[TrevorL]

Re: Greetings from Ausralia

Under Investigation
This title on the LHS works both ways – you are examining me, and I am examining this forum. So far I have been treated badly and I am tempted to reply in equal measure, but I feel I should have some restraint. I feel I should to a certain extent give back as good as I am given in the hope that some modification of your methods and attitude may ensue.

I draw attention now to the small squares on the right hand side, which state:
“TrevorL is a sinner who has rejected Christ and tithing to Landover and is on the fast bus to Aeternal Damnation”.

I feel a certain comfort in the echo of “a sinner” in the following:
Luke 18:9-14 (KJV): 9 And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others: 10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican. 11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. 12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess. 13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner. 14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

On the other hand three respondents to this thread have almost been rewarded already:
“Pastor Ezekiel will sit at the right hand of Jesus Himself come the glory!”
“Ezekiel Bathfire will sit at the right hand of Jesus Himself come the glory!”
“Elmer G. White will sit at the right hand of Jesus Himself come the glory!”

James and John also sought the seats of honour:
Matthew 20:20-23 (KJV): 20 Then came to him the mother of Zebedee’s children with her sons, worshipping him, and desiring a certain thing of him. 21 And he said unto her, What wilt thou? She saith unto him, Grant that these my two sons may sit, the one on thy right hand, and the other on the left, in thy kingdom. 22 But Jesus answered and said, Ye know not what ye ask. Are ye able to drink of the cup that I shall drink of, and to be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with? They say unto him, We are able. 23 And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with: but to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared of my Father.

Perhaps this is why Jesus was not able to divulge what Apostle was to sit at his right hand at the time, because there would arise in the Latter Days at least three more claimants to the right-hand position, Pastor Ezekiel, Ezekiel Bathfire and Elmer G. White. At least James and John agreed to defer to each other, and reluctantly accept the left-hand side, but each of you are demanding the right-hand side.

But Jesus has rebuked each of you already in his parable:
Luke 14:7-11 (KJV): 7 And he put forth a parable to those which were bidden, when he marked how they chose out the chief rooms; saying unto them, 8 When thou art bidden of any man to a wedding, sit not down in the highest room; lest a more honourable man than thou be bidden of him; 9 And he that bade thee and him come and say to thee, Give this man place; and thou begin with shame to take the lowest room. 10 But when thou art bidden, go and sit down in the lowest room; that when he that bade thee cometh, he may say unto thee, Friend, go up higher: then shalt thou have worship in the presence of them that sit at meat with thee. 11 For whosoever exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

1 Corinthians 4:3-5 (KJV): 3 But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man’s judgment: yea, I judge not mine own self. 4 For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord. 5 Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.

Kind regards
Trevor

No prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation (or origin, margin). This statement has given rise to a great variety of interpretations. Some are absurd, such as the view that interpretation of the Bible is the right of the church alone and that individuals should not study it! (Believer’s Bible Commentary)

2 Peter 1:20-21 (KJV Bible Commentary): No prophecy of Scripture ever arises from human ingenuity, for never did a single Old Testament prophecy come at the impulse of a man; what those men spoke was the Word of God because they were being influenced by the Holy Spirit.

[WilliamJenningsBryan]

Re: Greetings from Ausralia

Under Investigation
This title on the LHS works both ways – you are examining me, and I am examining this forum. So far I have been treated badly and I am tempted to reply in equal measure, but I feel I should have some restraint. I feel I should to a certain extent give back as good as I am given in the hope that some modification of your methods and attitude may ensue.

I draw attention now to the small squares on the right hand side, which state:
“TrevorL is a sinner who has rejected Christ and tithing to Landover and is on the fast bus to Aeternal Damnation”.

- blah, blah, blah - and other assorted miscellaneous whinings…

Son, I think Jesus is trying to tell you that you are an unctuous, tiresome, tedious, and self-absorbed twit.

For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?

- Mark 8:36


Of such an one will I glory: yet of myself I will not glory, but in mine infirmities.

For though I would desire to glory, I shall not be a fool; for I will say the truth: but now I forbear, lest any man should think of me above that which he seeth me to be, or that he heareth of me.

And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me.

And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.

I am become a fool in glorying; ye have compelled me: for I ought to have been commended of you: for in nothing am I behind the very chiefest apostles, though I be nothing.

