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-   -   Get rid of nature before it kills us! (https://www.landoverbaptist.net/showthread.php?t=26104)

Jeb Stuart Thurmond 07-22-2009 11:21 PM

Get rid of nature before it kills us!
 
http://growthunlimited.blogspot.com/
Our Earth can support a population of 100 billion people with higher material living standards than the developed countries have now, and be a much better place to live in for all. Some of you may find this an outrageous statement. However, bear with me, I will presently in the GrowthUnlimited blog document the reasoning behind the statement.

Area is of course an important limiting factor for population density and wellbeing. But considering that the total area of the Earth is 510 million sq.km and that in a 100 G world 99,9% of all people would most likely be living in cities with a average population density of 2.000-10.000 persons / sq.km, we would need about 10-50 million sq.km, which is from 2-10 % of the total Earth area, for city areas, which would leave ample space for food production, pristine nature and recreation (golf courses, cultural landscapes). Yes, I am consciously including sea areas too, as we already now are seeing artificial islands being built....

The world continues to be a better and better place for human beings. It may happen in fits and starts, and it may not occur at the same time all over the world. However, the long-term trends are obvious: The human population is increasing and at the same time we are living longer, getter richer and being better educated. The world economic growth is now at its highest (about 4%) since the heady 1950’is and the decade we are in now: The Amazing Zeroes, will probably break all human records on enriching people and getting people out of poverty...

There are sufficient energy and resources available for a much higher human population (10-100 billion people) on Earth living affluent lives, the only real physical constraint being area. If we look to space there are no real limits to growth on a universal timescale. The neo-malthusians are plainly wrong and their views harmful to building an affluent world for all people...

Of course we do not need nature. A detached observer must take the Hobbesian view, that undisturbed nature only allows for human lives to be solitary, poor, nasty, brutish and short. A human existence in material and intellectual affluence demands, that man fills the earth, subdues it and dominates all living things to secure a continuous increase in living standards and longevity...

Because of mankind's steadily increasing ability to control nature we are now 6 billion going towards a equilibrium state of 10 billion, which pending the right political actions all can obtain livings standards and life expectancies, which our forefathers could not even dream about...

Three Good Reasons to Get Rid of Nature...

...Nature has to be managed and controlled to allow human beings to survive and thrive...In the geological time scale, nature left to its own devices will surely kill most or maybe all human beings, if we don’t allow the development of necessary precautions...

Does Nature Have a Future?

Even more than 30 years after the publication of "Limits to Growth" and after numerous clear falsifications of its statements we still see a strong influence of the doomsayers in their call for "control and regulation" of new technology and their lobbying for draconian measures on the global warming issue.

...A major global trend now is the use of advanced technology for decoupling our production activities particularly in food production from land use and environmental impact....

An unsentimental view on nature, as something which human beings has as well a duty as a right to manage and control and even get rid of, is the best guarantee for a good future for our planet.
As you see, the only "limits to growth" is land area, and to prove it I'm sure the author will be "going Galt" in Antartica, or maybe that desert in South America that has never had rain in recorded history. Things like that have no effect on growth - only a lack of faith can do that.

Ezekiel Bathfire 07-22-2009 11:52 PM

Re: Get rid of nature before it kills us!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeb Thurmond (Post 366773)
http://growthunlimited.blogspot.com/
Our Earth can support a population of 100 billion people [...]

An unsentimental view on nature, as something which human beings has as well a duty as a right to manage and control and even get rid of, is the best guarantee for a good future for our planet.
As you see, the only "limits to growth" is land area, and to prove it I'm sure the author will be "going Galt" in Antartica, or maybe that desert in South America that has never had rain in recorded history. Things like that have no effect on growth - only a lack of faith can do that.

I am assuming lesser humans will live in the deserts and above the tree-line in the mountains thus not taking up valuable agricultural space.

The densities of population predicted are a little greater than I would like but, as I will be in Landover, I cannot see it being particularly inconvenient for me.

Jeb Stuart Thurmond 07-23-2009 11:46 AM

Re: Get rid of nature before it kills us!
 
That's the spirit. Technology will save us, because of technology nobody will starve. After all, we have technology now, and nobody (worth careing about) is starving. We also had technology in the past and nobody (worth caring about) starved then.

