israel, thy Saviour: I gave Egypt for thy ransom, Ethiopia and Seba for thee." Also here God is the saviour and not your Jesus. Yes. In Hosea there is the same thing again. I am hoping that these verses are not offending you. It is Hosea chapter 14 verse 4 "Yet I am the LORD thy God from the land of Egypt, and thou shalt know no god but me: for there is no saviour beside me."

You're forgetting, dear, that Jesus is God. Therefore, when God says, "There is no saviour beside me", He also means "There is no saviour besides Jesus." Plain and simple.

In some other places there are many saviours. Yes. One that I have been reading is in Obadiah chapter 1 "And saviours shall come up on mount Zion to judge the mount of Esau; and the kingdom shall be the LORD'S. "

That's because here God is thinking of Himself and Jesus separately. One God-Savior is plenty; two God-Saviors is many! Again, very plain and simple.

[Ezekiel Bathfire]

Re: Problem? The Bible says there is no saviour.

I have been reading the Bible systematically and I have reached Isaiah. I have been thinking that according to your religion Jesus is the saviour and that the christians need him to have eternal life in the heaven. Yes? I have also been reading that there is the Trinity of God and Jesus and the Holy ghost. Yes.

In Isaiah I was coming to chapter 43 and there God is speaking. In the verses 11-15 he is saying "I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.
[...] God is saying there is no saviour.

There are two points here.

1. When Yahweh spoke those words, He was speaking to the people of Earth. Yahweh knew that there was Jesus, but Jesus was in Heaven, not on Earth, whereas Yahweh was everywhere.
2. When Yahweh spoke those words, He used the present tense, indicating that "at that time" there was no Savior other than Him.

Later we find that Yahweh sends Jesus to Earth, and that Jesus turns out to be a representation of Yahweh, The Holy Spirit and Himself, Who, together, form the only One True God.

[Harsha Shah]

Re: Problem? The Bible says there is no saviour.

There are two points here.

1. When Yahweh spoke those words, He was speaking to the people of Earth. Yahweh knew that there was Jesus, but Jesus was in Heaven, not on Earth, whereas Yahweh was everywhere.
2. When Yahweh spoke those words, He used the present tense, indicating that "at that time" there was no Savior other than Him.

Later we find that Yahweh sends Jesus to Earth, and that Jesus turns out to be a representation of Yahweh, The Holy Spirit and Himself, Who, together, form the only One True God.

Yes, Mr. Bathfire. It is Harsha Shah here and I am replying to you kind post. I am thinking about the concepts of time and eternity. I am appreciating your post and I can relate to the flexibility of time because Mr. Einstein found out that time is not the same everywhere. Yes. I am seeing that in your opinion God was in the past in your old testament when it comes to your Jesus. Yes.

I was discussing this with some of my 5-6 grade pupils and they were saying that the explanation is making them confused as your Bible is also telling us that God is not experiencing time in the same way as humans are.

I found in the psalms chapter 90 verse 4 something that I was thinking was interesting. Yes. I am hoping that this verse is not offending you. "For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night." In the second episte of Peter chapter 3 he is writing "But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day." Yes, he is.

There is still one verse I was reading. It is in the 2 epistle by Timothy chapter 1 (verse 9). It is saying "Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began." I am thinking that if Jesus was created before the world began then the explanation of God talking in the present during your old testament times is not logical. Yes. I am hoping that I am not upsetting you. Yes.

I am very sorry but I am finding your explanation unsatisfactory for my primary school pupils. I am certain that I am ignorant and this must be the cause for this. Yes, I am. I am thinking that if God is outside time then the past and present and future do not matter and if Jesus has been there outside time also (it is in the John Gospel chapter 1 and you can read it over there), then the past and present and future of no saviour besides the God part of your trinity must still be considered. Yes. I am very sorry if this is offensive and I am very happy that you all are answering my questions. Yes. I am thinking now that the professors at the university were correct when they were telling us that you Bible is a process of many layers and relicts and corrections and I am thinking that this could be the most simple explanation. Yes.

[Ezekiel Bathfire]

Re: Problem? The Bible says there is no saviour.

Yes, Mr. Bathfire. It is Harsha Shah here and I am replying to you kind post. I am thinking about the concepts of time and eternity.

Well, don’t take all day about it, I have 3 irate letters to send to the editor of the New York Times – get on with your point.

I am appreciating your post and I can relate to the flexibility of time because Mr. Einstein found out that time is not the same everywhere.

Many of us notice that standing in line at a bank or somewhere, time drags and then you get served and it’s all over before you know it. It’s a mystery.

I was discussing this with some of my 5-6 grade pupils

Look, Miss Shah,I fail to see why you need to discuss anything about religion – there must be a man in your life who has some control over you, be it only a younger brother.

God is not experiencing time in the same way as humans are.

Perfectly true.

I found in the psalms chapter 90 verse 4 something that I was thinking was interesting. Yes. I am hoping that this verse is not offending you.

It is not possible for the Word of God to offend anyone!!!1!”

"For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night." In the second epistle of Peter chapter 3 he is writing "But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day." Yes, he is.

I see no problem at all, other than your typically female lack of intellect and indiscriminate use of the continuous aspect of verbs.
Let me give you this

Psalms:90:4: For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night.

"But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day."

as = like; as does not mean is

Basically, this is in agreement with Gen:1:1 – God sees and does the big things and M't:10:29 – God notes every detail - : Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father. (Interesting Biblical fact, between this and Lu:12:6: Are not five sparrows sold for two farthings, and not one of them is forgotten before God? We see that the price of sparrows is falling: a sign of deflation and economic collapse in the Roman Empire, and thus, skipping a few points of history, foretelling the re-establishing of God’s Kingdom in the USA. )

There is still one verse I was reading. It is in the 2 epistle by Timothy chapter 1 (verse 9). It is saying "Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began." I am thinking that if Jesus was created before the world began then the explanation of God talking in the present during your old testament times is not logical. Yes. I am hoping that I am not upsetting you. Yes.

Please read my post again – Jesus God and The Holy Spirit were always “here” – but they were in Heaven. Jesus was doing a few things in Heaven and the Universe in general during OT times but it has not yet been revealed unto us exactly what they were. Likewise, the Holy Spirit was going about Its/His duties, blessing people and the like in OT times.

There are two points here.

• When Yahweh spoke those words, He was speaking to the people of Earth. Yahweh knew that there was Jesus, but Jesus was in Heaven, not on Earth, whereas Yahweh was everywhere.
• When Yahweh spoke those words, He used the present tense, indicating that "at that time" there was no Savior other than Him.

Later we find that Yahweh sends Jesus to Earth, and that Jesus turns out to be a representation of Yahweh, The Holy Spirit and Himself, Who, together, form the only One True God.

I am very sorry but I am finding your explanation unsatisfactory for my primary school pupils.

I worried about that until I received reports from a True Christian living near you. He asked around and it turns out that the children all understand most of the Bible but think you are stupid and blame “quotas for minorities” for your even having some sort of job.

I am thinking now that the professors at the university were correct when they were telling us that you Bible is a process of many layers and relicts and corrections and I am thinking that this could be the most simple explanation. Yes.

Really?... It’s possible to "think" this, is it? The perfect book dictated by the Perfect Being, and you think that some jewish, pro-abortion, socialist, so-called “arts professor” is telling the truth rather than being an apologist for atheism?