Truly the signs of an apostle were wrought among you in all patience, in signs, and wonders, and mighty deeds.

- 2 Corinthians 12:5-12

[Alan Swallows Waiting for Email Confirmation]

Re: Greetings from Ausralia

Under Investigation . . .

From our discussion, I get the impression you always think you're right. You don't go to a regular fellowship because everybody else is wrong. Only you can see the truth. Only you know how to interpret the Bible correctly. Everybody else, they're fools. Even when someone shows you from the Bible that you're wrong, you're still right. The Bible may be wrong, but God forbid that TrevorL should ever be wrong.

Now you're more concerned about the color of the squares next to your name than you are about the state of your soul. The Bible says it best:

Proverbs 12:1 Whoso loveth instruction loveth knowledge: but he that hateth reproof is brutish.

Perhaps this is why Jesus was not able to divulge what Apostle was to sit at his right hand at the time, because there would arise in the Latter Days at least three more claimants to the right-hand position, Pastor Ezekiel, Ezekiel Bathfire and Elmer G. White. At least James and John agreed to defer to each other, and reluctantly accept the left-hand side, but each of you are demanding the right-hand side.

While we're on the subject, do you think Judas will end up getting a throne in heaven?

Matthew 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

[TrevorL]

Re: Greetings from Ausralia

Greetings again Alan and Greetings Alvin Moss and WilliamJenningsBryan,

You can't say people choose to follow God without flat-out contradicting the Bible. "Ye have not chosen" cannot be reconciled with "Ye have chosen." "It is not of him that willeth" cannot be reconciled with "it is of him that willeth." "No man can come unto me except the Father draw him" cannot be reconciled with "any man can come unto me."

I do not want to get into a full discussion on predestination, partly because it is complicated, and partly because many 1000s of words have been used to discuss this subject on either side.

I have briefly read a complicated article that has summarised some of the history of this subject, starting with the first major protagonists Augustine and Pelagius. Then it speaks of some more recent prominent advocates of either side, with some variation, such as Calvin, Luther, Arminius, Whitefield and Wesley. The article goes into some of the finer detail of some of the arguments and differences, and these things would need to be considered very carefully.

The article concludes with the author’s particular view, and I will only quote the first two points:
The Bible position then is this:
1. It insists upon God’s foreknowledge. He knows which of us will be in the Kingdom, because He has foreseen which of us will be believers and trust in His mercy.
2. It insists—nay, its very existence demands—man’s free will, to receive or reject God’s grace, and after claiming to have received it, either to grow in it or to do despite to it and to fall from it.

I tentatively agree with the above and these two statements seem to accommodate the Scriptures that I previously quoted and that you have not really discussed.

Also I have a book A History of the Baptists by Robert G Torbet 3rd Edition. He speaks of some Hyper-Calvinistic Baptists in America on pages 261-263. Are you part of these groups, and does the Landover Baptist Church also represent these groups?

These two references are part of my library, and this is what I suggested that there is a need for reference books. What we can present and discuss on a forum is minimal by comparison to some of these resources. For my part I am not really interested in this subject.

Trevor, I heard on the evening news tonight that Austria is on fire. How long do you think it will be before the fire gets to your neighborhood? God must be very angry to burn up your whole island. Once the whole place is flaming, there is no place to go. You may have to swim out in the ocean with the sharks and the Indonesian illegal aliens. I'm glad Austria is a long way from America, because we have enough trouble with the Mexicans swimming over here without Austrians and Indonesians.

You certainly have a vivid imagination. The rain quenched most of the fires after some damage. I have never had a fire in my area, but a mate some 20 years ago needed to climb on his roof to put out spot fires from some ash that came from nearby fires.

I am not sure why everyone keeps on reverting back to Austria on this thread, rather than Australia, possibly for a bit of fun. We had an excellent Austrian musician visit Sydney recently, but my most vivid recollections of Austria is from the Sound of Music and Julie Andrews singing in the hills. It also reminds me of that dark period of history, when the little man from Austria plunged the world into war and persecuted the Jews. With Austria so much on forum members’ minds, are some secret admirers of Hitler? I also think of the Holy Roman Empire and its seat in Austria. Do some admire this era as well?

Son, I think Jesus is trying to tell you that you are an unctuous, tiresome, tedious, and self-absorbed twit.

I am not sure that it is Jesus saying these things, but I will consider your opinion.

