[Titus Templeton]

Re: Oil, disproving evilution!

I thought of that as well, brother Titus, so I tested it myself. I used my daughter's remaining guinea pigs (the ones that survived from tests with liquid nitrogen) to see if they evolve any better than wildlife. Other one I held under the surface in bucket filled with oil, another I just left to paddle in the oil. The one held under the oil died quite a lot faster than one left on surface. Eventually, it died as well, only slower.

I examined both very closely, but I saw absolutely no signs of any improved skin condition or oil breathing gills. Absolutely no evilution happened.

Could you please phone me the next time you do such an experiment?
It would be awesome to be a part of it. My wife has a small budgie and we could take him for another experiment.

[Alphonse Alban]

Re: Oil, disproving evilution!

but if you see a picture of a coyote in year 20.000 BC, and then see it today, the changes will be more obvious.

I know that many animals were somewhat different pre-flood (like kangarosaurus) but I have never heard pre-universe coyote used as evidence.
As universe is around 6000 years old, give or take few years, idea of 22 000 years old coyote is quite hilarious.

Could you please phone me the next time you do such an experiment?
It would be awesome to be a part of it. My wife has a small budgie and we could take him for another experiment.

Well Of course, birds could provide whole new evidence against evilution.

We could for example see if wingspan evolves in anyway, if bird is put to flight in carbon monoxide.

[MisterM]

Re: Oil, disproving evilution!

but if you see a picture of a coyote in year 20.000 BC, and then see it today, the changes will be more obvious.

Of course there would be changes, after 20000 years, coyote would have been decomposed and only dust would be left.

YiC, M

[Alvin]

Re: Oil, disproving evilution!

A short run-down of what Evolution is. (This is not to prove evolution, since that is impossible, but to state what it really is)

Variation:

A group (or population if you like) must have individuals with different abilities, and a mechanism for adding new variation. (Random changes in the genome of an individual - Mutation)

Reproduction/Heredity:

The individuals must be able to reproduce, and the new abilities must be hereditary. Two variations can only change into a third via reproduction.

Selection:

The individuals inherited abilities must affect the individuals ability to reproduce, by survival (being able to get food easier, like better eyes, or more muscle mass, or perhaps being more heat-resistant) The changes are incredible subtle from generation to generation, but if you see a picture of a coyote in year 20.000 BC, and then see it today, the changes will be more obvious.

All in all: Something changes, if that change is bad, the ability will probably not be passed on, due to death. If it is good, and gets passed on, it will then be inherited by future generations.

The fact that oddors die because of oil on some coast is not proof that evolution is false.

Wow - and you call us dogmatic, with all the prescriptive "must have", "must be", "can only" and the "is bad", "is good" teleological undertones? I had no idea evolution rested on so many assumptions.

I still had this Dawkins guy ringing in my ear with his simplistic: "Life results from the nonrandom survival of randomly varying replicators" - but I guess I didn't understand how many unfounded assumptions Evolution made, until you came along. Thank you for increasing my faith!

But as far as I can follow you, you are trying to make a case for how change can occur and how small change over time (although you have your timing off - the world was created 6000 years ago!) can accumulate.

This in itself is nothing new - my waistline has been evolving over much shorter timespans, yet I see a significant change. But I still haven't turned into a Whale yet (that is: my lower limbs have not degenerated and been swallowed up by fat). Where is your evolution now?

YiC,

Alvin

[James Hutchins]

Re: Oil, disproving evilution!

