[James Hutchins]

Re: Greetings from Austria

Greetings again Alan, and Greetings Dr Laurence Niles, Alphonse Alban and James Hutchins,

..................
I read the entire Bible and seek to grow in understanding, but over the years I have come to understand some portions better than others. Perhaps this selection has been because of my limited capacity or dedication, but if I asked you to give a brief but comprehensive summary of Psalm 8, Isaiah 6 and Galatians could you respond. Take an obscure feature: Why did the Seraphim cover his face with one pair of wings, his feet with another pair of wings and with the other pair fly? Most probably you could ask me how I understand other portions of the Scriptures and I would have difficulty. The reserve land of a few acres near us was granted to a local tribe and the government built them a duplex housing, and a family or two of Aboriginal descent has occupied this some ten years ago. They have been good neighbours. My contact and involvement and identification with Jesus was and is a gradual process and I could list a few defining moments in my teen years and a few times of crisis and failure. I was baptised by immersion in water at 21 years after a belief and confession of the gospel Acts 8:5,12.

Kind regards
Trevor

Absolutely. Any person to whom God choose to fit with a brain can do it. That is the beauty of the Bible. It was written for the simplest of minds.
Psalm 8
8 O Lord, our Lord, how excellent is thy name in all the earth! who hast set thy glory above the heavens.
2 Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings hast thou ordained strength because of thine enemies, that thou mightest still the enemy and the avenger.
3 When I consider thy heavens, the work of thy fingers, the moon and the stars, which thou hast ordained;
4 What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him?
5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour.
6 Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet:
7 All sheep and oxen, yea, and the beasts of the field;
8 The fowl of the air, and the fish of the sea, and whatsoever passeth through the paths of the seas.
9 O Lord our Lord, how excellent is thy name in all the earth!


Isaiah 6
6 In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple.
2 Above it stood the seraphims: each one had six wings; with twain he covered his face, and with twain he covered his feet, and with twain he did fly.
3 And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the Lord of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory.
4 And the posts of the door moved at the voice of him that cried, and the house was filled with smoke.
5 Then said I, Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the Lord of hosts.
6 Then flew one of the seraphims unto me, having a live coal in his hand, which he had taken with the tongs from off the altar:
7 And he laid it upon my mouth, and said, Lo, this hath touched thy lips; and thine iniquity is taken away, and thy sin purged.
8 Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for us? Then said I, Here am I; send me.
9 And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not.
10 Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.
11 Then said I, Lord, how long? And he answered, Until the cities be wasted without inhabitant, and the houses without man, and the land be utterly desolate,
12 And the Lord have removed men far away, and there be a great forsaking in the midst of the land.
13 But yet in it shall be a tenth, and it shall return, and shall be eaten: as a teil tree, and as an oak, whose substance is in them, when they cast their leaves: so the holy seed shall be the substance thereof.


Galatians 1
1 Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead
2 And all the brethren which are with me, unto the churches of Galatia:
3 Grace be to you and peace from God the Father, and from our Lord Jesus Christ,
4 Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:
5 To whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.
6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
9 As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
10 For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ.
11 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.
12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.
13 For ye have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews' religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it:
14 And profited in the Jews' religion above many my equals in mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers.
15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace,
16 To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:
17 Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus.
18 Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter, and abode with him fifteen days.
19 But other of the apostles saw I none, save James the Lord's brother.
20 Now the things which I write unto you, behold, before God, I lie not.
21 Afterwards I came into the regions of Syria and Cilicia;
22 And was unknown by face unto the churches of Judaea which were in Christ:
23 But they had heard only, That he which persecuted us in times past now preacheth the faith which once he destroyed.
24 And they glorified God in me.




If you need more, let me know.

[TrevorL]

Re: Greetings from Austria

Greetings again Alan and James Hutchins,

Are we reading the same Bible?
Who is He? It's God who blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts so they couldn't believe.

I propose the following process of decline and hardening:
1. Jesus spoke in parables so that people wouldn't understand. He did not want their sins to be forgiven.
2. God hardened people's hearts so that they wouldn't believe the miracles of Jesus because He didn't want to heal them (John 12:39-40).
3. After blinding people to the truth right in front of them, God will punish them for eternity for not seeing it.

