[Psybird]

Re: Ten points that CRUSH Atheism

The spanish inquisition was set into place by CHRISTIANS.
By the way, you forgot the number three...

[Zechariah Smyth]

The spanish inquisition was set into place by CHRISTIANS.
By the way, you forgot the number three...

BALONEY.

It was done by child-molesting catlicks. They are NOT Christians by any definition of the word.

Yours in Christ (NOT MARY),

Z. Smyth
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[AVRafaelovna]

Re: Ten points that CRUSH Atheism

I have a simple question - how do these 9 points 'CRUSH' Atheism. What is the purpose of this post? The last sentence implies a call for a discussion, but why call for a discussion if you do not wish for one to more forward. I am angry with both those for and against the 9 points because all of your arguments a weak.

My contribution is such- everyone both for and against the 9 points please take a dictionary and look up the word atheism. STOP using it to mean - ' those who do not believe in your god/ have pagan beliefes/ follow less 'popular' deities'.

On all points concerned with an atheists moral compass. Read Nietzsche. And if you wish to reply spare me the use of any quote from Zarathusta's prologue. That would be beyond laughable.Not wikipedia him but actually read. This may actually help you to write better arguments on the subject.

On point 10. Well Siberian Shamanism is an example of such a religion. The infinite creator was named sila. The Siberian Shamans were discovered at the beginning of the 20th century and assimilated into the orthodox community with great ease.

My advice to the author of the 9 points is before running around with lists presented falsely as arguments against atheism- do your research. Read widely on history,philosophy,science and obviously theology. Perhaps do a theology degree.

You make great claims but cannot back them. If you think they are so obvious that they do not need proper argumentation what are you doing preaching on the internet? Seriously, if you do not want to improve your argumentation skills constructively then I can tell you this:

It is not your god given virtue to preach. You have neither the intellect nor the discipline to make a good teacher.

If however you feel you can and want to improve I am sorry- I wish you luck and hope to read a new and improved 9 points. Or maybe an excellent 4 or 5. Ignorance of your shortcoming would be only the manifestation of pride. Pride as we all here know is a sin.

A good way for you to assess your points would be to ask yourself - " is this a good enough piece of writing to show god as a representation of my beliefs?"
If the answer truthfully is no you know you've got more work to do.

[Jack O'fagan]

Re: Ten points that CRUSH Atheism

I have a simple question - how do these 9 points 'CRUSH' Atheism. What is the purpose of this post? The last sentence implies a call for a discussion, but why call for a discussion if you do not wish for one to more forward. I am angry with both those for and against the 9 points because all of your arguments a weak.

My contribution is such- everyone both for and against the 9 points please take a dictionary and look up the word atheism. STOP using it to mean - ' those who do not believe in your god/ have pagan beliefes/ follow less 'popular' deities'.

On all points concerned with an atheists moral compass. Read Nietzsche. And if you wish to reply spare me the use of any quote from Zarathusta's prologue. That would be beyond laughable.Not wikipedia him but actually read. This may actually help you to write better arguments on the subject.

On point 10. Well Siberian Shamanism is an example of such a religion. The infinite creator was named sila. The Siberian Shamans were discovered at the beginning of the 20th century and assimilated into the orthodox community with great ease.

My advice to the author of the 9 points is before running around with lists presented falsely as arguments against atheism- do your research. Read widely on history,philosophy,science and obviously theology. Perhaps do a theology degree.

You make great claims but cannot back them. If you think they are so obvious that they do not need proper argumentation what are you doing preaching on the internet? Seriously, if you do not want to improve your argumentation skills constructively then I can tell you this:

It is not your god given virtue to preach. You have neither the intellect nor the discipline to make a good teacher.

If however you feel you can and want to improve I am sorry- I wish you luck and hope to read a new and improved 9 points. Or maybe an excellent 4 or 5. Ignorance of your shortcoming would be only the manifestation of pride. Pride as we all here know is a sin.

A good way for you to assess your points would be to ask yourself - " is this a good enough piece of writing to show god as a representation of my beliefs?"
If the answer truthfully is no you know you've got more work to do.

It's amazing how somebody can use so many words to say nothing.

[Redeemed Papist]

Re: Ten points that CRUSH Atheism

These atheists surely bang on an awful lot trying to shore up their failed non-belief system. Did anyone manage to bring themselves to read it all?

As usual they have no answer to God's word other than to erroneously claim it was made up by people. That, in reality, is the sole foundation of their theory and the rest is flim flam that sounds clever until you realise they can't actually be right.
Posted via Mobile Device

[AVRafaelovna]

Re: Ten points that CRUSH Atheism

To Mr. Jack O'fagan, perhaps I should have used a less diplomatic approach- the 4 points in my post seem quite clearly demonstrated but I shall summarise them in the form preferable to you.

1. The 9 voids are void. There is no consistent aim or argumentation behind them.

2. I try to establish that too often is word atheist misused.

3. This refers to both point 1, the latter half of 4, 5 and 6. Which could have been summarised by the author into 2 points. They are statements with no argumentation. They demand further study.

4. The author should study to improve, as his work right now is disgracefully superficial and unintelligent (is this a hoax?) I included some advice on how to do this.