I have had, ridden/driven/flown all sorts of machines. Other than bing in Church, nothing is better bonding time than spending time with some of your sons out in the shop, working on the old GT40, P-51 or the classic Whale tail. Now, we have suffered a few engine failures, mostly due to simple old age though a few were caused by demons. We would often cut open the oil filters to discern the cause of the failure. And do you know what? Not once, not a single time did we find a 'dinosaur' bone in there. Or any animal bone or eyeballs for that matter. And do not try and tell me they dissolved. I have tried dissolving bones, using all kinds of acids, it is difficult if not impossible. Even when you burn a person up using a plasma torch, you get dust, not oil. And I never found any dust in my oil filters. I have squeezed quite a few animals in my life and not a single drop of oil came out. A lot of blood and entails, bit no oil. And if oil in the ground came from animals, then were did water in the ground come from? Wet animals? The facts here are that God puts it in the ground for us. Wells go dry when He feels we have taken enough. If you check, most dry wells are not owned by Christians. My daddy has a few oil wells, (not many six I think). They have been pumping steadily since I was in infant and still do so today.

[drTarzan]

Re: Oil, disproving evilution!

I'm sorry to break it to you, but you have some faults in your reasoning:

1.Evolution states that minor changer in the environment provoke even more minor changes to the organisms that live in it. It also doesn't state that EVERY organism adapt to the changes. In fact, most of them can't adapt and just die off. And that's with a minor change. The oil spill is very VERY toxic to almost every organism and it happened in a very short time, increasing the concentration of oil from practically 0% to be swimming literally in oil, effectively wiping out every non-adapted life form.

2.Various strains of oil-resistant bacteria have been found on those water over the past few months, and studying their evolution, you can clearly see how their population has risen sky-high with their oil resistance and their ability to synthesize oil derived substances for their own profit.

[Jedediah]

Re: Oil, disproving evilution!

I'm sorry to break it to you, but you have some faults in your reasoning:

1.Evolution states that minor changer in the environment provoke even more minor changes to the organisms that live in it. It also doesn't state that EVERY organism adapt to the changes. In fact, most of them can't adapt and just die off. And that's with a minor change. The oil spill is very VERY toxic to almost every organism and it happened in a very short time, increasing the concentration of oil from practically 0% to be swimming literally in oil, effectively wiping out every non-adapted life form.

2.Various strains of oil-resistant bacteria have been found on those water over the past few months, and studying their evolution, you can clearly see how their population has risen sky-high with their oil resistance and their ability to synthesize oil derived substances for their own profit.

When you seek worldly knowledge and believe the lies and "theories" of those who choose to rebel against their Creator rather than simply accepting His kind offer of Redemption, you are damning yourself to eternal hellfire.

I Timothy 6:20-21
O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called:
Which some professing have erred concerning the faith. Grace be with thee. Amen.

If you are interested in a serious inquiry into why the world works the way it does, I suggest reading some of the material put out by my colleagues at the Institution for Creation Research.

[Dan U. Holier]

Re: Oil, disproving evilution!

I'm sorry to break it to you, but you have some faults in your reasoning:

1.Evolution states that minor changer in the environment provoke even more minor changes to the organisms that live in it. It also doesn't state that EVERY organism adapt to the changes. In fact, most of them can't adapt and just die off. And that's with a minor change. The oil spill is very VERY toxic to almost every organism and it happened in a very short time, increasing the concentration of oil from practically 0% to be swimming literally in oil, effectively wiping out every non-adapted life form.

2.Various strains of oil-resistant bacteria have been found on those water over the past few months, and studying their evolution, you can clearly see how their population has risen sky-high with their oil resistance and their ability to synthesize oil derived substances for their own profit.

Let use the Occam Razor on the above case: (allegedly) a vast majority of specimen perished due to the spill - except few ones. In which way would that support the theory of Evolution? How much this story differs from the Biblical account on the Flood? Even IF there would be any coincidence, would it necessary mean the consequence? What happened with causality - (allegedly) a basic assumption of science – in this case?

The Evolution devotees flaunt with a bunch of “empirical data”, alas without any certainty; devout Christians don’t need “empirical data” to be certain; we have the inerrant KJV.1611 Bible as the proof.

YiC

Dan

P.S.: how about an introduction?

[drTarzan]

Re: Oil, disproving evilution!

