[gareth the fool]

Re: Hello, I am Tempered.

Are you a Jew? They are weird - they refuse to accept Christ as God and commit the final unforgivable sin of denying the Holy Spirit. Personally, I think it is because they can't get their thick heads around the simple concept of The Holy Trinity being Three-In-One.Are the strictures of man or Of God?

No, I'm not Jewish. From an outside perspective I hope you understand that all religions appear weird, not to you because it *is* your faith, your belief and your life. But if you lived a life without a religion then religion as a foreign concept on your life is a foreign concept, different unto what you live. A lot of the Jewish strictures bear on things like not to eat pork, camel, rabbit or shellfish, that your mother MUST be Jewish in order for you to be Jewish and to study the Torah, the equivalent of the Bible for their faith, amongst other strictures. However in terms of the Holy trinity, Judaism forbids the worship of idols as gods, and as such Jesus is considered a false prophet as he claimed to be the son of god. That is not to say his teachings and sayings were not powerful and generally morally right, that is to say they did not recognise him as a being with the spirit of god - just a man with great teachings. But because of his claimed link to god he was cast as a false prophet as it clashed with the basic tenets of Judaism. *Please note that throughout this I used "god" with a lower case G to accommodate the distinguishment between the Jewish god and Christian God.

Yes, that's right, The Trinity is One... I said that. God uses His Servants (mankind) to do His Most Perfect Writing - He very rarely writes himself (you must have relatives like that) He did write the Commandments and on the Wall of Nebuchadnezzar's palace though.

Yes, I agree with the holy trinity that God himself was present in the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, not that each were representations of him but that each WERE him, and not separate from him. What I don't understand is how it is determined that his Servants were speaking his word and not simply their own words? This is where my doubt comes into play as I can not be certain, having not known the people (impossible to do so) I can not make judgements on their integrity. It's like hearing something out of context, judgement can't be made until you know the whole story - at least for me.

As a consequence, you know that the 10 Commandments (all 613 of them) are actually God's Word. You say it is important to follow God's and not men's Word. If you follow the 10 Commandments, then you obey God and thus worship Him: so what's this crap about rejecting the parts of the Bible that you don't like?

While in Judaism there are 613 commandments, very many of them can be filtered down into a handful, for example they say "Do not have homosexual sexual relations." and "Do not have homosexual sexual relations with your father." and "Not to have homosexual sexual relations with your father's brother." but are all encompassed by the first, which is simply "Do not have homosexual sexual relations." which applies to all homosexuality regardless of who's involved, making the following rules superfluous. I suppose I am rejecting parts of the bible, but not because I don't like them - merely because they were written by men. I know that you said they were the servant's of God but I can't possibly confirm that whole heartedly other than blind faith - which is not in my personality to do. I am filled with curiosity, and must know these things for certain. I will always respect and abide by exactly what God has said and brought to us directly through his own hands. The 10 commandments in Christianity are completely applicable, they are wholly sensible, and are part of anyone's lifestyle.

Proof of God! It's just that savages are unable to grasp the whole message. Are you a savage?

To me, misunderstanding something does not make one a savage. It only takes time and patience for an enlightened man to convey the full message, and then there is no misunderstanding. Only your faith.

But Yahweh is the One True God? Yes? And He has a Son, Jesus? Yes?

To Jewish people Jesus wasn't the son of god, note the lesser G, he was a false prophet. Had he not said that he was the Son of God then his teachings would most likely have been wholly featured in the Torah, as such claims are considered idolatry, a major taboo in Judaism that goes against their scripture.

But if everyone agreed with you, they would be following your faith. Your faith is the Word of Man (i.e. you!). So you are following the Word of Man that you say you should not follow????