[Brother Temperance]

Re: Ten points that CRUSH Atheism

Well to start with, the Inquisitions, including the Spanish Inquistions, were instigated and run by, guess what, Christians. Catholics were Christians long before you lot.

Factually incorrect. How can anyone take you seriously if you can't even tell the difference between Christians and idolators?

There are fanatics and nut-cases in every religion and a lot of good people too.

Define a "good person".

From a biological viewpoint we are all just animals.

So you admit that Bobby-Joe's characterisation of your viewpoint is 1000% correct.

The rest of your rambling is just that. By the way some people do choose to run about naked and some truly mad uninhibited people do often throw their faeces around. As for not eating each other that is more of a moral choice and people did eat each other a long time ago.

Yes, we know! These people are called "atheists".

Finally animals are not here on this planet to treat any way we see fit. Is it OK then by your standard to torture and mistreat other creatures? There is nothing wrong with eating the flesh of other animals, but while they are alive they should be treated with respect and care. When the time comes, slaughtering should be done quickly and humanely and with the least amount of suffering possible to the animal, preferably none.

What moral standard are you basing this on? Is it OK to kill other living beings for your pleasure or isn't it?

You keep digging up old and ancient beliefs to compare with your modern "moral" beliefs. Most societies in history believed that might was right and that their ways were the right ways.

And that proves that we cannot rely on secular morality, but only on God's Law.

The US wanted nothing to do with the war in Europe in 1939 when Hitler's armies invaded neighbouring countries. That's right those evil Nazi atheists. It didn't directly affect the US so most of its citizens didn't care. Calls for help from Great Britain, the ally of the US, were repeatedly turned down. It wasn't until Germany's ally Japan bombed Pearl Harbor that America got its hackles up and sent help in any numbers that would help. Thank God you eventually came and saved Australia from those evil Japanese Atheists too.

Oh boo hoo, some Eurotrash Joos got killed and no-one cared. Cry me a river.

Do we really need to bring up Iraq? Who was it that helped Saddam Hussein take power in Iraq in the first place? I think you might find it was the US. It helped "liberate Iraq from the previous regime because it suited the US at the time. So don't give me morally superior.

God chose King Saul to be King over Israel. Then He repented of it (1 Samuel 15:11). I see no reason why the US can't do the same thing.

Carving up a person would be nothing like cutting up a pig.

From a biological viewpoint we are all just animals.

Make up your mind. Are we just animals or aren't we?

You really do have problems with the meaning of words don't you?

A Christian is by defintion someone who adheres to Christianity which is an Abrahamic (those Jews again) religion that is based on the life and teachings of Jesus of Nazareth. The word "Christian" is derived from the Greek word "Christ" which is a translation of the word "Messiah" (oops those pesky Jews again). Christian believe that there is hope of salvation by following Jesus' message and because of his sacrifice on the cross. But then as a Christian, you should know that.

Let's make a wild assumption for the sake of this discussion that God and Jesus the Christ existed. You can argue that God has always been God no matter what he was called throughout history but logic decrees that Christianity can only have been around since Jesus' death and resurrection. Since it is pretty much accepted that Jesus would have been crucified and died around the year 30 AD, or 30 CE, whatever your preference, Christianity can only have been around about 2000 years.

So the past before the Christian Era was filled with Atheists, Pagans, Druids, various Native Americans, ancient aborigine peoples of many kinds, but definitely no Christians and no Muslims because by defition they could not have existed.

You're using secular definitions. Using secular definitions, you can make Christianity sound immoral and libertarian communism sound sensible, so we'll have none of your twisted definitions here. A Christian is a follower of the One True God, and so we've been around as long as people have worshipped God; Catholics, atheists, and Muslims are just names for different branches of Satan-worshippers.

Can even show me any kind of a god that exists within this universe even a false one?

Yes, all the false gods. Go back and read Bobby-Joe's post again.

You might not like it but at least the Islamic Qur'an or Koran is consistent in its writings unlike the Bible.

Nonsense. Which Koran? Are we including the Suras here?

You people are scary and Jesus would be horrified with you've done to his ideals. Shocled that I might believe that Jesus existed? I have no problem with his existence as a man just as the son of a god of some kind.

What evidence do you base your belief in Jesus on?

Oh talk about "pride going before a fall". Your belief in your absolute moral superiority is astounding. I just thought you were a bit sad and deluded but your are completely bonkers. If the Christian US had its way, it would still have a thriving economy instead of owing about $60,000,000,000,000.

So you admit that Christians are superior at economics? Well, that's a start.

"#4To an atheists there is no difference between an animal and a human
To an Atheist A pig or a human, an ape or a human, what is the difference? For Atheists they are all products of random chance. If Atheists were true to their beliefs they would be running around naked and tossing feces at each other and eating other people. They lack the compassion for their fellow man to realize animals are just tools placed here for us to use as we see fit."


This is a little backwards. Because Atheists recognize that all animals evolved, they are also able to recognize that each species has its own specific social order.
Our social order does not accept behavior like that, so we refrain.