I never said it supported evolution, and if I did, please quote that part verbatim. The only part where I say evolution on the second point, I'm referring to how they've studied their population growth over a few weeks. The only point I wanted to make was that a random event like this can have consequences down the line, consequences that aren't necessarily caused directly by God. (In this case, the consequences being a severe decrease in several populations over the affected area for a given length of time). And please, stop giving me infraction, I'm not saying God doesn't exist or anything, reporting me unto oblivion is, besides cowardly, only showing that you can't rebate my arguments.

[Billy Bob Jenkins]

Re: Oil, disproving evilution!

I never said it supported evolution, and if I did, please quote that part verbatim. The only part where I say evolution on the second point, I'm referring to how they've studied their population growth over a few weeks. The only point I wanted to make was that a random event like this can have consequences down the line, consequences that aren't necessarily caused directly by God. (In this case, the consequences being a severe decrease in several populations over the affected area for a given length of time). And please, stop giving me infraction, I'm not saying God doesn't exist or anything, reporting me unto oblivion is, besides cowardly, only showing that you can't rebate my arguments.

Your logic and reason are irrelevant.

The Bible doesn't present a case, or an argument. It just makes bald assertions about the historicity of miraculous and otherwise extraordinary events. It is to be believed on faith, on pain of eternal punishment, not due to reasons or facts. So everything you are saying is irrelevant. If you can't follow this then you are too stupid for Salvation(tm).

[drTarzan]

Re: Oil, disproving evilution!

Sorry, I didn't know you guys use to intruduce yourselves around here.
I'm Stanley Duarte, a 2nd year Physics graduate student in the Autonomous University of Barcelona. Apatheist, just looking for some fun debating about this kind of stuff. Have to give it to you, you are really giving me a hard time debunking why the sun can't be 500 miles away, but that may be just another reason why I flunked thermodinamics I. Well, I guess i'll study enough to be able to debunk that one, and others. Hell, even one of your own went on a low orbit flight and brought back pictures about the earth's spherical nature and you almost cut him in half. ( http://www.landoverbaptist.net/showthread.php?t=62030 )

[drTarzan]

Re: Oil, disproving evilution!

So, let me get this straight: Every reasoning I make is absolute bogus, since faith requieres no reason. But, you can make posts demonstrating mathematically that the sun is 500 miles over the earth? I do not fear eternal punishment, so you can stop throwing that one at me.

[Pastor Ezekiel]

Re: Oil, disproving evilution!

I do not fear eternal punishment, so you can stop throwing that one at me.

Then you are a fool.

Psalm 14:1 The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done
abominable works, there is none that doeth good.

Why are you here? Did satan send you to persecute us?

[Billy Bob Jenkins]

Re: Oil, disproving evilution!

So, let me get this straight: Every reasoning I make is absolute bogus, since faith requieres no reason. But, you can make posts demonstrating mathematically that the sun is 500 miles over the earth? I do not fear eternal punishment, so you can stop throwing that one at me.

I also have firsthand evidence of the Holy Ghost that you can never refute. Every time I read the KJV Bible I get goosebumps all over and an overwhelming sense of personal justification, like my existence has the blessing of some ultimate authority. Refute that, atheist!

[drTarzan]

Re: Oil, disproving evilution!

Why are you here? Did satan send you to persecute us?

Sorry, I've never spoken with "Satan". You guys are all over our physics blog, we spend our time having fun about how your "scientific" theories are so physically wrong that a 1st year student can debunk them.

I also have firsthand evidence of the Holy Ghost that you can never refute. Every time I read the KJV Bible I get goosebumps all over and an overwhelming sense of personal justification, like my existence has the blessing of some ultimate authority. Refute that, atheist!

Yeah, and I also get that when I read R.R. Martin's Song of Fire and Ice, prey by Michael Crichton, any of Magic the Gathering's story books, and The Neverending Story by Michael Ende. Your point?