One thing people ask is how an Earth with 100,000,000,000 people will still be able to eat meat. Problem solved: so that we don't have to waste good meat on cat-food, we've invented vegetarian cats:

http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c2...fs/corncat.gif

The only thing holding us back is the doomsaying scientists. Technology will really take off, once we get rid of all the scientists.

Bobby-Joe 07-23-2009 03:48 PM

Re: Get rid of nature before it kills us!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeb Thurmond (Post 366966)
That's the spirit. Technology will save us, because of technology nobody will starve. After all, we have technology now, and nobody (worth careing about) is starving. We also had technology in the past and nobody (worth caring about) starved then.

One thing people ask is how an Earth with 100,000,000,000 people will still be able to eat meat. Problem solved: so that we don't have to waste good meat on cat-food, we've invented vegetarian cats:

http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c2...fs/corncat.gif

The only thing holding us back is the doomsaying scientists. Technology will really take off, once we get rid of all the scientists.

It's government that is the problem; how do we know it never rains in deserts or no crops grow above the tree line? Government officials tell us, that is how. We get rid of the red tape spewing bureaucrats and people will start bringing water to the desert and growing their crops on mountain tops.

Pastor Isaac Peters 07-23-2009 04:07 PM

Re: Get rid of nature before it kills us!
 
I do have one concern. This plan calls for a high population density. The two most densely populated major cities in present-day America are JYC and Sin Francrisco, and we must take steps to ensure that the world does not end up like either of those places.

WilliamJenningsBryan 07-23-2009 10:23 PM

Re: Get rid of nature before it kills us!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Pastor Isaac Peters (Post 367013)
I do have one concern. This plan calls for a high population density. The two most densely populated major cities in present-day America are JYC and Sin Francrisco, and we must take steps to ensure that the world does not end up like either of those places.


I must echo your concerns Pastor Peters. I have long followed the link between high population densities and homerism. While these studies can be suspect because they were conducted by "scientists" on rats (with apologies to Sister SUV), they do raise a red flag for these questionable proposals.

Quote:

Calhoun (1962a) was perhaps the seminal work suggesting a link between crowding and social pathology. He populated a room subdivided into four contiguous pens with rats and provided them with unlimited food and water; after a year, their density was high and he reported infanticide, cannibalism, homosexuality, and the formation of a "behavioral sink": the majority of the rats would congregate to feed within a small subsection of the room, increasing their real density far above that imposed by the distribution of food or size of the enclosure, and seemingly exacerbating the social pressure of numbers. The analogy with humans apparently voluntarily flocking to decaying inner cities despite high crime rates and lower quality of life compared to rural areas was compelling and the paper widely cited. Calhoun himself promoted the analogy in papers such as "Plight of the Ik and Kaiadilt is seen as a chilling possible end for Man" (1972).

http://weber.ucsd.edu/~jmoore/public...fanticide.html


JennyD 07-24-2009 06:50 AM

Re: Get rid of nature before it kills us!
 
Jeb, this article you've posted is truly bizarre. Where do you find this twaddle?

Seriously, what is wrong with this author?




Why in the world would all these people need to live on land? Why can't we have 300 billion people, most of whom live on vast man-made islands, and grow food in "vertical farms"?

Ocean rises? SO WHAT!

More powerful storms? Great! More electricity from wave power!

The deserts could be used as landfills, as could all the exhausted coal mines. Just cram it in!

Meek and Humble 07-24-2009 08:01 PM

Re: Get rid of nature before it kills us!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by CaptainCookie (Post 367660)
Bad reasons to get rid of nature
It makes oxygen.
We need oxygen to breathe
Oh wait.
God will magically make us able to live on magic and fairy dust.

Oxygen can be produced synthetically in a laboratory, stupid :thumbdown:

Jeb Stuart Thurmond 07-28-2009 11:49 PM

Re: Get rid of nature before it kills us!
 
There's a new book out: "The Virtue of Waste"

It proves 3 points:

First, the energy supply that can be found on the Earth is infinite, we shouldn't worry about the loss of energy supplies. See: economics problems can be solved by physicists. I hope their next book will use the inner workings of quarks to figure out a way to turn a profit on all those pets.com shares I still have.