So if you lived in a different social order, you'd have no problem with running around killing people and throwing your faeces at them? Do you have any problem with any aspects of Islamic fundamentalism?

I have a simple question - how do these 9 points 'CRUSH' Atheism.

With excellent Christian logic, that's how.
Anyway, I am called away on THE LORD's business now, but I shall be back to demolish your other nonsensical points shortly.

[AVRafaelovna]

Re: Ten points that CRUSH Atheism

#1 Atheists have no mercy or pity for others.
Time and time again history as shown with the Nazis, the Communists, the New Deal, the Spanish Inquisition that atheists will behave in a cruel and callous manner towards thier fellow man.

There were many cruel leaders in history and the majority were not Atheists, also The Spanish Inquisition were not atheists, many of the Nazi's weren't atheists but followed pagan practices. Cruelty and callousness is rather a quality of political figures who strive for power and fame than it is definitive of Atheists.



#2 To an Atheist a natural disaster is just a random event
Only a Christian can understand that when a building collapses in an earthquake that is the hand of God slaying sinners. Atheists are willfully blind to the unconditional tough love of God for His creation. In short Atheists lack pity for those who are killed in these disasters.

Understanding of natural disasters has nothing to do with pity- clarifying the connection is necessary here. Also as stated before on natural disasters- most Atheists do not find these occurrences random.

#4To an atheists there is no difference between an animal and a human
To an Atheist A pig or a human, an ape or a human, what is the difference? For Atheists they are all products of random chance. If Atheists were true to their beliefs they would be running around naked and tossing feces at each other and eating other people. They lack the compassion for their fellow man to realize animals are just tools placed here for us to use as we see fit.

There has been enough said on this thread against this point. Again argumentation is counter productive whether by evolution or by the creation of God all human beings who have reason see the intellectual superiority of Humans above animals. If you value the human being above all other life on earth you by extension see animals as tools to be used as you see fit. The argument on evolution (in terms of CRUSHING atheism) needs to use scientific data. For instance by the laws of evolution we are 98% similiar to Apes- so why is it a human being can only have a heart transplant from a pig? In terms of evolutionary science at this point- it doesn't make sense. It is an argument for divine creation.


#5 Only biblical faith offers objective standards of good and evil.
One just has to look at atheists societies like ancient Rome to see they had completely different morality than the Christian society of the West now. Rome lived by a philosophy of might makes right that gave Rome the moral superiority to invade their neighbors. Contrast that with America's war of liberation in Iraq and Mexico in 1848. Christians have the morality to know when their neighbors are evil and need to be destroyed.

Ancient Rome was not Athiest- Romans had there own gods. Atheists have no god/gods. Neither do Christians have objective standards of good an evil, they are subjective to God and we must follow that subjective choice. The rest of the post is beginning to indicate your work is a joke. This is not an argument against atheism rather a statement of why it is unfortunate to be born or choose to become an atheist.

#6 Atheists have no reason to feel pity for anyone or anything.
Sure Atheists may feel pity in their hearts of hearts but philosophically they have no reason to. Carving another human being up to them is just like carving a pig.

Getting interesting here, finally a point that raises wide philosophical ethical debate. However your poor argumentation (again) leads one to think you yourself do not understand the point's significance. Atheists may feel pity, after all they also function on a set of values and morality (whether it be the same as yours or absolutely opposite) they can and may feel pity. Whether that is due to sociological or philosophical introspection is where it gets interesting. I would be interested to hear what you think of TRUE CHRISTIANS who only follow the word of god out of fear. Do you think they have felt with their whole virtue and with honesty the word of God? Or are they simply cowards?


#7 Throughout human history there have never been any other gods but God.
God is the only God humanity ever had. Sure various confused pagans called God by different names like Thor, Zeus, Angra Mainyu and Kali but that has always been God. The past was not atheists, it Was Christian.

No it wasn't CHRISTIAN they may have believed in God but not it Jesus Christ as he was not yet born and the New Testament was not written. You are right though it wasn't Atheist because ATHEISTS DONT BELIEVE IN DEITIES OF ANY KIND.

#8 There were false gods, but they were false because they exist within the Universe, not outside it.
No atheist can show us a false god who existed outside the universe so case closed.

Atheists have no intention of such a demonstration because for them the problem doesn't exist. For the 3rd time- Atheism is the belief that no deity of ANY kind whether in or outside of the universe exists.

#9 Any religion younger than Christianity is just a copy of Christianity.
Since Christianity is the Gold standard of morality all other religions just copy Christian doctrine like Islam. Atheism is younger than Christianity therefor Atheism is a mockery of Christianity.

Even if it were a mockery of Christianity that makes no difference to the theoretical nature of Atheism. If you wish to use the temporal historical context as a form of logical argumentation you will be forced into admitting that Christianity is younger than Judaism thus a copy of Judaism etc. Using such argumentation is against your own intentions.

#10 Only Christianity has ever had the idea of an eternal, infinite creator God.
No one, not the Egyptians, the Meso-Americans or even the Sumerians has a infinite God. Even Atheism doesn't have an infinite creator God.