I suppose that is true, and I understand a few Free Mason's believe in the same vein as I. However my word is not "Don't believe in religion." I have no words. If someone were to ask me I'd say I believe in a god and that is it. As I understand it proof of god/God's existence is such that the world around us and it's creation is a magnificent thing that isn't probable to have existed by pure chance. It would have to have been created. That is a belief I share with Christianity. There's a difference between following the word of man and following your own words. I don't impress my beliefs upon others or ask that they follow it, it's not fair to do so. Some of you may say that I've done exactly that here, but in truth all I've done is explain my current position, I'm not asking or demanding any of you to change your beliefs at all - quite the opposite. I'm here to find out about your faith and how it came to be in your lives.

Don't bother with that, instead, tell me what you don't believe about God's Direct Words - The 10 Commandments.

1. Thou shallt have no other god's before me.

This is hard for me to word properly. I do believe in god, but not the faith's attached to him. I don't worship God, god or Allah. To me this commandment still applies to my life as in my eyes the god I believe in could very likely be the same God you all believe in.

2.Thou shalt not make thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the waters beneath the earth:Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me, And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me and keep my commandments.

I would not make any idol's of heaven or hell, simply because I can't possibly know what they are like. A few envisage Heaven as pearly gates, sun rays and clouds, other's envisage it as likened unto the Garden of Eden, but these are all people's ideas, you can't know for sure. Even hell is spoke of as a place of eternal torment and damnation but are there walls? Is it an infinite place? What colour is the fire? Is there even any fire? Why should the torment be confined unto what hurts us in this plane of existence? I can't possibly make out an idea of these places and thus can not imagine them. I don't even know if the existence of your souls in either place has a shape.

3. Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain: for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.

I would never do that.

4. Keep the sabbath day to sanctify it, as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee. Six days thou shalt labour, and do all thy work: But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, nor thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thine ox, nor thine ass, nor any of thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates; that thy manservant and thy maidservant may rest as well as thou. And remember that thou wast a servant in the land of Egypt, and that the LORD thy God brought thee out thence through a mighty hand and by a stretched out arm: therefore the LORD thy God commanded thee to keep the sabbath day.

I don't work Sunday's. I widely recognise it as a day of rest.

5. Honour thy father and thy mother, as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee; that thy days may be prolonged, and that it may go well with thee, in the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.

I love my parents regardless of the mistakes they've made in life, who would not?

6.Thou shalt not kill.

Living a military life it is hard to keep in line with this one, although I am an Engineer the machinery and weapons I work with ultimately wind up saving lives, even though their purpose may be death. If killing one man saves 10 other men, is it wrong? This is perhaps the only commandment I have difficulty with. In any other contextual lifestyle this is wholly applicable - to kill is a bad thing. Just in my field of work sometimes the lesser evil of killing can wind up saving people, doing a greater good. A lesser evil to achieve a greater good.

7.Neither shalt thou commit adultery.

I have seen what this has done in other's lives and it is a horrible thing to bear witness to, let alone experience yourself. To do this to another man or woman is a horrible thing indeed.

8. Neither shalt thou steal.

I believe that everything you have should have been earned. If you did not earn it through your own hard toil, blood, sweat and tears - then it has no value to you. It is easy to steal, and hard to earn something - As it should be.

9. Neither shalt thou bear false witness against thy neighbour.

This is tantamount to lying, I would never incriminate anyone in a way that was not just. If someone did nothing wrong, they are innocent. If they are guilty of the crime, then they are guilty. It is simple.

10. Neither shalt thou desire thy neighbour's wife, neither shalt thou covet thy neighbour's house, his field, or his manservant, or his maidservant, his ox, or his ass, or any thing that is thy neighbour's.

The interpretation of this for me is that you should not envy your neighbour for what they have. They most likely earned every part of it through their own toils, and as such falls into the same category of explanation as commandment 8. They worked for what they have, so it is theirs. Likely you must work the same to earn the same, and thus because they have put more work into their lives, does not mean you should envy them because you did not.



In conclusion, I do not have any issue with the 10 commandments, even commandment 6 I understand completely and have no issue with, just my field of work and chosen lifestyle put me at odds with it at times. However I do not take death lightly, nor do I condone killing.

