[Ezekiel Bathfire]

Re: Evolution Is A Fact

FortyTwo hit the nail on the head. Being brought up with the "truth" has seriously hindered their ability to accept anything that isn't in the KJV bible.[...]

Even a Godless atheist like you should see the beautiful simplicity of God's Creation.

Then there's that man Nietsche (or however he spells his name) above, who is a trenchant apologist for so-called scientists, and who suggests that gravity is caused by penny arcades. Is that likely?

Occam's Razor is the answer! God did it. How much simpler can you get?

[Hank]

Re: Evolution Is A Fact

Occam's Razor is the answer! God did it. How much simpler can you get?

To say evolution is true is like saying the noter dame cathedral just bursted out of thin air from dust collectin over time. But how do you account for the design? The intelligence?

The stupidity of so called "scientists" amazes me

[Jim Lovecraft]

Re: Evolution Is A Fact

Please listen all non believers, the universe is far too infinite and complex for us to understand, but with time we will learn and understand more. Do not let your prejudices about religion build walls around your minds. We have a long way to go in understanding the cosmos, let's not close our world on religion and accept that there are possibilities that we cannot disprove.

[Aristotle]

Re: Evolution Is A Fact

Just like Gravity, Evolution is a fact. It happens, we can see it happening, it isn't going to stop happening.

You might as well accept reality.

No, No! Evolution is a conspiracy of evilotionists. Science has gone down hill since they accepted the atheist thinking of Newton. Every good Christian knows that the force of YHWH is required to keep things moving, just like the good Christian Aristotle said.

[True Disciple]

Re: Evolution Is A Fact

A bit like one of those coin vortex devices, where there is a central hole and a downward sloping conical gradient leading towards it. As a coin is rolled along the gradient, it loses speed and is gradually pulled closer into the hole, until it falls in.

But why does the coin fall in? According to godless atheists, it falls in because of gravity, the very concept you are trying to prove! Circular reasoning, my friend. Coins fall because God pushes them down by Intelligent Falling (IF). No spacetime-deformation necessary.

What causes space time to bend, on the other hand, is not perfectly understood. Some would suggest a particle called the gravitron is responsible, others, mostly those in theoretical physics, describe it as being an effect of strings. Neither are fully supported, through a string theory-based model would account for it.

In short, you don't have the faintest idea how your own gravitationist theories are supposed to work, and therefore invent new particles and "strings" to salvage your failing worldview.

Accept the truth of Christ, my friend.

[ClarificatiOnDarwin]

Dear friend:

Would you like to back up your assertions with Scripture? As for accepting reality, we accept God's Reality.

Pastor Peters....scripture is unable to provide support for evolution because it has no mention of it, because it is not a book of science. To ask someone to provide evidence from the very thing someone is criticizing is a poor plan of attack from your argument. You are assuming that the bible is true, which is what is under question, and you simply can't do that.

Evolution is just a theory. Where did you go to school??

Evolution is actually a fact. It's a common misconception that evolution is still a theory. I'll try to explain. The modern Theory of Evolution has been observed and proved many times since the times of Charles Darwin. Meaning it has left the 'hypothesis' realm to become an established theory, that is to say: a fact. Just to cite a few examples of evolution in action: bacteria antibiotic resistance, the peppered moth and the avian influenza. Every other observation, from the fossil record to molecular genetics to wildlife observations, have all fit soundly with evolution predictions.

What's more, evolution is used by humankind for such things like artificial selection, genetic engineering, vaccine production and computer science (evolutionary and genetic algorithms). If evolution wasn't a fact, these applications of it would have failed.

Also, let me leave you with this quote: "Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge: it is those who know little, and not those who know much, who so positively assert that this or that problem will never be solved by science." - Charles Darwin

I hope this helps clear things up. Evolution occurred. There is a plethora ( a lot) of evidence. This isn't to say that God didn't create our earth and universe through the process of Darwinian evolution, it just says that the tale of Genesis is bogus. We don't know what started it all, but we know that after it got started (be it God, the Big Bang, or whatever) evolution did the rest. There is nothing in the universe so far that cannot be explained by evolution: small, successive changes over a long, long period of time.