Secondly, human demand for energy increases and never decreases. Creating energy efficiency increases demand for more energy. Since efficiency makes no difference, we might was well burn all the oil in the world just to look at the pretty flames - actually doing something with it only makes people more needy for it.

Thirdly, gas prices don't matter. Al least for people that matter. One of my favorite sounds is someone saying "if you have to ask how much it costs, you can't afford it".

On page 136 the authors have a graph showing that the United States, has the highest per capita energy consumption while lesser nations are less wealthy and use less energy. The authors conclude, "The more energy a nation uses, the richer it gets." Brilliant - the authors have just solved 3rd world poverty. Clearly the best way to end global hunger is to have the brown people get rid of their bikes and donkeys, and insist that they buy SUVs and Sports cars, and plane tickets for their pets.

They also point out that SUVs are not wasteful since more powerful engines go faster. If the environmentalists really cared about saving gas, they would lobby to make Formula One cars street-legal.

Another great part is the "great energy heresies":

1)"The cost of energy as we use it has less and less to do with the cost of fuel. Increasingly it depends instead on the cost of the hardware we use to refine and process the fuel."

You see, because the remaining oil is low quality mud found only in deep, hard to access puddles it costs more in equipment to get it - however the actual oil is the same. That means there's nothing to worry about.

2)"'Waste' is virtuous. We use up most of our energy refining energy itself, and dumping waste energy in the process."

Ever seen bums warming themselves at a vent beside a skyscraper? The Trump Tower is a CHARITY, it should be tax-free.

3)"The more efficient our technology, the more energy we consume."

I used to have a hippie niebour who stopped driving and started biking instead. True, his bike doesn't burn much gas, but then I bought an SUV which does. So his buying a bike only caused us to burn more gas, not less.

4)"The competitive advantage in manufacturing is now swinging decisively back toward the United States."

Have you ever heard of China manufacturing a financial-derivative-deal as good as the ones Wall St manufactures?

5)"Human demand for energy is insatiable."

6)"The raw fuels are not running out. The faster we extract and burn, the faster we find still more. . . . Energy supplies are infinite."

7)"America's relentless pursuit of high-grade energy does not add chaos to the global environment, it restores order."

Indeed, I've never seen a better example of what Law And Order are all about than Abu Graib.

Jeb Stuart Thurmond 08-01-2009 03:40 AM

Re: Get rid of nature before it kills us!
 
Off Topic chatter has been moved HERE. Can we please at least TRY to get this debate back on topic? Specifically, the topic of how technology will save us.

Techno-utopians have always been right. This blog shows you the techno-utopian's track record of predicting, with almost perfect timing, the arrival of technologies that mean there will never be famine or disease:

http://paleo-future.blogspot.com/

In 2020 when the groundwater is used up and everything west of the Mississippi reverts to desert, our one-pill meals will be manufactured by genetically modified superchimps in orbiting factories. The pill meals will be distributed to our moon-colonies and asteroid mines by radio-controlled antigravity rockets. As for us backward Earthlings will get our pill meals delivered to our mile-high skyscraper homes via flying car and jetpack delivery. Our robot maids, arriving via moving sidewalk, will set the table, put some parsley on the pills, light the candles, and even spank the kids if they swallow their dessert-pill first.

Jeb Stuart Thurmond 08-01-2009 11:14 PM

Re: Get rid of nature before it kills us!
 
This article has the right attitude towards nature: either find a way to make yourself useful, or go extinct!
...the day will come when the wild creatures of the earth will have to pay their way or become as extinct as many forms of animal life have in the dim distances of the past.

Unless an animal can contribute something definite to human life - food to be eaten, clothes to be worn, labor to lighten the burden of man - then his doom is sealed and the last of his tribe will one day pass out of the picture...

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_sGYULzoQCg...paleo-futu.jpg

Sally Paulson 08-02-2009 03:27 AM

Re: Get rid of nature before it kills us!
 
SPACESHIP JESUS IS REAL! HE WILL SAVE US!

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_sGYULzoQCg...aleofuture.jpg

Satan Is THAT bad 08-03-2009 04:03 PM

Re: Get rid of nature before it kills us!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Sally Paulson (Post 373613)
SPACESHIP JESUS IS REAL! HE WILL SAVE US!