-Obviously Atheists don't have an infinite creator God. Atheists have no god. That may be a twisted argument against other religions but it certainly doesn't CRUSH or DESTROY atheism. Furthermore it isn't valid, read first post.

[Bobby-Joe]

Re: Ten points that CRUSH Atheism

[Freind,

Keep in mind I am not a master debater like Wash O'Hannly. So it goes without saying my presentation isn't as polished as Walsh, but who is?

and thank you for your reply

#1 Atheists have no mercy or pity for others.
Time and time again history as shown with the Nazis, the Communists, the New Deal, the Spanish Inquisition that atheists will behave in a cruel and callous manner towards thier fellow man.

There were many cruel leaders in history and the majority were not Atheists, also The Spanish Inquisition were not atheists, many of the Nazi's weren't atheists but followed pagan practices. Cruelty and callousness is rather a quality of political figures who strive for power and fame than it is definitive of Atheists.

You complain about me not understand what Atheism friend and post this? By definition atheism "against gods". Since some one not for Christ they are against Him. That makes them Atheists.

Please show a TRUE Christian™ leader who has behaved with cruelty. I bet you can't

#2 To an Atheist a natural disaster is just a random event
Only a Christian can understand that when a building collapses in an earthquake that is the hand of God slaying sinners. Atheists are willfully blind to the unconditional tough love of God for His creation. In short Atheists lack pity for those who are killed in these disasters.

Understanding of natural disasters has nothing to do with pity- clarifying the connection is necessary here. Also as stated before on natural disasters- most Atheists do not find these occurrences random.

I believe you misunderstood my point friend. To a Christian a natural disaster is an act of love of God towards humanity. To an atheist, things just happen.

#4To an atheists there is no difference between an animal and a human
To an Atheist A pig or a human, an ape or a human, what is the difference? For Atheists they are all products of random chance. If Atheists were true to their beliefs they would be running around naked and tossing feces at each other and eating other people. They lack the compassion for their fellow man to realize animals are just tools placed here for us to use as we see fit.

There has been enough said on this thread against this point. Again argumentation is counter productive whether by evolution or by the creation of God all human beings who have reason see the intellectual superiority of Humans above animals. If you value the human being above all other life on earth you by extension see animals as tools to be used as you see fit. The argument on evolution (in terms of CRUSHING atheism) needs to use scientific data. For instance by the laws of evolution we are 98% similiar to Apes- so why is it a human being can only have a heart transplant from a pig? In terms of evolutionary science at this point- it doesn't make sense. It is an argument for divine creation.

Again missing to the point; if we are animals, why not behave like animals and attack each other and throw shit around? It's something we all want to do anyway.

It's like gay marriage. Who is going to marry a woman if we are allowed to marry other men?

#5 Only biblical faith offers objective standards of good and evil.
One just has to look at atheists societies like ancient Rome to see they had completely different morality than the Christian society of the West now. Rome lived by a philosophy of might makes right that gave Rome the moral superiority to invade their neighbors. Contrast that with America's war of liberation in Iraq and Mexico in 1848. Christians have the morality to know when their neighbors are evil and need to be destroyed.

Ancient Rome was not Athiest- Romans had there own gods. Atheists have no god/gods. Neither do Christians have objective standards of good an evil, they are subjective to God and we must follow that subjective choice. The rest of the post is beginning to indicate your work is a joke. This is not an argument against atheism rather a statement of why it is unfortunate to be born or choose to become an atheist.

I would think standards of morality are a critical point. Even an atheist would accept we need right and worng for society to work. Now without God how do you know when it's morally right to invade Mexico, kill all the men, rape all the woman and take all their gold?

If we didn't have God that would just be an act of savage brutality.

#6 Atheists have no reason to feel pity for anyone or anything.
Sure Atheists may feel pity in their hearts of hearts but philosophically they have no reason to. Carving another human being up to them is just like carving a pig.

Getting interesting here, finally a point that raises wide philosophical ethical debate. However your poor argumentation (again) leads one to think you yourself do not understand the point's significance. Atheists may feel pity, after all they also function on a set of values and morality (whether it be the same as yours or absolutely opposite) they can and may feel pity. Whether that is due to sociological or philosophical introspection is where it gets interesting. I would be interested to hear what you think of TRUE CHRISTIANS who only follow the word of god out of fear. Do you think they have felt with their whole virtue and with honesty the word of God? Or are they simply cowards?

Were do you get we follow God out of fear? We love God with all the sincerity God deserves.

Put it another way, God created us so it is our nature to love Him out of our free will.

#7 Throughout human history there have never been any other gods but God.
God is the only God humanity ever had. Sure various confused pagans called God by different names like Thor, Zeus, Angra Mainyu and Kali but that has always been God. The past was not atheists, it Was Christian.

No it wasn't CHRISTIAN they may have believed in God but not it Jesus Christ as he was not yet born and the New Testament was not written. You are right though it wasn't Atheist because ATHEISTS DONT BELIEVE IN DEITIES OF ANY KIND.

Friend, everyone, even atheists know Jesus is God as 1/3 of the Trinity. Jesus has always existed.

#8 There were false gods, but they were false because they exist within the Universe, not outside it.
No atheist can show us a false god who existed outside the universe so case closed.