Rev Osborne, you cannot quote the bible to provide evidence for it self, that is like saying "I am right because I said so." Please if you are going to engage the forum, use appropriate reasoning and logic skills.

[Pastor Ezekiel]

Re: Evolution Is A Fact

[ClarificatiOnDarwin]

Re: Evolution Is A Fact

A stone will fall, thats a fact. Unless God Wills it not to fall then it won't. Thats also a fact.

Now for your stupid argument of comparing gravity with evolution saying they are both "facts" let me ask you this: When defining gravity are we speculating about something that we claim happened over millions of years (when no one was there to see it) or are we observing a stone fall with our own eyes? What sceintist in the world has EVER seen a fish grow legs and lungs and turn into a warm blooded lizard? What sceintist has EVER seen an ape give birth to a human child? None! No one has! Its all speculation devised by the devil to stop people from coming to know Jesus.

If evolution was true then cats would have grown tin openers on their hands by now.

Friend, are you going to fall for this evil scheme of satan or will you accept Christ as your Lord and Saviour?

Actually we have tons of evidence of evolution. There are a multitude of scientific studies that show that evolution is in fact...a fact I personally think God, works through evolution, it's a profoundly beautiful way to create life. Selective breeding is just one example that we can see today with our very own eyes! Evolution and God don't have to contradict one another. A literal interpretation of the bible does however and that will take some figuring out. Other examples of the FACT of evolution that we can see on an everyday smaller scale are : other examples include
MRSA
warfarin resistance in rats
resistance in malaria parasite
nit resistance to shampoos
breeding ages in cod

I hope this helps clear up the ignorance (not to be insulting, ignorance means you just haven't been introduced to the material, it does not mean stupid)

[Meek and Humble]

Re: Evolution Is A Fact

Actually we have tons of evidence of evolution. There are a multitude of scientific studies that show that evolution is in fact...a fact I personally think God, works through evolution, it's a profoundly beautiful way to create life. Selective breeding is just one example that we can see today with our very own eyes! Evolution and God don't have to contradict one another. A literal interpretation of the bible does however and that will take some figuring out. Other examples of the FACT of evolution that we can see on an everyday smaller scale are : other examples include
MRSA
warfarin resistance in rats
resistance in malaria parasite
nit resistance to shampoos
breeding ages in cod

I hope this helps clear up the ignorance (not to be insulting, ignorance means you just haven't been introduced to the material, it does not mean stupid)

Wrong, there is NO evidence evolution is real, quit lying!!!

http://emporium.turnpike.net/C/cs/top.htm

And the Bible and evolution cannot agree:

http://www.answersingenesis.org/creation/v3/i1/evolution.asp

[ClarificatiOnDarwin]

Re: Evolution Is A Fact

Good point Pastor. But the fact of evolution says that primates and humans evolved from a shared ancestor not humans from primates. That is a common misconception. Just because we an incredibly similar genetic system with chimpanzees and bonobos does not mean we are doomed to act like them. I believe in free will and I believe you do too, right? If understanding how evolution works and the knowledge of the shared ancestry ruptures your moral and ethical foundation, then I would say that they could not have been very strong in the first place. Our biology does not have to dictate our actions (all the time). I've seen christians act like "monkeys" just as much as atheists and buddhists, children and adults.

[ClarificatiOnDarwin]

Re: Evolution Is A Fact

Wrong, there is NO evidence evolution is real, quit lying!!!

http://emporium.turnpike.net/C/cs/top.htm

And the Bible and evolution cannot agree:

http://www.answersingenesis.org/crea.../evolution.asp

Some excellent points. I would first talk about the paragraph on the link you sent me about origin of life. I will say that it is entirely possible that God created the universe, I believe he did, but after that, he set evolution in motion to do the rest. No one knows how the first replicating life form came to be.