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_sGYULzoQCg...aleofuture.jpg

It's not a UFO.. it's JEW-FO.

Everytime I see a plant growing I yank it out. Nature must perish.

Bobby-Joe 08-03-2009 04:07 PM

Re: Get rid of nature before it kills us!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Satan Is THAT bad (Post 374609)
It's not a UFO.. it's JEW-FO.

Everytime I see a plant growing I yank it out. Nature must perish.

Jeb is leading the charge on this one, his had the yard of his Freehold home paved over with cement and put in that plastic AstroTurf. Replaced the trees with Christian themed sculptures. The statue of GW Bush in his Mission Accomplished Gulf War victor's flight suite is rather nice.

James Hutchins 08-03-2009 04:24 PM

Re: Get rid of nature before it kills us!
 
I am currently negotiating with a few chemical companies to work out a deal to flush the demon water from my private lake and fill it with Godly Lucite®. It would always be clear, never get weeds, no more ducks or other animals making it ripple. Plus, I could walk on it, how cool would that be!

Professor Majestic 08-03-2009 06:09 PM

Re: Get rid of nature before it kills us!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeb Thurmond (Post 372731)
Off Topic chatter has been moved HERE. Can we please at least TRY to get this debate back on topic? Specifically, the topic of how technology will save us.

Techno-utopians have always been right. This blog shows you the techno-utopian's track record of predicting, with almost perfect timing, the arrival of technologies that mean there will never be famine or disease:

http://paleo-future.blogspot.com/

In 2020 when the groundwater is used up and everything west of the Mississippi reverts to desert, our one-pill meals will be manufactured by genetically modified superchimps in orbiting factories. The pill meals will be distributed to our moon-colonies and asteroid mines by radio-controlled antigravity rockets. As for us backward Earthlings will get our pill meals delivered to our mile-high skyscraper homes via flying car and jetpack delivery. Our robot maids, arriving via moving sidewalk, will set the table, put some parsley on the pills, light the candles, and even spank the kids if they swallow their dessert-pill first.

Jeb, you yorself said that science was evil and not to be trusted in "A Guide to The Evolutionist Conspiracy", that genetic engineering was evil and satanic(chimps), and that going to the moon (much less the asteroid belt) was impossible. This is the most blatant crossing of one's own logic I have ever seen!

Meek and Humble 08-04-2009 12:23 AM

Re: Get rid of nature before it kills us!
 
What, how did he cross his logic?

Mapper 08-04-2009 12:32 AM

Re: Get rid of nature before it kills us!
 
so what your saying is,we need to kill off the enviroment,make billions of animal and plant life go extinct just to make space? you do know that if a mass geneocide like this (yes it is geneocide, check a good dictionary *bible does not count*) was attempted, they would be stopped by the intellegent people of the world? Why do you think that the technology we are using know to save the planet is being implemented in that way?

Meek and Humble 08-04-2009 01:01 AM

Re: Get rid of nature before it kills us!
 
So you want the human race to go extinct just to save some bushes, bugs, and wild animals that would kill you if they got the chance. Not very good thinking at all.

Pastor Isaac Peters 08-04-2009 12:50 PM

Re: Get rid of nature before it kills us!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeb Thurmond (Post 373517)
This article has the right attitude towards nature: either find a way to make yourself useful, or go extinct!
...the day will come when the wild creatures of the earth will have to pay their way or become as extinct as many forms of animal life have in the dim distances of the past.

Unless an animal can contribute something definite to human life - food to be eaten, clothes to be worn, labor to lighten the burden of man - then his doom is sealed and the last of his tribe will one day pass out of the picture...

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_sGYULzoQCg...paleo-futu.jpg

Indeed. God made the animals to be helps meet for us, not the other way around:

Gen. 2:18-20: And the LORD God said, [It is] not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him. And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought [them] unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that [was] the name thereof. And Adam gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the air, and to every beast of the field; but for Adam there was not found an help meet for him.

One may wonder why God did not strike them all dead on the spot, given that they had failed the purpose for which the Almighty had intelligently designed them, but who are we to question His mercy?


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