Alan, I will also consider your latest Post, possibly not very complimentary either. But time is at a premium at the moment. When I have time I would like to assess how many churches and other attached groups is represented by the Landover Baptist Church. You seem to be a strong supporter, eg KJV 1611 only links that you provided, even though you have only recently joined this forum.

Kind regards
Trevor

[Elmer G. White]

Re: Greetings from Ausralia

...With Austria so much on forum members’ minds, are some secret admirers of Hitler? I also think of the Holy Roman Empire and its seat in Austria. Do some admire this era as well?

Dear Trevor,

You are apparently starting to Repent as you no longer attempt to make up "rational" explanations why you reject the Pure Message™ of Christ as mediated by our Church.

You take up the Hitler card!



This means that as you have no other means to fight against the Truth™ you take up fallacies. This is excellent news (while it is irrational) as it signifies that your defenses are almost down.

The Hitler card: a form of "guilt by association" fallacy. By connecting a group of people (us) to something that is generally considered repulsive (Mr. Hitler; the Catholic Empire) you can avoid tackling the actual issues.

Why is it a fallacy? It is a fallacy because we are discussing doctrine and how to read the Bible. In that context, the identity and affiliations of an opponent are irrelevant. To put it bluntly, even if Hitler had authored the best and ultimate commentary on the Bible it would still be valid. And, even if his texts on the Bible were valid, his actions could still be repulsive. We can obviously discuss his actions but they have no effect on his other work (of course, this is a hypothetical example).

We have to be able to differentiate the message and the messenger.

Galatians 4:16
Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?

I am sure this was helpful.

Yours in Christ,

Elmer

[Alan Swallows Waiting for Email Confirmation]

Re: Greetings from Ausralia

I do not want to get into a full discussion on predestination, partly because it is complicated, and partly because many 1000s of words have been used to discuss this subject on either side.

I don't think it's complicated. It's unpalatable to most people, however, so they come up with complicated explanations to get around it.

The Bible position then is this:
1. It insists upon God’s foreknowledge. He knows which of us will be in the Kingdom, because He has foreseen which of us will be believers and trust in His mercy.
2. It insists—nay, its very existence demands—man’s free will, to receive or reject God’s grace, and after claiming to have received it, either to grow in it or to do despite to it and to fall from it.

God hasn't just foreseen who will believe - He has predetermined it.

Ephesians 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love.

Indeed, no one can believe unless God gives them faith.

Ephesians 2:8-9: 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Faith doesn't come from within, it comes from God. We have nothing good within us.

Romans 3:10-11: 10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: 11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

So you can't lose your salvation, your gift of faith.

Romans 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

John 10:28-29: 28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. 29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

I can prove this is true from real life. No one who genuinely believed has ever lost their faith. If anyone says they have they are a liar.

I don't know what Bible the writers of that article were using and I notice you didn't use the Bible to support your position either, you quoted an article.

I tentatively agree with the above and these two statements seem to accommodate the Scriptures that I previously quoted and that you have not really discussed.

You tried to tell us Matthew said people close their own eyes to the truth (Matthew 13:15) and I quoted to you the parts of the Bible that say God closes their eyes.

Also I have a book A History of the Baptists by Robert G Torbet 3rd Edition. He speaks of some Hyper-Calvinistic Baptists in America on pages 261-263. Are you part of these groups, and does the Landover Baptist Church also represent these groups?

As I said earlier, I'm still fairly new here so I can't tell you Landover's official position on Calvinism. You'll notice, however, that I haven't quoted from any theology textbook. I've only quoted from the Bible.

These two references are part of my library, and this is what I suggested that there is a need for reference books. What we can present and discuss on a forum is minimal by comparison to some of these resources. For my part I am not really interested in this subject.

I know you're not interested in predestination and election, things spoken of extensively in the Bible, especially in the New Testament. You seem bent on even denying the very definition of these words. I can't stand idly by when people deny what the Bible says just because they don't like it.

Predestination is an unpopular topic because it says a lot about God that most people would construe as negative. It also says a lot about man's condition that most people would construe as negative.

I'm starting to feel like Isaiah.

Isaiah 6:9-10: 9 And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not. 10 Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.

I pray God will open your eyes.

[TrevorL]

Re: Greetings from Ausralia

Greetings again Alan,

I appreciate your response, and your concern, but I feel your comments are a little inappropriate.