All of the commandments are within basic reason for any human being, with faith or without. They are nearly instilled in everyone regardless of whether they follow religion or not. There are a few exceptions who have been taught by example of depraved lives but then that is not their fault they did not have a good teacher.

[Rev. M. Rodimer]

Re: Hello, I am Tempered.

While in Judaism there are 613 commandments, very many of them can be filtered down into a handful, for example they say "Do not have homosexual sexual relations." and "Do not have homosexual sexual relations with your father." and "Not to have homosexual sexual relations with your father's brother." but are all encompassed by the first, which is simply "Do not have homosexual sexual relations." which applies to all homosexuality regardless of who's involved, making the following rules superfluous.

Except the Bible says no such thing. Maybe you should try reading the Bible before telling us what it says, friend.

1. Thou shallt have no other god's before me.

This is hard for me to word properly. I do believe in god, but not the faith's attached to him. I don't worship God, god or Allah. To me this commandment still applies to my life as in my eyes the god I believe in could very likely be the same God you all believe in.

Nonsense. You have already denied Him. You have your own made-up "nature's god" nonsense, which happens always to agree with you.

2.Thou shalt not make thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the waters beneath the earth:Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me, And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me and keep my commandments.

I would not make any idol's of heaven or hell, simply because I can't possibly know what they are like. A few envisage Heaven as pearly gates, sun rays and clouds, other's envisage it as likened unto the Garden of Eden, but these are all people's ideas, you can't know for sure. Even hell is spoke of as a place of eternal torment and damnation but are there walls? Is it an infinite place? What colour is the fire? Is there even any fire? Why should the torment be confined unto what hurts us in this plane of existence? I can't possibly make out an idea of these places and thus can not imagine them. I don't even know if the existence of your souls in either place has a shape.

3. Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain: for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.

I would never do that.

Do you even know what it means to take His name in vain? Please explain.

4. Keep the sabbath day to sanctify it, as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee. Six days thou shalt labour, and do all thy work: But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, nor thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thine ox, nor thine ass, nor any of thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates; that thy manservant and thy maidservant may rest as well as thou. And remember that thou wast a servant in the land of Egypt, and that the LORD thy God brought thee out thence through a mighty hand and by a stretched out arm: therefore the LORD thy God commanded thee to keep the sabbath day.

I don't work Sunday's. I widely recognise it as a day of rest.

Do you prepare your own food? That is laboring, and is forbidden.

Do you go out to eat? That is permitting someone else to labor, and is forbidden.

So, do you follow this commandment or not?

All of the commandments are within basic reason for any human being, with faith or without. They are nearly instilled in everyone regardless of whether they follow religion or not. There are a few exceptions who have been taught by example of depraved lives but then that is not their fault they did not have a good teacher.

How would God's Sabbath, and not having other gods, and not taking God's name in vain, and not having idols, be "instilled in everyone regardless of whether they follow religion"?

Why, for example, would an atheist (or a Deist) not work on the Sabbath? Why would an atheist put God before other gods, when the atheist believes in no gods? Why would the Deist, when he doesn't believe that Yahweh exists, but instead some unknowable "something"?

[gareth the fool]

Re: Hello, I am Tempered.

Omnibenevolence is not a Biblical concept. It is an invention of lying false-christian pastors who want to tell people happy lies so they will come back each week and give money.

Ahh thank you for clearing that up Reverend. That, I admit, is a mistake on my part and I apologise. Maybe it was a mistake for me to come here, but none the less I have enjoyed it, not because it has upset some of you - far from it. But the argument between you and I so far has been enjoyable for me.

Then don't call your imaginary "greater power" "God". That's the name of a specific deity, the Christian god is called "God". That's why it's capitalized; it's a proper noun. Call the figment of your imagination something else. "Conscience", maybe. "URL="http://muppet.wikia.com/wiki/Mr._Snuffleupagus"]Snuffleupagus[/URL]" would work, as he's supposed to be imaginary.