Atheists have no intention of such a demonstration because for them the problem doesn't exist. For the 3rd time- Atheism is the belief that no deity of ANY kind whether in or outside of the universe exists.

I hope it is not cowardace on Atheism part it refused to demonstrate an extra-cosmos diety.

#9 Any religion younger than Christianity is just a copy of Christianity.
Since Christianity is the Gold standard of morality all other religions just copy Christian doctrine like Islam. Atheism is younger than Christianity therefor Atheism is a mockery of Christianity.

Even if it were a mockery of Christianity that makes no difference to the theoretical nature of Atheism. If you wish to use the temporal historical context as a form of logical argumentation you will be forced into admitting that Christianity is younger than Judaism thus a copy of Judaism etc. Using such argumentation is against your own intentions.

Again, Jesus is 1/3 of the Trinity and predates the creation of the world 6,000 years go.

#10 Only Christianity has ever had the idea of an eternal, infinite creator God.
No one, not the Egyptians, the Meso-Americans or even the Sumerians has a infinite God. Even Atheism doesn't have an infinite creator God.

-Obviously Atheists don't have an infinite creator God. Atheists have no god. That may be a twisted argument against other religions but it certainly doesn't CRUSH or DESTROY atheism. Furthermore it isn't valid, read first post.

Oh, then explain the deification of Hitchen then if Atheism is a 100% god free.

[Mary Etheldreda]

Re: Ten points that CRUSH Atheism

I removed your bolding because it looked like you were yelling at me and that made me sad. I don't know why anyone would come to God's favorite forum to yell at Christians.

There were many cruel leaders in history and the majority were not Atheists, also The Spanish Inquisition were not atheists, many of the Nazi's weren't atheists but followed pagan practices. Cruelty and callousness is rather a quality of political figures who strive for power and fame than it is definitive of Atheists.

The Spanish Inquisition were Catholic so your point is that Catholics are worse than atheists? It seems to me there's an equal amount of depravity on both sides there what with the Catholic priests and their boys and atheists and their animals.

Understanding of natural disasters has nothing to do with pity- clarifying the connection is necessary here. Also as stated before on natural disasters- most Atheists do not find these occurrences random.

That's because God creates in you at conception a divine soul with which He draws you, woos you to Him. You know these aren't random occurrences because your soul cries out to the LORD of Lords and hears the whisper of the Holy Spirit that comforts you.

Atheists may feel pity, after all they also function on a set of values and morality (whether it be the same as yours or absolutely opposite) they can and may feel pity. Whether that is due to sociological or philosophical introspection is where it gets interesting. I would be interested to hear what you think of TRUE CHRISTIANS who only follow the word of god out of fear. Do you think they have felt with their whole virtue and with honesty the word of God? Or are they simply cowards?

Fear of the LORD is a command and a privilege. Atheists feel pity like the Catholics feel pity, you said so yourself that they are essentially the same. The Catholic only feels pity when the priest is caught and can no longer fondle boys and young men.

Atheism is the belief that no deity of ANY kind whether in or outside of the universe exists.

Your beliefs take so much faith, brother, faith in foolishness and selfishness.

Obviously Atheists don't have an infinite creator God. Atheists have no god.

Friend, that is not true! You DO have an infinite creator God! A God of Pure Love who would Die on the CROSS to pay the price for your deviant sins! Only a God of Pure Love could think of atheists or Catholics without having to choke back a little throw-up. Only a God of Pure Love who Loves and Respects you enough to give you Free Will could send you to the pits of the Lake of Everlasting Fire for your wicked denial of His existence. He does this because He LOVES YOU and deep in your soul...You Know This.

Pray, brother, confess your disgusting sins and confess Jesus is LORD and SAVIOR over you and you too can sing His glories for EVER and EVER and EVER without EVER GETTING TO STOP!

[AVRafaelovna]

Re: Ten points that CRUSH Atheism

Bobby Joe Thank you for taking your time to reply.

First off I agree there have been misunderstandings and will try to demonstrate that they have been on both parts. I think a key point is on the definition of Atheism-

I am aware that the greek origin of the word can be loosely translated as " without god" since then however the word has gained more weight and has changed to mean the belief that there are no dieties at all.

Thus I use it in the modern sense, it is quite logical for me to do so since this forum also uses many other words that have changed their meaning over time.

I respect the subjective use of language but I think to avoid further semantic discussion we must post our definitions (if they vary from the norm) before using the word and perhaps a separate thread could be dedicated to the discussion of definition.

Perhaps there would be more argument to call those who are not believers in your God agnostics rather than atheists (if they do believe in a higher power of course).

2. I did misunderstand you, perhaps that was good for me as your reply to me here was clear concise and would leave an atheist at least on a philosophical level in a stupor! On a scientific level however I believe my argument originally still stands.

4. Here I think you misunderstood me, My point is that whether animals or not we are still all living things, Reason is what distinguishes us from other living things on earth- it is the gift that god gave us that makes us the rulers of animals. I think most atheists recognise our superiority and thus value us higher. The shared value of human life is present. Also not all atheists propagandise evolution.

I think many men would still marry women even if being a homosexual was allowed.