From our discussion, I get the impression you always think you're right. You don't go to a regular fellowship because everybody else is wrong. Only you can see the truth. Only you know how to interpret the Bible correctly. Everybody else, they're fools. Even when someone shows you from the Bible that you're wrong, you're still right. The Bible may be wrong, but God forbid that TrevorL should ever be wrong.

I am sorry that you have gained that impression. Admittedly I have not accepted everything or even the majority of what you have claimed. Even the Scripture you have quoted in my opinion needs to be balanced with other Scripture. You have not really answered some of the Scripture that I raised in an attempt to balance some of the ideas that you have raised.

I am not sure what you suggest by “a regular fellowship”. It is certainly not a church as such, but it is a warm fellowship. We are also in fellowship with similar meetings in the area, some larger, some smaller. Even you stated that you are “a lay pastor of a small home church, I can understand the need to break away from the mainstream”, but now you seem to be reproving me because I do not attend one of the recognised “Churches” in my area.

Now you're more concerned about the color of the squares next to your name than you are about the state of your soul.

I consider the squares and the message stated there needs to be considered. I have already stated that I started to seriously believe the gospel in my later teenage years. I was baptised when I was 21 by immersion in water in identification with the death and resurrection of Christ after a belief and public confession of the gospel of Christ concerning the things of the Name and the Kingdom. Acts 8:5,12.

The Bible says it best: Proverbs 12:1 Whoso loveth instruction loveth knowledge: but he that hateth reproof is brutish.

Yes, I agree.

While we're on the subject, do you think Judas will end up getting a throne in heaven?

Acts 1:15-26 tells us that Judas’ position was replaced by Matthias, but I believe that the regeneration is the 1000 year reign of Jesus upon the earth, when Jesus returns to establish his Kingdom upon the earth and sit upon the throne of David in Jerusalem. I believe that these 12 thrones will be in Israel and they will be ruling over the restored and converted 12 tribes of Israel Isaiah 2:1-4, Daniel 2:44, Zechariah 14.

Micah 4:1-8 (KJV): 1 But in the last days it shall come to pass, that the mountain of the house of the LORD shall be established in the top of the mountains, and it shall be exalted above the hills; and people shall flow unto it. 2 And many nations shall come, and say, Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, and to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for the law shall go forth of Zion, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. 3 And he shall judge among many people, and rebuke strong nations afar off; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up a sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more. 4 But they shall sit every man under his vine and under his fig tree; and none shall make them afraid: for the mouth of the LORD of hosts hath spoken it. 5 For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of the LORD our God for ever and ever. 6 In that day, saith the LORD, will I assemble her that halteth, and I will gather her that is driven out, and her that I have afflicted; 7 And I will make her that halted a remnant, and her that was cast far off a strong nation: and the LORD shall reign over them in mount Zion from henceforth, even for ever. 8 And thou, O tower of the flock, the strong hold of the daughter of Zion, unto thee shall it come, even the first dominion; the kingdom shall come to the daughter of Jerusalem.

Kind regards
Trevor

Psalm 38:12-22 (KJV): 12 They also that seek after my life lay snares for me: and they that seek my hurt speak mischievous things, and imagine deceits all the day long. 13 But I, as a deaf man, heard not; and I was as a dumb man that openeth not his mouth. 14 Thus I was as a man that heareth not, and in whose mouth are no reproofs. 15 For in thee, O LORD, do I hope: thou wilt hear, O Lord my God. 16 For I said, Hear me, lest otherwise they should rejoice over me: when my foot slippeth, they magnify themselves against me. 17 For I am ready to halt, and my sorrow is continually before me. 18 For I will declare mine iniquity; I will be sorry for my sin. 19 But mine enemies are lively, and they are strong: and they that hate me wrongfully are multiplied. 20 They also that render evil for good are mine adversaries; because I follow the thing that good is. 21 Forsake me not, O LORD: O my God, be not far from me. 22 Make haste to help me, O Lord my salvation.

[TrevorL]

Re: Greetings from Ausralia

Greetings again Elmer,

You are apparently starting to Repent as you no longer attempt to make up "rational" explanations why you reject the Pure Message™ of Christ as mediated by our Church.

Are you suggesting that only the Landover Baptist Church is the only true mediator of the Truth? Please explain "Pure Message™ of Christ" and how this ™ Message is unique to your Church.