Sorry, I guess the implication there was lost on me. I referenced my belief of god as God because, to me, not to you, he is a deity and has no name, but seeing as it is just me (as far as I'm aware at any rate) that has considered the topic like I have any name would do for him. I quite like Snuffleupagus though from henceforth it shall be named so.

So when He said that the entirety of the [Old Testament] Law was still in effect, and that someone guilty in one point was guilty of all, you believe Him?

When He said not to fear those with the power to kill, but rather to fear God who has power to kill and cast into Hell, you believe Him?

Your words in other posts conflict with your assertion that you "wholeheartedly follow" Jesus' teachings.

And friend, Jesus has no writings. The earliest Gospel was written several decades after His Resurrection.

First part: Well yes, it's like any set of rules. You break one, you're guilty. You may as well have broken them all because it's not going to change your guilt.

Second part: I believe that has infinite power, to do anything he so pleases, but I don't fear him for it as power is not naturally good or evil, it is....a tool, would be the easiest way to describe it. So far Snuffleupagus hasn't destroyed my life or made me burst into flames so he must have a good head on his shoulders on what to do with his power. I mean he brought me here didn't he?

Third part: Jesus was sound in his teachings. Not one of them is violent or negative. A few are warnings of grave consequence but none order you to destroy a life or something as dire as that.

Fourth part: Sorry, misuse of words there. For any time I have written "writings of Jesus" or something similar, please assume I meant to say his sayings that were written.

So you also do not believe His teaching that He and God are one, and that He would (and did) return.

How does that work with "wholeheartedly following" His teachings?

No that's not what I meant at all. I do believe that he had the spirit of God (in context of your religion) in him, but he was still in a mortal shell. He did die, and he rose again, but I assume he is dead now of natural causes perhaps - he was living in a human body, and although his power is infinite, if his purpose on Earth was not finished he would still be here - although it's impossible to say that he's not still here though. That does not mean to me God is dead at all, merely that he had his time on earth and spent it achieving what he came here to do, and now is back in his usual residence. So I do believe the holy trinity, all aspects. That he is the father of all creation, infinite in itself with no limits, that he is the son, Jesus, that he is the spirit - that which passed from his existence as God to his existence as his son Jesus. If I've misunderstood any of the holy trinity, please update me.

[Rev. M. Rodimer]

Re: Hello, I am Tempered.

First part: Well yes, it's like any set of rules. You break one, you're guilty. You may as well have broken them all because it's not going to change your guilt.

Second part: I believe that has infinite power, to do anything he so pleases, but I don't fear him for it as power is not naturally good or evil, it is....a tool, would be the easiest way to describe it. So far Snuffleupagus hasn't destroyed my life or made me burst into flames so he must have a good head on his shoulders on what to do with his power. I mean he brought me here didn't he?

Third part: Jesus was sound in his teachings. Not one of them is violent or negative. A few are warnings of grave consequence but none order you to destroy a life or something as dire as that.

Fourth part: Sorry, misuse of words there. For any time I have written "writings of Jesus" or something similar, please assume I meant to say his sayings that were written.

Your first and third parts conflict.

Jesus said that all of the Law is still in effect. That includes stoning homosexuals and adulterers like Newt Gingrich to death. That includes exterminating anyone who attempts to lead Christians from their faith to any other, like Richard Dawkins or Tom Cruise.

But why, since you are a follower of the unknowable Snuffleupagus, do you care what the Bible says? You don't believe in God, so why would His Word matter at all to you?

This makes no sense to me. You might as well be a Hindu saying you wholeheartedly follow the Quran.

[gareth the fool]

Re: Hello, I am Tempered.

Except the Bible says no such thing. Maybe you should try reading the Bible before telling us what it says, friend.