It seems we could have a different reading or discernment of the ONE Bible, and a different perspective of the ONE God, who is not a respecter of persons. I noticed that you quoted Mark’s record, but Matthew’s record helps to give a wider perspective:
Matthew 13:13-15 (KJV): 13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand. 14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive: 15 For this people’s heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Jesus had already stated that God’s choice of individuals was not arbitrary alone, but because certain were “wise and prudent”, while the disciples were “babes”.
Matthew 11:25-26 (KJV): 25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes. 26 Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight.

And immediately after this he makes a universal call to ALL:
Matthew 11:28-30 (KJV): 28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. 29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. 30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

What didn't you like about them?

Because the Bible in a year comments on Isaiah 6 expressed similar sentiments to what you have now stated, that God arbitrarily blinds and then punishes certain individuals. This is not the God I worship.

Why? It's all God's word.

Romans 7 is principally a Law environment, while Romans 8 is a Spirit environment. The Law and its negative environment of Commandments did not bring faith, humility and obedience in most that were under the Law.

Absolutely. Any person to whom God choose to fit with a brain can do it. That is the beauty of the Bible. It was written for the simplest of minds.
Psalm 8: 1-8
Isaiah 6: 1-13
2 Above it stood the seraphims: each one had six wings; with twain he covered his face, and with twain he covered his feet, and with twain he did fly.
Galatians 1:1-24
If you need more, let me know.

Yes, for brevity I left one verse for comment. Could you please explain who or what are the Seraphims, and why did one of them cover his face with two wings, and his feet with two wings and with two others fly? Does these symbolic or actual actions by the Seraphim have a fulfillment in the OT or the NT? Or was it some simple irrelevant detail that any brain can see and understand?

Kind regards
Trevor

[Pastor Ezekiel]

Re: Greetings from Austria

This is not the God I worship.



Kind regards
Trevor

Well friend, there is only one God and that is the God of the 1611 King James Bible Authorized Edition. You can of course choose to worship Him or not, as He gave you free will for such decisions. But what you CANNOT do is reinterpret or cherry pick which verses you endorse from His Holy Word. God is always right, He is never wrong, and He has never made a mistake.

By the way, you might be interested in taking a look at my Sermon on how one can tell which is the one TRUE Word of God. You will find it HERE.

[Elmer G. White]

Re: Greetings from Austria

... I noticed that you quoted Mark’s record, but Matthew’s record helps to give a wider perspective:

...Romans 7 is principally a Law environment, while Romans 8 is a Spirit environment. The Law and its negative environment of Commandments did not bring faith, humility and obedience in most that were under the Law...

Kind regards
Trevor

Dear Trevor,

I think that you are in danger. You have presented here [my edits] two examples of thought patterns that can lead to grave consequences. You are on the edge of the chasm that falls into the pit of historical-critical Bible study, one method of exegetics. Once you start on this path which is NOT the path recommended by Jesus (Matthew 7:14), it leads into literary criticism of the Bible, dismissal of the literal reading and ultimately apostasy.

Please let me elaborate.

You are on the verge of seeing "discrepancies" between the texts of Mark and Matthew. You are not the first one to do so and unfortunately not the last one, either. Respected scholars (by the academic community, not by Jesus) have established that the Gospels do not supplement each other but, in fact, debate each other. Hence, Mark presents the "hidden messiah" of Jesus, the "adopted son" with its Greek full of semitisms but its content clearly targeted at the Hellenistic audience. Matthew opposes this by making Jesus an essentially Jewish Messiah. You dismiss the Law of Romans 7 but, in fact, Matthew is the "Gospel of Law" IF we follow this historical-critical agenda. See Matthew 5:17-18. With this path these utterances of the Law do indeed seem contradictory to Jesus' ideas about the Sabbath, etc.

Enter Luke: the man who was the first to tie the story of Jesus into History with the pre-birth scenes and, first and foremost, the Acts. The historical-critical view takes this as an effort to bind the mythical Gestalt into written history. And, please, let us not start with the "Q" the Quelle. It is just a tool of these scholars to claim that the Gospels are not original but indeed reactions of different types of the Jesus cult to each other.

John? Again (according to this secular view), we see a text created to debate especially Mark but also Matthew. No longer is Faith adequate. The synoptics are not very keen on showing Miracles of "signs", anyone can do those and you are supposed to believe based on Faith and not some conjuring tricks. I give you just a couple of examples:

Matthew 12:39
But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:

Matthew 24:24
For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

What about John? His Jesus relies on signs, i.e., Miracles to make Himself known. Apparently (according to this view), the populace of his region had failed to believe based on blind Faith but required anecdotal evidence.