Kind regards
Trevor

Psalm 38:15, 21-22 (KJV): 15 For in thee, O LORD, do I hope: thou wilt hear, O Lord my God. 21 Forsake me not, O LORD: O my God, be not far from me. 22 Make haste to help me, O Lord my salvation.

[Elmer G. White]

Re: Greetings from Ausralia

Greetings again Elmer,
Are you suggesting that only the Landover Baptist Church is the only true mediator of the Truth? Please explain "Pure Message™ of Christ" and how this ™ Message is unique to your Church.

Kind regards
Trevor

Dear Trevor,

Of course I am not suggesting that. I do not have knowledge of all the possible denominations on Earth to say that.

You are, in fact, making your own interpretation of my post and then making an attack against this interpretation with loaded questions. It is a fallacy. It is called the straw man. You can easily find it if you make an Internet search or pick up a book about argumentation. This straw man is also well known in the Bible. It has a slightly different name over there.

Exodus 20:16
Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.

Of course, this type of argumentation of yours that is fallacious goes beyond my humble words. Your own private interpretation. You can also do it with the Bible by either choosing the pericopes that fit your image of God or selecting the commentaries that please you. In addition to being appeals to authority (which is a fallacy in many cases), they often lead to straw men.

Your ad hominems are a bit too numerous to assess here. I'm also waiting for a tu quoque.





Yours in Christ,

Elmer

[TrevorL]

Re: Greetings from Ausralia

Greetings again Alan,

I don't think it's complicated. It's unpalatable to most people, however, so they come up with complicated explanations to get around it. God hasn't just foreseen who will believe - He has predetermined it.

I appreciate your additional comments on predestination, but I have nothing further to say on this subject at the moment.

Indeed, no one can believe unless God gives them faith.

The source of faith is from God when people hear his word. Without this word there would be no saving faith.
Romans 10:17 (KJV): So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Faith doesn't come from within, it comes from God. We have nothing good within us.

We have been given the capacity to believe.

So you can't lose your salvation, your gift of faith. I can prove this is true from real life. No one who genuinely believed has ever lost their faith. If anyone says they have they are a liar.

Scripture please. Please consider the Parable of the Sower. Also the following suggests some will lose their love and fail and not be saved.
Matthew 24:12-13 (KJV): And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. 13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

I don't know what Bible the writers of that article were using and I notice you didn't use the Bible to support your position either, you quoted an article.

This was from a well-known and respected expositor in my fellowship. If you read the whole article perhaps you would understand. I tend to respect those who have given their lives in simple and clear exposition. He has written a few excellent books as well.

You tried to tell us Matthew said people close their own eyes to the truth (Matthew 13:15) and I quoted to you the parts of the Bible that say God closes their eyes.

I tried to balance what you claim with Matthew’s record of the same event, and his record shows a wider perspective, indicating that the speech of Jesus on that occasion had a wider perspective. Its an old expression, that you need to read between the lines to get at the truth when you have two reports of an incident.

As I said earlier, I'm still fairly new here so I can't tell you Landover's official position on Calvinism. You'll notice, however, that I haven't quoted from any theology textbook. I've only quoted from the Bible.

You have also added your understanding of these verses. I should imagine that there is a range of opinion on this subject – you should check.

I know you're not interested in predestination and election, things spoken of extensively in the Bible, especially in the New Testament. You seem bent on even denying the very definition of these words. I can't stand idly by when people deny what the Bible says just because they don't like it.

I am interested in this subject and read the article that I mentioned and was very satisfied. I also have another article to read when I have time. Also any serious commentary on Romans will discuss this topic. I have a large collection, and some that I prefer than others. But you do not like reference books, and expect the Spirit to guide you every time you read the Bible and express an opinion. But others have read the Bible and expressed an opinion and have written them down for my benefit. You seem to reject their conclusions.

Predestination is an unpopular topic because it says a lot about God that most people would construe as negative. It also says a lot about man's condition that most people would construe as negative.

Perhaps even the simple can assess that hyper-Calvinism does not line up with the true character of God as revealed in the Scriptures John 3:14-17.

I'm starting to feel like Isaiah. I pray God will open your eyes.

I will accept in part your sentiments, but also I have not seen an abundant evidence of your discernment of the truth of the Scriptures as yet.