That was in response to Ezekiel Bathfire, who I think proposed the question as if I were Jewish, as he said 613 commandments, which appears in the Torah, not the Bible. What I said was not in reference to the Bible, but he Torah instead.

Nonsense. You have already denied Him. You have your own made-up "nature's god" nonsense, which happens always to agree with you.

Theoretically, and philosophically - and I hope this doesn't offend you - but consider the possibility that my Snuffleupagus is the same as your God. Like how you might know someone, you may know some guy called Jim as a normal guy, but to someone else he may be a motorcycling Christian rock star. They're not two different people, they're both Jim just with different personal perspectives for you and the other person. Again, I'm not trying to offend here, but it is my consideration that perhaps the god I believe relates or is even the same as a good for a religion. It's like if I had been born in a place that has no religion and stumbled upon god in my own way there, and then someone else came to where I was and told me of Christianity's God and my thoughts are that they are possibly one and the same.

Do you even know what it means to take His name in vain? Please explain.

To me it means not to use his name as a curse word, in foul language, or in a negative context. Like "Snufleupagus damn it!" or saying that he is at fault for something, or excusing yourself by saying it's god's fault. By definition an omnipotent god can't be at fault for anything.

Do you prepare your own food? That is laboring, and is forbidden.

Do you go out to eat? That is permitting someone else to labor, and is forbidden.

So, do you follow this commandment or not?

Hmm in this context you are right, that I don't follow it. I do prepare my own food but only because it doesn't dawn on me that it *is* work. It's simply life. If you're hungry, you make food. I could just as easily prepare it the day before. Mostly what I said stemmed from the fact that where I am Sunday is recognised as a day off, although unofficially written so, it is a general consensus.

How would God's Sabbath, and not having other gods, and not taking God's name in vain, and not having idols, be "instilled in everyone regardless of whether they follow religion"?

Why, for example, would an atheist (or a Deist) not work on the Sabbath? Why would an atheist put God before other gods, when the atheist believes in no gods? Why would the Deist, when he doesn't believe that Yahweh exists, but instead some unknowable "something"?

Well as said above, Sunday, the Sabbath day is usually a day off, although in context of what you said it's not usually taken so literally as "NO WORK". Even Catholic's and Protestant's over here will often have Sunday Roasts with their families. In the sense that you put it in, I suppose that's not abided by. I hadn't considered that perspective. As for not taking God's name in vain, if you didn't have a religion then the word "God" has no meaning to it, it wouldn't have a place in your vocabulary. If you followed a religion other than Christianity then your god is equally as held in reverence so why would you take his name in vain then? Even Hinduism gets away with it, saying that although they have a multitude of gods they are not SEPARATE. They are representations in parts of their supreme being, a divine being that encompasses each of them.

Why would someone with no religion (or a religion with no such concepts) equally have idol's depicting heaven, hell, god, God, Allah, Snuffleupagus, ad infinitum when they have no meaning to them. It would be like putting up a small statue of Vishnu in your home. To someone with the religion that follows it, it's a significant symbol. To you it's just a funny statue. It has no relevance to your religion at all, nor any weight or meaning behind it except what you might personally put on it, like if it had sentimental value as remembrance of you perhaps travelling to India. If you, however, KNEW it was a statue of a god featured in Hinduism you would not have it. Everything is about meaning to other people. To some it's a cool statue, to some it's a blasphemous piece of waste. It's like the video I saw on one of the threads here about the JFK airport being entirely phallic. You can choose to see what you want to see. You can either think to yourself "It looks like a phallus, it must be because they MADE it purposefully to look like one, with sinister and malicious intent." Or you can think it's just the way it is because it made sense, and that it's appearance of being phallic is just entirely coincidental and wasn't in mind at all in it's creation. Of course it's going to be what crosses your mind but it doesn't make it true. It's an assumption, not fact.


An atheist wouldn't put any god before anything. They have no god. They don't recognise any god. To them, all gods are imaginary and have no substance so to them it's the same as you putting my imaginary god up against your real God. But for them it's the idea of including something imaginary in their real lives.