John 2:11
This beginning of miracles did Jesus in Cana of Galilee, and manifested forth his glory; and his disciples believed on him.

John 20:30
And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:

This path leads to ever increasing confusion. Instead, we must just ACCEPT that the logic of the academic scholar is useless when it comes to Jesus. He does what He pleases and only requires Repentance, Faith, Acceptance and Obedience. He CAN trick us as a test.

Isaiah 66:4
I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose that in which I delighted not.

2 Thessalonians 2:11
And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

What about the Epistles? The path you have almost chosen is filled with hazards. You are making choices of "important" and "less important" based on the notion that it is more precious to concentrate on "the spiritual environment" than on the "law environment". Why? The Jesus of Matthew was fond of the Law. The next step for you could be to re-arrange the Bible based on the dating of the manuscripts? Paul first, the "pseudoepigraphies" obviously discarded? Then the Gospels and the other Epistles thereafter? What about Hebrews? Where does it stand?

Then the quest for "Historical Jesus", perhaps? Please let us not start with the "criterion of embarrassment" as it is embarrassing only for the scholars. If you choose that path the only rational way is to discard the Historical Jesus and accept the Myth Hypothesis of Christianity being one of the multiple mystery religions of the 1st Century AD. Textual analysis, historical criticism and literary analyses all lead to this conclusion: there is nothing unique about the New Testament.

We, on the other hand, know that it IS unique because unlike the fictional myths, it contains the Historical and Literate Truth™.

Please do not take this path. Instead, Accept and choose Jesus as He is (Exodus 3:14, John 3:14).


Yours in Christ,

Elmer

[Alan Swallows Waiting for Email Confirmation]

Re: Greetings from Austria

Well.... there really isn't much else to add after that enlightening homily by Dr. White.

I noticed that you quoted Mark’s record, but Matthew’s record helps to give a wider perspective:
Matthew 13:13-15 (KJV): 13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand. 14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive: 15 For this people’s heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Remember Isaiah 6 in it's original context. Like Jesus, Isaiah was sent on a mission to be misunderstood so that God could go ahead and destroy the Jews. God told him to make people's ears heavy and to shut their eyes.

Isaiah 6:8-12: 8 Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for us? Then said I, Here am I; send me. 9 And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not. 10 Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed. 11 Then said I, Lord, how long? And he answered, Until the cities be wasted without inhabitant, and the houses without man, and the land be utterly desolate, 12 And the Lord have removed men far away, and there be a great forsaking in the midst of the land.

[TrevorL]

Re: Greetings from Australia

Greetings Pastor Ezekiel, Dr Elmer White and Geetings again Alan,

Well friend, there is only one God and that is the God of the 1611 King James Bible Authorized Edition.

I agree that there is only ONE God, the God of the Bible. I use and prefer the KJV Bible. I have used the same Oxford WM KJV for the last 50 years and still take it to our meetings. At my desk I read in the morning from an Interlinear RV/KJV and although I am not happy with many aspects of the NT portion of the RV, I appreciate some of the differences in the OT portion. I enjoy the RV distinction between prose and poetry. Even simple words like “tell” and “abroad” found in the KJV have shifted in meaning over the years. One of our Senior Expositors who studied the Book of Job over many years stated that the RV was a better translation of the Book of Job.

I think that you are in danger. You have presented here [my edits] two examples of thought patterns that can lead to grave consequences. You are on the edge of the chasm that falls into the pit of historical-critical Bible study, one method of exegetics. Once you start on this path which is NOT the path recommended by Jesus (Matthew 7:14), it leads into literary criticism of the Bible, dismissal of the literal reading and ultimately apostasy.

Please let me elaborate.

You are on the verge of seeing "discrepancies" between the texts of Mark and Matthew.

I do not see a conflict between Mark and Matthew. I believe that both Mark and Matthew are a summary of the full range of what Jesus said. What I believe that this indicates is that what Jesus actually said at the time was more extensive, covering both records. The one suggests that the Jews shut their own eyes, while the other that God closed their eyes. Both are true – refer my poor attempt at explanation to Alan below.

Enter Luke: the man who was the first to tie the story of Jesus into History with the pre-birth scenes and, first and foremost, the Acts….