The 2nd point I would address is the issue with irreducible complexity. this is a common misunderstanding of design and a mouse trap is a poor example because it is not a living organism. I like the example of the human eye myself. People will often say that a human eye is so complex that if any part was missing or underdeveloped it would not work. Everything is to be in place in order for it to function. For modern species eyes, yes. You're right. But if we think of it in evolutionary terms, 1/2 of an eye is better than no eye when you're thinking in terms of survival of the fittest. 20% visability is better than 19% visability when faced with a predator, right? Even if it's a slight advantage. It's those sligt advantages over millenia that add up into what we have today. Small, successive changes over many, many years is how evolution works.

Also, while I'm here. Regarding the fossil record of course there are some gaps. They are fossils, they are subject to millenia of erosion, destruction, and simply not being found because they're hidden from us. Just having a couple examples is more than enough to prove evolution. We're lucky to have the ones we do. And there are many, many examples of 'transitional' fossils. Archaeoptrix is a common example of a kind of hybrid, reptile bird. The Thrinaxodon is another example of a "mammal like reptile" I hope this clarifies the misunderstanding of what information is available.

[Meek and Humble]

Re: Evolution Is A Fact

Good point Pastor. But the fact of evolution says that primates and humans evolved from a shared ancestor not humans from primates. That is a common misconception. Just because we an incredibly similar genetic system with chimpanzees and bonobos does not mean we are doomed to act like them. I believe in free will and I believe you do too, right? If understanding how evolution works and the knowledge of the shared ancestry ruptures your moral and ethical foundation, then I would say that they could not have been very strong in the first place. Our biology does not have to dictate our actions (all the time). I've seen christians act like "monkeys" just as much as atheists and buddhists, children and adults.

I'm not sure who you are addressing. It doesn't seem to be me, as I'm not a Pastor, and I said nothing about primates.

If you did mean to address it to me, well, it just proves you have no idea what you are talking about and have to go on a long dumb rant using a straw man argument that your comfortable with instead of tackling the actual questions at stake.

Seeing how you believe in evolution, I guess you are probably of below-average intelligence, so using arguments with big words will probably go over your head. For this reason, I provide you with these handy comics, perfect for those of your mental capacity:

http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0055/0055_01.asp

http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/1041/1041_01.asp

By the way, the Bible doesn't say anything about free will. It actually tells us God controls all of our actions and decides before we are born who He loves and who He hates, based on His own reasons not for anything we have done, and makes sinners sin so he can damn them, and good people good so He can save them. He does this to manifest His glory.

[Meek and Humble]

Re: Evolution Is A Fact

Some excellent points. I would first talk about the paragraph on the link you sent me about origin of life. I will say that it is entirely possible that God created the universe, I believe he did, but after that, he set evolution in motion to do the rest. No one knows how the first replicating life form came to be.

The 2nd point I would address is the issue with irreducible complexity. this is a common misunderstanding of design and a mouse trap is a poor example because it is not a living organism. I like the example of the human eye myself. People will often say that a human eye is so complex that if any part was missing or underdeveloped it would not work. Everything is to be in place in order for it to function. For modern species eyes, yes. You're right. But if we think of it in evolutionary terms, 1/2 of an eye is better than no eye when you're thinking in terms of survival of the fittest. 20% visability is better than 19% visability when faced with a predator, right? Even if it's a slight advantage. It's those sligt advantages over millenia that add up into what we have today. Small, successive changes over many, many years is how evolution works.

Also, while I'm here. Regarding the fossil record of course there are some gaps. They are fossils, they are subject to millenia of erosion, destruction, and simply not being found because they're hidden from us. Just having a couple examples is more than enough to prove evolution. We're lucky to have the ones we do. And there are many, many examples of 'transitional' fossils. Archaeoptrix is a common example of a kind of hybrid, reptile bird. The Thrinaxodon is another example of a "mammal like reptile" I hope this clarifies the misunderstanding of what information is available.

You obviously did not read the links I provided. Oh well, it's your soul going to hell, not mine.