5. This point always makes me think you are playing a role, but I am willing to play along. Standards of morality are a critical point to all thinkers I completely agree. They are needed as much for society as they are for the individual.

6. I do not get that you in particularly follow God out of fear. I was simply interested on your opinion on those who follow God out of fear - I have met many such a coward, I wondered what you thought on the subject. Perhaps my question sprang up unexpectedly, it was just a simultaneously occurring question.

7. This argument is circular for both of us.

8. This argument relies on my and modern definition of atheism. To follow my definition - my argument still stands, there is no cowardice in not trying to demonstrate the existence of something which one believes does not exist.

9. You use the metaphysical argument that God or the holy trinity exist outside of time yes? Yet the word Christian refers to the followers of Christ in particular, Jews also believe in our God but they do not accept christ. If Christ was is and will be does that mean Jews are Christians.?
Have we got lost in circularity again?

10.
I am sorry I do not know what Hitchen means. I associate the word only with the man Christopher Hitchen's. I shall not answer un till fully sure what you mean.In order not to create more misunderstandings.

[AVRafaelovna]

Re: Ten points that CRUSH Atheism

Mary The bolding was for parenthesis not to demonstrate shouting. I generally don't shout.

My point in no way implies that Catholics are worse or even the same as atheists- I do not make such judgments, I am not interested in comparing others ailments, I simply seek to demonstrate the theoretical differences.

Fear of the lord may be a command and a privilege but to follow his word out of shallow fear of the after life is an act of a pure coward. A coward only fears his God, he does not love him or respect him. No I never stated that Atheists and Catholics are the same, quite the contrary. Thus your statement on pity is void.

I am guessing you think I am an atheist or is your statement to someone else?

I was quite obviously demonstrating the theoretical position of the atheist whether he has a creator or not- to him there is no belief in one.I know God loves me and that is why he made me beautiful, talented and intellectually able.

[Delphi]

Re: Ten points that CRUSH Atheism

a few things:
1) I know Atheists can count, but apparently christians can't. Or is there something in your religion that makes the number 3 unspeakable?
2) If Atheism is a "mockery" of christianity, then it was created because of christianity, so what's so bad about it?
3) The German Nazis and the Spanish Inquisitors were christian, not Atheist.
4) In your 9th reason, you state that any religions younger than christianity are based off of it. By your logic, Christianity must have been based off the very first religion (which most definitely was NOT christianity). Thus, christianity is NOT the "golden standard" for other religions, the very first religion is.

5) In response to #8, can you prove that your "god" exists outside of the universe?
6) After reading this and many other posts, it seems that most die-hard christians make decisions not based on their feeling of what is right or wrong, but based on what the bible says. Atheists think for themselves.
7) In 1, 4, and 6, you say the same thing, that being that Atheists can't pity others. Although that is false, I care more about showing you that christianity fits that description very well. Almost every post on this site says that women, children, homosexuals, people of other races, and people who worship other religions are inferior to christians, and therefor should be prosecuted. Not only is that disgustingly stereotypical, it also displays a profound lack of pity and respect for everyone else.

8) In response to #5: the philosophical idea of good and evil is based on the human emotions of pleasure and distress. If you cause pleasure, you are deemed good, and if you cause distress, you are deemed bad. Thus, by its very nature, good and evil is highly subjective. The most common universal definition of good is something that causes pleasure to more people than it causes distress to. Being human in and of itself provides for a solid standpoint on the nature of good and evil, as part of humanity is feeling both pleasure and distress. A person with morals is going to want others to feel pleasure too. Note: according to this standard, this organization is evil as it causes pleasure only to the relatively small group of its members, and distress to the rest of the planet.
9) If you're going to make comments on other religions, as you do in #7, can you at least learn SOMETHING about the religion that you're commenting on? None of the gods spoken of were from pagan religions, and most of the gods you mentioned were not the only ones of their religions. Was your "god" Zeus, Hera, Poseidon, Demeter, Athena, Hestia, Apollo, Artemis, Ares, Aphrodite, Hephaestus, Hermes, and Dionysus all at once? Because if he is, then you are admitting your god has faults, and if not, then you are proving yourself wrong.
10) Has your "god" ever actually done anything for you? What about all the people who live in poverty? Few of them have sinned or done anything unethical, yet their life is about as pleasant as hell. Most are christian and pray every night but they get nothing. Nothing from your false god.

Sincerely, an atheist "scum"

[Brother Temperance]

Re: Ten points that CRUSH Atheism

On all points concerned with an atheists moral compass. Read Nietzsche. And if you wish to reply spare me the use of any quote from Zarathusta's prologue. That would be beyond laughable.Not wikipedia him but actually read. This may actually help you to write better arguments on the subject.

We are very tired of dealing with excitable teenage boys who love Nietzsche/Crowley/Marilyn Manson/Little Miss Sunshine. Can't one of you read some Schopenhauer for a change?

A good way for you to assess your points would be to ask yourself - " is this a good enough piece of writing to show god as a representation of my beliefs?"
If the answer truthfully is no you know you've got more work to do.

Nothing is good enough for God. It's good enough to crush atheism with, and that's all that's required.