I believe in the FULL inspiration of the Bible and completely unfamiliar with your scholarly references to some form of higher criticism.

What about the Epistles? The path you have almost chosen is filled with hazards. You are making choices of "important" and "less important" based on the notion that it is more precious to concentrate on "the spiritual environment" than on the "law environment". Why?

ALL of the Epistles are important. EVERY word of God is important. I used the terms "spiritual environment" and "law environment" based upon what I consider is the flow of thought from Romans 7 and 8, and a careful reading of these two chapters could clarify what I was trying to say. You may have a different perception of the flow of thought from Romans 7 to Romans 8. A few key verses may be sufficient:
Romans 7:5,7-8 (KJV): 5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death. 7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet. 8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
Romans 8:2 (KJV): For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

Then the quest for "Historical Jesus", perhaps?

I believe that the four records of the life of Jesus are true and inspired.

Please do not take this path. Instead, Accept and choose Jesus as He is (Exodus 3:14, John 3:14).

Now that you have mentioned Exodus 3:14, what do you think of Tyndale’s use of the future tense in his translation?
Exodus 3:12-14 (Tyndale): 12 And he sayde: I wilbe with the. And this shalbe a token vnto the that I haue sent the: after that thou hast broughte the people out of Egipte, ye shall serue God vppon this mountayne. 13 Than sayde Moses vnto God: when I come vnto the childern of Israell and saye vnto them, the God of youre fathers hath sent me vnto you, ad they saye vnto me, what ys his name, what answere shall I geuethem? 14 Then sayde God vnto Moses: I wilbe what I wilbe: ad he sayde, this shalt thou saye vnto the children of Israel: I wilbe dyd send me to you.

Remember Isaiah 6 in it's original context. Like Jesus, Isaiah was sent on a mission to be misunderstood so that God could go ahead and destroy the Jews. God told him to make people's ears heavy and to shut their eyes.

I believe that this is one of the great enigmas or paradoxes of the Bible. Isaiah did not proceed to confuse, but together with the prophecies concerning Messiah, and the life and example of Hezekiah, he revealed the light of the truth of the Gospel. Those who ignored his testimony, stage by stage, were gradually blinded. In effect the preaching, together with their rebellious and hardened hearts blinded them, so the language attributes the blinding process to the preaching. Similarly Jesus is the true light and his testimony is simple and clear to all that have a humble and pure heart, but others are blinded. Others could explain and express this process better.

Kind regards
Trevor

[Alan Swallows Waiting for Email Confirmation]

Re: Greetings from Australia

I use and prefer the KJV Bible. I have used the same Oxford WM KJV for the last 50 years and still take it to our meetings. At my desk I read in the morning from an Interlinear RV/KJV and although I am not happy with many aspects of the NT portion of the RV, I appreciate some of the differences in the OT portion. I enjoy the RV distinction between prose and poetry. Even simple words like “tell” and “abroad” found in the KJV have shifted in meaning over the years. One of our Senior Expositors who studied the Book of Job over many years stated that the RV was a better translation of the Book of Job.

The Christian's choice of Bible translation doesn't depend on what makes you "not happy." The RV is based on different texts than the KJV. Textual criticism is another slippery slope. Who are we to question what should be in God's word? It's better simply to accept that the translators of the KJV got it 100% right 400 years ago based on the limited manuscripts available to them back then.

I used the terms "spiritual environment" and "law environment" based upon what I consider is the flow of thought from Romans 7 and 8, and a careful reading of these two chapters could clarify what I was trying to say. You may have a different perception of the flow of thought from Romans 7 to Romans 8.

What about the flow from Romans 8 to Romans 9, which is about God's sovereignty, i.e. how God hates some babies before they're born (Romans 9:13) and hardens people's hearts (Romans 9:18)?

Which brings us back to the topic of Isaiah 6.

I believe that this is one of the great enigmas or paradoxes of the Bible. Isaiah did not proceed to confuse, but together with the prophecies concerning Messiah, and the life and example of Hezekiah, he revealed the light of the truth of the Gospel. Those who ignored his testimony, stage by stage, were gradually blinded. In effect the preaching, together with their rebellious and hardened hearts blinded them, so the language attributes the blinding process to the preaching. Similarly Jesus is the true light and his testimony is simple and clear to all that have a humble and pure heart, but others are blinded. Others could explain and express this process better.

Preaching only caused some of the blindness.