I have every sympathy with those who find this question difficult to answer. In my teens I believed that creation was true, but during my University years and afterwards I began to compromise. I became a theoretical creationist on Sundays, and a practical evolutionist for the rest of the week. In practice I thought little about the matter, although it remained a mild irritant in the background. Later I worked out a fairly comfortable position as a theistic evolutionist—that is, I accepted the evolutionary theory as true, but wherever an atheist would write ‘chance’, I would substitute ‘God’ or ‘Providence’. How man and animals evolved, I did not know, but I was certain that whatever means had been used, God was in control. Recently, however, the evidence has compelled me to become a creationist. I say compelled because my whole medical training and indeed all that I hear from day to day in books and the media, shouts evolution at me. It is hard to abandon the thought processes of a lifetime.
This recent change of opinion has not occurred because I discovered creation to be more scientifically credible than evolution. Even convinced evolutionists find it difficult to account for the origin of the worlds from nothing and of life from primordial slime; they wonder at the complexity and beauty of design in nature, as they often acknowledge by giving the word a capital ‘N’—Nature. I am a creationist because I believe that Creation alone conforms to the total thrust of Scripture as it is unfolded from Genesis to Revelation, and particularly as the Gospel is revealed in the New Testament.
Most devout Christians ask, ‘But does it matter? Why rock the boat? The battle, creation versus evolution, was fought (and lost) by previous generations of Christians. Why bring it up now?’ But it does matter, for the following reasons:
(If you are a Christian please ponder this deeply with an open Bible and prayer.)

1. Genesis 1-9 purports to be history rather than poetry or mythology. Writers throughout Scripture, particularly in the Psalms and the New Testament, treat it as history, as did our Lord. Genesis is more quoted in the rest of the Bible than any other book. If the early chapters of Genesis are allegory, what about the walls of Jericho, Jonah and the great fish, the virgin birth, and the resurrection of Christ? At what point do you say, ‘But that I can't believe?’
2. Unless the world was originally created ‘good’ it is difficult to see how man could ‘fall’. From what state did he fall? If Adam was derived from some pre-existing hominoid what is the significance of sin? If there was no historic fall, why is there need of a Saviour?
3. Adam was told that the penalty for sin would be death, but what thrust had that if millions of animals, including hominoids, had died over thousands of years? In both Old and New Testaments sin is repeatedly coupled with death: ‘The wages of sin is death,’ Romans 6:23. Adam's sin is specifically linked with death in Romans 5 and 1 Corinthians 15. In the latter passage it is certain that physical death is intended. If death occurred before Adam sinned the total Gospel is negated, including our hope of the resurrection.
4. The evolutionary method involving violence, pain and death is totally out of keeping with the character of God as revealed in Scripture. Our God is a God of joy, peace and love. He destroyed the Earth at the time of Noah because it was filled with violence. The Lord said, ‘I will blot out man whom I have created from the face of the land from man to animals to creeping things and to birds of the sky; for I am sorry that I have made them’ (Genesis 6:7). It is noteworthy that it was the violence of animals as well as man that God deplored.
5. Atheistic evolutionists have difficulty accounting for altruism. Where do love and philanthropy come from in a world evolving by chance mutation and natural selection? Theistic evolutionists have a problem too. If God used the evolutionary method, then He is the author of pain and suffering and evil. God becomes a devil. Only an initially perfect world, created by a loving God but ruined by the entrance of sin can account for both the good and evil which we find around us.
6. The origin of many basic doctrines can be traced to the first chapters of Genesis. For example, it is impossible for the narrative of the creation of Eve and out of Adam—woman out of man—to be anything other than fanciful mythology or historic truth. At least seven fundamental Biblical doctrines are linked with the last three verses of Genesis 2, the passage which recounts the creation of Eve:
   * The headship of man over woman 1 Cor. 11:3, 8, 9; Eph. 5:22-24 * Woman in the church 1 Tim. 2:11-13 * Marriage Matt. 19:4-9 * Divorce Matt. 19:7-10 * Sexual immorality 1 Cor. 6:16 * Husbands to love their wives Eph. 5:28. 29a. 31 * Christ's love for His body the Church Eph. 5:25-32; 1:22, 23; Col. 1:15-18, 24 If Eve was born per via naturalis, from some pre-existing animal, then all these doctrines are based on a misleading myth.
7. The Judeo-Christian pattern of one day's rest in seven follows directly on the fact that the world was created in six days and God rested on the seventh (Genesis 2:2, Exodus 20:11).
8. Evolution (including presumably theistic evolution) is a continuing process. Darwin's book, The Origin of Species, was subtitled, The preservation of favoured races in the struggle for life. Evolution provides the scientific orthodoxy for the philosophies of Marxism, fascism, racism, apartheid and unbridled capitalism.
9. Evolution lowers man from the ‘image of God’ to the level of an animal. Why then should he not behave as one, in his own life and towards others?
10. The longevity of Adam, Seth and others (Genesis 5) can be nothing but mythology if evolution is true. Primitive man rarely lived much beyond forty years.