There were many cruel leaders in history and the majority were not Atheists, also The Spanish Inquisition were not atheists, many of the Nazi's weren't atheists but followed pagan practices. Cruelty and callousness is rather a quality of political figures who strive for power and fame than it is definitive of Atheists.

The Catholics were clearly a sub-group of atheists, and the striving for power and fame is an inherent part of atheist ideology, as defined by Nietzsche.

Understanding of natural disasters has nothing to do with pity- clarifying the connection is necessary here. Also as stated before on natural disasters- most Atheists do not find these occurrences random.

The connection is God's love, that should be obvious.

There has been enough said on this thread against this point. Again argumentation is counter productive whether by evolution or by the creation of God all human beings who have reason see the intellectual superiority of Humans above animals.

So you think killing and eating retards, negroes and babies is fine and dandy?

If you value the human being above all other life on earth you by extension see animals as tools to be used as you see fit. The argument on evolution (in terms of CRUSHING atheism) needs to use scientific data. For instance by the laws of evolution we are 98% similiar to Apes- so why is it a human being can only have a heart transplant from a pig? In terms of evolutionary science at this point- it doesn't make sense. It is an argument for divine creation.

Correct. Praise! This point is further supported by the fact that no human-pig heart transplants were carried out before God cleansed pigs in Acts.

Ancient Rome was not Athiest- Romans had there own gods. Atheists have no god/gods. Neither do Christians have objective standards of good an evil, they are subjective to God and we must follow that subjective choice.

God is objective because He's God. Your standards are subjective, and often objectively wrong.

Getting interesting here, finally a point that raises wide philosophical ethical debate. However your poor argumentation (again) leads one to think you yourself do not understand the point's significance. Atheists may feel pity, after all they also function on a set of values and morality (whether it be the same as yours or absolutely opposite) they can and may feel pity. Whether that is due to sociological or philosophical introspection is where it gets interesting. I would be interested to hear what you think of TRUE CHRISTIANS who only follow the word of god out of fear. Do you think they have felt with their whole virtue and with honesty the word of God? Or are they simply cowards?

We are commanded to fear God, the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom.

No it wasn't CHRISTIAN they may have believed in God but not it Jesus Christ as he was not yet born and the New Testament was not written. You are right though it wasn't Atheist because ATHEISTS DONT BELIEVE IN DEITIES OF ANY KIND.

As Bobby-Joe says, Jesus is the Alpha and the Omega. Being the Alpha means that He pre-dates everything, even atheism.

Atheists have no intention of such a demonstration because for them the problem doesn't exist. For the 3rd time- Atheism is the belief that no deity of ANY kind whether in or outside of the universe exists.

So you admit that you cannot prove the existence of a false god outside the universe, therefore Bobby-Joe's point stands and atheism is nonsense.

Even if it were a mockery of Christianity that makes no difference to the theoretical nature of Atheism. If you wish to use the temporal historical context as a form of logical argumentation you will be forced into admitting that Christianity is younger than Judaism thus a copy of Judaism etc. Using such argumentation is against your own intentions.

As mentioned above, Jesus pre-dates Jews.

#10 Only Christianity has ever had the idea of an eternal, infinite creator God.
No one, not the Egyptians, the Meso-Americans or even the Sumerians has a infinite God. Even Atheism doesn't have an infinite creator God.

-Obviously Atheists don't have an infinite creator God. Atheists have no god. That may be a twisted argument against other religions but it certainly doesn't CRUSH or DESTROY atheism. Furthermore it isn't valid, read first post.

When combined with the fact that an infinite creator God exists, it demonstrates the falsity and incoherence of atheism. If atheism was revised to accept the existence of an infinite creator God, it would be far more rational.

My point in no way implies that Catholics are worse or even the same as atheists- I do not make such judgments, I am not interested in comparing others ailments, I simply seek to demonstrate the theoretical differences.

Typical atheist apologist. If I was the same as a Catholic, I'd want to hide the fact too.

Fear of the lord may be a command and a privilege but to follow his word out of shallow fear of the after life is an act of a pure coward. A coward only fears his God, he does not love him or respect him. No I never stated that Atheists and Catholics are the same, quite the contrary. Thus your statement on pity is void.

Yes, but in reality atheists and Catholics are the same, so your theoretical points about a hypothetical reality where they aren't the same are invalid.

I know God loves me and that is why he made me beautiful, talented and intellectually able.

Is this sarcasm?

a few things:
1) I know Atheists can count, but apparently christians can't. Or is there something in your religion that makes the number 3 unspeakable?

We love the number 3. Pi is my favourite number.

2) If Atheism is a "mockery" of christianity, then it was created because of christianity, so what's so bad about it?

The fact that it mocks God and leads to eternal damnation.

3) The German Nazis and the Spanish Inquisitors were christian, not Atheist.

I don't think you understand what Christianity is. Please read up on it and stop making a fool of yourself.
[quote[4) In your 9th reason, you state that any religions younger than christianity are based off of it. By your logic, Christianity must have been based off the very first religion (which most definitely was NOT christianity). Thus, christianity is NOT the "golden standard" for other religions, the very first religion is.[/quote]
Christianity is the very first religion.