Mark 4:11-12: 11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables: 12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.

Parables are by nature obscure, they have a hidden meaning. Jesus only revealed the meaning of His parables to His disciples (Mark 4:13-20). Jesus Himself says He preached in parables so that "them that are without" wouldn't understand. Read the verses above. They are very clear.

The Bible is also clear that God also caused some of the blindness.

John 12:40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

As I mentioned before, "He" is "God."

[Basilissa]

Re: Greetings from Australia

Parables are by nature obscure, they have a hidden meaning. Jesus only revealed the meaning of His parables to His disciples (Mark 4:13-20). Jesus Himself says He preached in parables so that "them that are without" wouldn't understand. Read the verses above. They are very clear.

Exactly. God didn't create Hell for it to remain empty. God created eternal reward and eternal punishment; and He set up the rules in such a way, that most people will receive eternal punishment and very few will receive eternal reward.

[Ezekiel Bathfire]

Re: Greetings from Austria

Because the Bible in a year comments on Isaiah 6 expressed similar sentiments to what you have now stated, that God arbitrarily blinds and then punishes certain individuals. This is not the God I worship.

Ex:7:8: And the LORD spake unto Moses and unto Aaron, saying,
Ex:7:9: When Pharaoh shall speak unto you, saying, Shew a miracle for you: then thou shalt say unto Aaron, Take thy rod, and cast it before Pharaoh, and it shall become a serpent
...
Ex:7:12: For they cast down every man his rod, and they became serpents: but Aaron's rod swallowed up their rods.
Ex:7:13: And he hardened Pharaoh's heart, that he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had said.
Ex:7:14: And the LORD said unto Moses, Pharaoh's heart is hardened, he refuseth to let the people go.

Just remind us what happened next... and in your explanation, you might mention why you do not believe in God The Father.

[TrevorL]

Re: Greetings from Australia

Greetings again Alan and Greetings Ezekiel Bathfire,

The Christian's choice of Bible translation doesn't depend on what makes you "not happy." The RV is based on different texts than the KJV. Textual criticism is another slippery slope.

Is this forum exclusively for KJV only adherents? I dislike the NT RV for the same reason, my respect for the KJV MSS used, rather than those of the RV. The OT portion of the RV is not based on different texts

Who are we to question what should be in God's word? It's better simply to accept that the translators of the KJV got it 100% right 400 years ago based on the limited manuscripts available to them back then.

I suggest that it is simplistic to claim that the KJV 1611 is God’s word in an absolute sense. God’s word is the original word spoken and/or written by the prophets, Jesus and the apostles. The KJV has its limitations. Do you use the 1611 version or the later KJV amended versions of 1616, or 1638, or 1762? Do you use reference books to check some of the words such as “tell” and “abroad”?

What is your opinion of Tyndale’s translation of Exodus 3:14 in the future tense? What is your understanding of the word “churches” in the KJV rendition of Acts 19:37? What churches existed in Ephesus at that time? Do you prefer the translation “congregation” used by Tyndale in the following, or the KJV “church”?
Revelation 2:1 (Tyndale): Unto the messenger of the congregacion of Ephesus wryte: These thynges sayth he that holdeth the vii. starres in his right honde and walketh in the myddes of the vii. golden candlestyckes.

I endorse some of the comments of Dr. Ginsburg, a principal Hebraist on the panel for the OT portion of the RV.

“With regard to the Revised Version of thirty years ago, it is important to distinguish between the Old and the New Testaments, which were prepared by a different set of translators. As regards the Old Testament, with which alone I had to deal, the most scrupulous care was taken not to alter anything unnecessarily. Respect for the text on which the mind of the nation had been nurtured for so many generations was our guiding principle. It was otherwise with the New Testament, and it is that part of the work which alone in my opinion justifies the strictures of those who say that unnecessary alterations of a trifling character were introduced.

“The English Bible is undoubtedly the most important work that has ever issued from the press in this country. Its influence on men’s minds and on our literature has been tremendous. At the same time it is quite possible to exaggerate the merits of King James’s translators. Undoubtedly they were scholars. The Hebrew language was well understood by those who made a special study of it in the seventeenth century. The basis of their text was the great Hebrew Bible, which was edited by Jacob ben Chajin, and published in 1524–25 by Bomberg, a German savant who established a printing press in Venice. That is also the foundation of all subsequent Hebrew editions, including my own.