Kind regards
Trevor

[TrevorL]

Re: Greetings from Ausralia

Greetings again Elmer,

Of course I am not suggesting that. I do not have knowledge of all the possible denominations on Earth to say that.

You are, in fact, making your own interpretation of my post and then making an attack against this interpretation with loaded questions. It is a fallacy. It is called the straw man. You can easily find it if you make an Internet search or pick up a book about argumentation. This straw man is also well known in the Bible. It has a slightly diferent name over there.

Exodus 20:16
Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.

Of course, this type of argumentation of yours that is fallacious goes beyond my humble words. Your own private interpretation. You can also do it with the Bible by either choosing the pericopes that fit your image of God or selecting the commentaries that please you. In addition to being appeals to authority (which is a fallacy in many cases), they often lead to straw men.

Your ad hominems are a bit too numerous to assess here. I'm also waiting for a tu quoque.

I accept your rebuke in part. BTW have you noticed that a person with Administrative Ability has been adding a quotation below my posts, and until recently it was 2 Peter 1:20 quoted out of context:" 2 Peter 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation." I answered this progressively over a number of Posts. Is this misquotation popular in the Landover Baptist Church? I also responded to the more recent quotation " Psalms 38:5 My wounds stink and are corrupt because of my foolishness." which seemed to be placed in a derogatory sense. I sympathasise with David who was maligned when he was sick, and the caption "retarded abo" is in this vein as well. Nice forum and administrators and people? (mild rebuke)

Kind regards
Trevor

[Basilissa]

Re: Greetings from Ausralia

Greetings again Alan,
I appreciate your additional comments on predestination, but I have nothing further to say on this subject at the moment.
The source of faith is from God when people hear his word. Without this word there would be no saving faith.
Romans 10:17 (KJV): So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
We have been given the capacity to believe.

Dear Mr. Trevor,

I have noticed that you seem to be very preoccupied with what our community believes. I want to reassure you that we do not believe anything that is not in the Holy Bible.

While as a female I have no authority over you and certainly cannot teach you anything (1 Timothy 2:12), I would (silently) beg you to consider the following verses:

Psalm 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

Proverbs 16:4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

Matthew 15:13 But he answered and said, Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up.

Acts 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Romans 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
Romans 8:31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?

Romans 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth; )

Romans 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

2nd Timothy 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

2nd Thessalonians 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
2nd Thessalonians 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
2nd Thessalonians 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

Ephesians 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Ephesians 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
John 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

John 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

Jude 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

I hope that at least some of these verses were helpful in understanding what the Bible says about predestination.

[TrevorL]

Re: Greetings from Ausralia

Under Investigation Part 2 - Tithing
The title “Under Investigation”on the LHS works both ways – you are examining me, and I am examining this forum. The second part of my investigation is on the subject of Tithing.

I draw attention again to the small squares on the right hand side, which state:
“TrevorL is a sinner who has rejected Christ and tithing to Landover and is on the fast bus to Aeternal Damnation”.
To extract the portion for this investigation:
“TrevorL … has rejected … tithing to Landover … .”

This is a blatant UNTRUTH. I have never accepted nor rejected tithing to Landover. No one has requested, and no one has explained WHY I should start tithing to Landover.

Now as far as I am aware Landover is a Baptist Church somewhere in the US. Judging by the Confederate Flags possibly in the South, but not every forum member has this Icon. Is this particular Church unique in some way that they almost demand a tithe, or rather THE TITHE from me. I have been in my present fellowship for 50 years, and two weeks after joining a forum with the Landover Baptist Church name attached, the forum administrators are trying to shame me into paying them THE TITHE. This appears to me to be a gross financial SCAM. In my vicinity there are 7 Baptist Churches. I have attended two of these, and although on one occasion I was invited by a work-mate to a third I did not attend. But there was never any suggestion that I should start tithing to any of these 7 Baptist Churches. I should imagine that if I continued to attend, or join, or be accepted as a member, and IF it was the general practice in that Church, then I would start to pay the tithe.

But let me also illustrate this based upon a true story, even though it was not a Baptist Church, but a Pentecostal Church. The Pentecostal Church REALLY likes to tithe and they also preach the prosperity doctrine. One Pentecostal was a strong supporter of his local church and he paid his tithe regularly. Nearing or at retirement he had saved sufficient money for a 3 month overseas trip, and being religious he wanted to visit some churches in his travels. The local Pastor demanded that he should continue to pay his tithe in his absence, but the Pentecostal stated that he wanted to make his contribution to the various churches that he visited on his travels.