Conclusion

A Christian has the following options:

1. To assume that Genesis 1-9 is allegory, myth or poetry not to be taken literally. But if so, what do we do with the rest of the Bible? Why stop there?
2. To hold on to both creation and evolution and try to reconcile the two. This state is unstable and readily leads to liberalism.
3. To ignore the Old Testament and make an existential leap to a shallow believism.
4. To accept that ‘by faith we understand that the worlds were made by the word of God’ (Hebrews 11:3). Only in this, the Scriptural way, do we find release from the tensions of the conflict.

[ClarificatiOnDarwin]

Re: Evolution Is A Fact

Actually, I'm very bright, please do discuss with me your ideas and beliefs without comics, I can handle it. Promise. I thought I was replying to a Pastors link, sorry about the confusion.

And again, you cannot quote the bible as evidence against evolution. That is the exact opposite way to provide support for this conversation, because you cannot prove much of what the bible says scientifically, unlike evolution.

If your argument is that what no once can see, touch, taste, hear, smell, is up there guiding our actions, then you're right I can't prove something that in all accounts....does not exist.

Free will is absolutely in the bible. To say that it does not, contradicts much of it. Here is a small example that implies, very clearly that we have the choice to believe and not to.
"Whosoever believes shall be saved" Jn 3:16


Also...if we don't have free will, why isn't the whole world full of chirsitans? Why are there non believers?

[Meek and Humble]

Re: Evolution Is A Fact

Actually, I'm very bright, please do discuss with me your ideas and beliefs without comics, I can handle it. Promise. I thought I was replying to a Pastors link, sorry about the confusion.

And again, you cannot quote the bible as evidence against evolution. That is the exact opposite way to provide support for this conversation, because you cannot prove much of what the bible says scientifically, unlike evolution.

If your argument is that what no once can see, touch, taste, hear, smell, is up there guiding our actions, then you're right I can't prove something that in all accounts....does not exist.

To summarize, the above, "blah, blah blah, I hate God and am smarter than Him."

Free will is absolutely in the bible. To say that it does not, contradicts much of it. Here is a small example that implies, very clearly that we have the choice to believe and not to.
"Whosoever believes shall be saved" Jn 3:16


Also...if we don't have free will, why isn't the whole world full of chirsitans? Why are there non believers?

If you had bothered to read what I posted, you would see I already answered that:

"It actually tells us God controls all of our actions and decides before we are born who He loves and who He hates, based on His own reasons not for anything we have done, and makes sinners sin so he can damn them, and good people good so He can save them. He does this to manifest His glory."

Here are some of the many Bible passages that agree with this (there are none that disagree):

God determines who is going to heaven ...

"And as many as were ordained to eternal life believed." -- Acts 13:48

"For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate.... Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified." -- Romans 8:29-30

"Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began." -- 2 Timothy 1:9

"He hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will." -- Ephesians 1:4-5

"God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation." -- 2 Thessalonians 2:13

and who is going to hell.

"God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned." -- 2 Thessalonians 2:11-12

"For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation." -- Jude 4

There's nothing you can do about it.

"For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth. .... For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction." -- Romans 9:11-22

God wants some to go to hell.

Proverbs 16:4
The Lord hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

John 12:40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day. John 6:44

There are many more, but I think I'll let these wash over you. Considering the fact that the only verse you could come up with im your sorry excuse of a counter-argument was the oft-quoted John 3:16, I assume you've never touched a Bible.