“With regard to the translators of the Authorised Version, of course they had not the same materials that are within reach of the modern editors, and, moreover, their standard of accuracy was not so high as is that of scholars of the present day, for you must remember that in the seventeenth century the science of philology could not be said to exist.

“The fact is that while they undoubtedly went to the original Hebrew, as I have said, they really corrected earlier English versions. The majestic English of the Authorised Version is really that of earlier workers in the same field. We really owe our English Bible in all its essentials to Tyndale and Coverdale. Tyndale’s Bible, as completed by Matthew, appeared more than 70 years before King James’s version. Another version which was extremely popular, and which was in all important respects very similar to the Authorised Version, was published in 1560 by English refugees in Geneva, and is therefore called the Geneva Bible. Still, after making all allowances, the Authorised Version is undoubtedly one of the most interesting books in the world.”

What about the flow from Romans 8 to Romans 9, which is about God's sovereignty, i.e. how God hates some babies before they're born (Romans 9:13) and hardens people's hearts (Romans 9:18)?
Which brings us back to the topic of Isaiah 6.
Preaching only caused some of the blindness.

Is this forum mainly some form of extreme Calvinism?

Parables are by nature obscure, they have a hidden meaning. Jesus only revealed the meaning of His parables to His disciples (Mark 4:13-20). Jesus Himself says He preached in parables so that "them that are without" wouldn't understand. Read the verses above. They are very clear.

The meaning of the Parable of the Sower is now clearly revealed in the gospels if we have humble hearts to understand.

Ex:7:13: And he hardened Pharaoh's heart, that he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had said.
Ex:7:14: And the LORD said unto Moses, Pharaoh's heart is hardened, he refuseth to let the people go.

Just remind us what happened next... and in your explanation, you might mention why you do not believe in God The Father.

I believe in God the Father, and I also believe that the hardening of Pharaoh’s heart was a gradual process, not a direct infusion.

Kind regards
Trevor

2 Peter 1:20-21 (NKJV): 20 knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation (mg or origin), 21 for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.

[I Man Rastafari]

Re: Greetings from Austria

Greetings again Trevor. It is your friend Trevor from Jamaica. The King James Bible is the very word of Jah without any changes. Other versions have subtle changes and are not suitable. This King James Version was first ordered by King James of Scotland and England who was a Black man. You may not believe that King James was a Black man but it is on YouTube so you know it must be true. Also these Caucasians are not Calvinists. They are Baptists.

[Pastor Ezekiel]

Re: Greetings from Austria

By the way, you might be interested in taking a look at my Sermon on how one can tell which is the one TRUE Word of God. You will find it HERE.

Hello Bruce;

Please have the courtesy to read the sermon that I left you the link for above. You sound like a very confused person, and I'd like to help set you straight.

YIC,

--Pastor Ezekiel

[Alan Swallows Waiting for Email Confirmation]

Re: Greetings from Austria

Is this forum exclusively for KJV only adherents?

In the thread **"Noobs" please read this before posting.** SERIOUSLY! you'll find this post:

We also believe that the King James Bible is the only accurate English translation of God's Word. It is the only English language Bible based on the Textus Receptus. All others are based on the Alexandrian Manuscripts and the Latin Vulgate.

Do you use the 1611 version or the later KJV amended versions of 1616, or 1638, or 1762? Do you use reference books to check some of the words such as “tell” and “abroad”?

I use the 1611 KJV, and no I don't use reference books.

God’s word is the original word spoken and/or written by the prophets, Jesus and the apostles. The KJV has its limitations.

This site has some helpful answers to some common questions about the KJV such as:

• Shouldn't we value the original autographs above any mere translation?
• Was King James a homosexual?
• Aren't archaic words in the KJV in need of updating?
• Haven't there been several revisions of the KJV?
• Aren't modern translations based on better manuscripts?
• If we have a perfect Bible in English, don't we need one in every other language?
• Should the italicized words in the KJV be removed?
• Aren't there some great men who use other versions?
• Where was the Bible before 1611?
• Can someone get saved if you are using something other than the KJV?
• When someone is led to Christ by someone using a particular version, doesn't that mean that version is God's word?
• Aren't KJV believers just mean-spirited name-callers?
• Don't King James Bible believers worship the KJV? Didn't God destroy the originals because He didn't want these people to venerate them?
• Is it "heresy" to believe that the King James Bible is perfect?
• Do Christians and preachers who use other bibles hate God?
• Was the KJV inspired or preserved?
• Can a translation be inspired?
• Did the KJV translators claim divine inspiration?
• A translation can't be as good as the originals, can it?
• Isn't the Holy Spirit incorrectly called "it" in Romans 8:26?
• Didn't the King James Bible when first printed contain the Apocrypha?
• Is the NKJV an improvement of the KJV?
• Haven't manuscripts been found since the KJV was translated in 1611?
• Isn't the devil behind all the confusion and fighting over Bible versions?
• What about the "nuggets" only found in "the Greek," like agape vs phileo love?
• Didn't the Textus Receptus appear after 1611?
• Should we make an issue of Bible translations?
• Shouldn't we emphasize love for Jesus Christ rather than squabbling over Bible translations?
• Wasn't Erasmus a bootlicking papist?
• What if there really are errors in the KJV?
• Doesn't Ahazia's age in 2nd Kings 8:26 and 2nd Chronicles 22:2 prove that there is an error in the KJV?

What is your opinion of Tyndale’s translation of Exodus 3:14 in the future tense? What is your understanding of the word “churches” in the KJV rendition of Acts 19:37? What churches existed in Ephesus at that time? Do you prefer the translation “congregation” used by Tyndale in the following, or the KJV “church”?
Revelation 2:1 (Tyndale): Unto the messenger of the congregacion of Ephesus wryte: These thynges sayth he that holdeth the vii. starres in his right honde and walketh in the myddes of the vii. golden candlestyckes.

I don't trust the Tyndale. It's an outdated and inaccurate version.

Is this forum mainly some form of extreme Calvinism?

I can't say what the official position of the Landover Baptist Church is as I am also new. I'm not endorsing a particular doctrine, I'm only endorsing the Bible. However, even your beloved Romans 8 speaks of predestination.

Romans 8:28-30: 28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. 29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

I guess you could say these verses are the turning point of chapter 8 and then it flows into Romans 9, which contains many gems.

Romans 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
Romans 9:7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
Romans 9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
Romans 9:9 For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sarah shall have a son.
Romans 9:10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
Romans 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth
Romans 9:12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
Romans 9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
Romans 9:14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
Romans 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
Romans 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
Romans 9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
Romans 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
Romans 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
Romans 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Romans 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
Romans 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
Romans 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
Romans 9:24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

You're the one who brought up Isaiah 6 and Romans 8 and then you get upset when people point out what they actually say.

I also believe that the hardening of Pharaoh’s heart was a gradual process, not a direct infusion.

I suppose it would be too much to hope you have a Scriptural basis for this, given that God hardened Pharaoh's heart right from Moses' first miracle, which brother Bathfire mentioned.

[Alan Swallows Waiting for Email Confirmation]

Re: Greetings from Austria

Greetings again Trevor. It is your friend Trevor from Jamaica. The King James Bible is the very word of Jah without any changes. Other versions have subtle changes and are not suitable. This King James Version was first ordered by King James of Scotland and England who was a Black man. You may not believe that King James was a Black man but it is on YouTube so you know it must be true. Also these Caucasians are not Calvinists. They are Baptists.

I heard a rumor you guys add to God's pure word with your "Holy Piby."

Revelation 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

[Ezekiel Bathfire]

Re: Greetings from Australia

I believe in God the Father, and I also believe that the hardening of Pharaoh’s heart was a gradual process, not a direct infusion.

Kind regards
Trevor

2 Peter 1:20-21 (NKJV): 20 knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation (mg or origin), 21 for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.

That's really convenient that you believe that, isn't it? Why, it is almost as if you knew The Mind of God... In fact, it is almost as if you have created your own god - who is very similar to you and has beliefs the same as yours... and are worshiping him.

The Exodus passage speaks of what God has done - He does things instantly. The 2 Peter passage speaks of what men should not do.

2 Peter is not very convenient for people like you who worship a god made in their own image, is it?

The essence of being a Christian is to follow the teaching. If God hardened Pharaoh's heart one second before he started to thnk... that is good enough for me.

Ex:7:13: And he hardened Pharaoh's heart, that he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had said.

It doesn't seem to any reasonable person that God did this over the years. God did it for one particular reason: a reason that had not occurred before.

I now know that you have created your own god and worship yourself.

My friend, you are damned.