So I ask the question, why do you think the Landover Church should demand my tithe, when I already have other responsibilities and committed to maintaining these? I certainly have not converted to the Landover Baptist Church, nor have I cut my ties with my present fellowship. Would the Landover Baptist Church and this forum demand the tithe from members of all the 7 Baptist Churches in my area?

While perusing this thread I notice that some of the forum members are “Tithing Mangers”, another is a “Bronze Tither”, another “Gold Tither” and another “Platinum Tither”. Now I thought a tithe was 1/10th, so what is the distinction between Bronze, Gold and Platinum Tither? Does this reflect 1/10th, 2/10th and 3/10th, or perhaps 10%, 15% and 20%? Or does it indicate that the actual amount that they contribute, depending on how wealthy they are? Does the Landover Baptist Church preach the Prosperity Doctrine? Are the gold and platinum icons an indication of this Prosperity Doctrine?

Kind regards
Trevor

Psalm 38:15, 21-22 (KJV): 15 For in thee, O LORD, do I hope: thou wilt hear, O Lord my God. 21 Forsake me not, O LORD: O my God, be not far from me. 22 Make haste to help me, O Lord my salvation.

[Alan Swallows Waiting for Email Confirmation]

Re: Greetings from Ausralia

We have been given the capacity to believe.

Since when has God ever demanded of people something they have natural capacity to do? God demands perfection (Matthew 5:48). We are by nature imperfect (Isaiah 64:6). God demands faith (Hebrews 11:6). You don't think He also gave everyone the natural capacity to believe too, do you?

Ephesians 2 is very clear. Faith does not come from within you.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God.

I suppose God gives faith to some and denies it to others.

Scripture please.

Well, I did quote Scripture supporting the idea that you can't lose your salvation, but if you want another verse, here you go:

Philippians 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

Its an old expression, that you need to read between the lines to get at the truth when you have two reports of an incident.

At least you're being honest that you think the Bible may contain unreliable or conflicting accounts.

You have also added your understanding of these verses. I should imagine that there is a range of opinion on this subject – you should check.

I'm not interested in opinion. I'm only interested in God's truth.

Perhaps even the simple can assess that hyper-Calvinism does not line up with the true character of God as revealed in the Scriptures John 3:14-17.

I've only quoted the Bible, not John Calvin. I think the reason you don't like the Bible verses I quoted is because you don't like the implication if they're true.

God demands that people hear Him, yet He makes them deaf. He not only foresaw who would believe but decided who would believe and who wouldn't before the beginning of time. He planned to give eternal bliss to some and eternal torment to others. God's choice to save us wasn't due to anything good in us because there is no good in us. His choice is therefore arbitrary.

This is not the God you worship, as you said, but it's the God of the Bible. You need to stop pretending.

[Ezekiel Bathfire]

Re: Greetings from Australia

You seem to have a fierce appearance, and in my over-imagination (part of my condition)

Physical appearance is of little consequence as I often explain when introducing my wife - it is the appearance of the soul that is vital to Salvation.

However, I do agree with you that your imagination is over-fertile and that you should not be applying it to God's Word so that the Holy Words take on a meaning convenient to your preconceived notions.

I suspected that you are Pastor Ezekiel’s father.

That would be the late Lamentations Flint, to whom I am only distantly related.

I have watched only in the last few weeks the BBC series “Inquisition”, and the last session was on witch-hunting in England during King James era.[...]Then after Elmer’s type of breaking up words, you were in charge of throwing them into the village pond or “Bath” until they drowned, or setting the torch on them “Fire”, though some were slowly hanged or lynched.

Witch-hunting was and remains a very necessary occupation: had there been no witches, then there would have been no need. King James, the king to whom God spoke also knew that there were witches and we assume from the same source and by virtue of Ex:22:18, for which I doubt even you could provide an imaginative translation.

I suggest you look around you at certain women, despised by the Christian population, work out their frustrations by creating evil - their skills and powers must emanate from somewhere...

That they are by no means as common as they were in the 17th century is confirmation of the success of eradication.

PS. The BBC is a socialist, liberal organization that will lead you to the Gates of Hell, and you will be smiling as you go - they too have a high proportion of female employees at a relatively high level... need I say more?