5) In response to #8, can you prove that your "god" exists outside of the universe?

Yes. He created it, therefore He must have existed before it.

6) After reading this and many other posts, it seems that most die-hard christians make decisions not based on their feeling of what is right or wrong, but based on what the bible says. Atheists think for themselves.

God is infallible. People are fallible. Therefore, being a Christian is the smart choice to make.

7) In 1, 4, and 6, you say the same thing, that being that Atheists can't pity others. Although that is false, I care more about showing you that christianity fits that description very well. Almost every post on this site says that women, children, homosexuals, people of other races, and people who worship other religions are inferior to christians, and therefor should be prosecuted. Not only is that disgustingly stereotypical, it also displays a profound lack of pity and respect for everyone else.

Incorrect. Everything we say, we say out of Love.

8) In response to #5: the philosophical idea of good and evil is based on the human emotions of pleasure and distress. If you cause pleasure, you are deemed good, and if you cause distress, you are deemed bad. Thus, by its very nature, good and evil is highly subjective. The most common universal definition of good is something that causes pleasure to more people than it causes distress to. Being human in and of itself provides for a solid standpoint on the nature of good and evil, as part of humanity is feeling both pleasure and distress. A person with morals is going to want others to feel pleasure too. Note: according to this standard, this organization is evil as it causes pleasure only to the relatively small group of its members, and distress to the rest of the planet.

This is purely subjective. If a large crowd of sadists would get pleasure from torturing a single person to death, would that be morally good? As Christians, we recognise that torturing someone to death is only morally acceptable when God commands it.

9) If you're going to make comments on other religions, as you do in #7, can you at least learn SOMETHING about the religion that you're commenting on? None of the gods spoken of were from pagan religions, and most of the gods you mentioned were not the only ones of their religions. Was your "god" Zeus, Hera, Poseidon, Demeter, Athena, Hestia, Apollo, Artemis, Ares, Aphrodite, Hephaestus, Hermes, and Dionysus all at once? Because if he is, then you are admitting your god has faults, and if not, then you are proving yourself wrong.

All of those gods were imitations of God. There are plenty of people with the name "Lady Gaga" on facebook. Are they all Lady Gaga?

10) Has your "god" ever actually done anything for you?

He has saved me from a life of sin.

What about all the people who live in poverty? Few of them have sinned or done anything unethical, yet their life is about as pleasant as hell.

Wrong twice in a single sentence.
Romans 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
And hell is worse than anything you can possibly imagine.

Most are christian and pray every night

Back this statement up with evidence.

but they get nothing. Nothing from your false god.

That's a lot better than what Job got, but he still loved God.

[Dunce Machine]

Re: Ten points that CRUSH Atheism

The following ten points absolutely destroy Atheism.

#1 Atheists have no mercy or pity for others.
Time and time again history as shown with the Nazis, the Communists, the New Deal, the Spanish Inquisition that atheists will behave in a cruel and callous manner towards thier fellow man.

#2 To an Atheist a natural disaster is just a random event
Only a Christian can understand that when a building collapses in an earthquake that is the hand of God slaying sinners. Atheists are willfully blind to the unconditional tough love of God for His creation. In short Atheists lack pity for those who are killed in these disasters.

#4To an atheists there is no difference between an animal and a human
To an Atheist A pig or a human, an ape or a human, what is the difference? For Atheists they are all products of random chance. If Atheists were true to their beliefs they would be running around naked and tossing feces at each other and eating other people. They lack the compassion for their fellow man to realize animals are just tools placed here for us to use as we see fit.

#5 Only biblical faith offers objective standards of good and evil.
One just has to look at atheists societies like ancient Rome to see they had completely different morality than the Christian society of the West now. Rome lived by a philosophy of might makes right that gave Rome the moral superiority to invade their neighbors. Contrast that with America's war of liberation in Iraq and Mexico in 1848. Christians have the morality to know when their neighbors are evil and need to be destroyed.

#6 Atheists have no reason to feel pity for anyone or anything.
Sure Atheists may feel pity in their hearts of hearts but philosophically they have no reason to. Carving another human being up to them is just like carving a pig.

#7 Throughout human history there have never been any other gods but God.
God is the only God humanity ever had. Sure various confused pagans called God by different names like Thor, Zeus, Angra Mainyu and Kali but that has always been God. The past was not atheists, it Was Christian.

#8 There were false gods, but they were false because they exist within the Universe, not outside it.
No atheist can show us a false god who existed outside the universe so case closed.

#9 Any religion younger than Christianity is just a copy of Christianity.
Since Christianity is the Gold standard of morality all other religions just copy Christian doctrine like Islam. Atheism is younger than Christianity therefor Atheism is a mockery of Christianity.

#10 Only Christianity has ever had the idea of an eternal, infinite creator God.
No one, not the Egyptians, the Meso-Americans or even the Sumerians has a infinite God. Even Atheism doesn't have an infinite creator God.

I await your rebuttals to my points Atheists.

"First of all, this is NOT a debate forum. Please read THIS thread before making an even bigger fool of yourself. "