[Ezekiel Bathfire]

Re: Hello, I am Tempered.

Thank you for your reply. I am concerned for your soul and shall pray for you.

Bathfire: "But if everyone agreed with you, they would be following your faith. Your faith is the Word of Man (i.e. you!). So you are following the Word of Man that you say you should not follow????"
Tempered: "I suppose that is true."

There is only one conclusion here: You have invented your own god.
There is no proof of his existence,
If you ever ceased to believe in him nothing would befall you
If he weren't there nothing would be different.
Of necessity, that god must be false.
As that god is personal and private to you, its opinions are yours (you cannot disagree with yourself.)
You worship the god you made in your image - you worship yourself.
Or is your god more like an old teddybear, a comfort and a reminder of happier days? An uncritical but imaginary friend? An explanation for what you cannot understand?

Now, it strikes me that this is like having a ready made Cadillac Escalade sitting in your garage (God) but deciding instead to make an SUV yourself out of recycled parts from a junk yard (your god).

Face it, you claim that your god has made the universe, when it is clear that God did that job 6,000 years ago. Tell me how your god did this? Is he all powerful as God is? Can the two co-exist? Are you or your god an enemy of God?

[gareth the fool]

Re: Hello, I am Tempered.

Your first and third parts conflict.

Jesus said that all of the Law is still in effect. That includes stoning homosexuals and adulterers like Newt Gingrich to death. That includes exterminating anyone who attempts to lead Christians from their faith to any other, like Richard Dawkins or Tom Cruise.

But why, since you are a follower of the unknowable Snuffleupagus, do you care what the Bible says? You don't believe in God, so why would His Word matter at all to you?

This makes no sense to me. You might as well be a Hindu saying you wholeheartedly follow the Quran.

In Leviticus it says that any who commit homosexuality have performed abomination and ought to be put to the death.

In the 10 commandments it says "Thou shallt not kill."

It does not say "Thou shallt not kill anyone except for homosexuals."
It just says "Thou shallt not kill." No exceptions.

And seeing as that part is Moses claiming God is speaking through him, or to him and having him convey his message, then I can only assume that either Moses was lying, or the 10 commandments were a lie, as God said "Thou shallt not kill." and was then saying something conflicting. And God does not conflict with himself. Ever. He says what he says and that is it. I choose to believe that the 10 commandments are the true words of God, not what Moses the man said to the people. This is what I mean by trusting the word of God and not the word of Men. If I came to you and told you that God speaks through me, and that leeks must be burned in a great pyre, would you believe me or would you cast doubt on it? It is not enough for a man to simply say that God speaks through you for me. You can ultimately say anything you like, but without proof. Even the burning bush could have been fabricated by Moses, a lie to give himself credibility. So much information is lost through time that it's nigh impossible to prove much of it except for Jesus' existence, and through personal observation of the world around you, the existence of god, God, Allah, Vishnu, Snuffleupagus (whichever applies).


Just because I don't follow the bible, it does not mean I do not want to read it, know it's meaning and understand it fully. Just because I am not Christian does not mean I can not gain any knowledge through it, or it's discussion here. Do you think that wrong of me?

[Rev. M. Rodimer]

Re: Hello, I am Tempered.

That was in response to Ezekiel Bathfire, who I think proposed the question as if I were Jewish, as he said 613 commandments, which appears in the Torah, not the Bible. What I said was not in reference to the Bible, but he Torah instead.

Now I know you have absolutely no clue what you're talking about.

The Torah is the first five books of the Bible.

And at no point does the Bible (or the Torah) say "don't have homosexual relations with your father, and don't have homosexual relations with your brother, and don't have homosexual relations with your neighbor".

In fact, at no point does the Bible direct us not to have homosexual relations at all.

It directs us to execute anyone who has homosexual relations.

Theoretically, and philosophically - and I hope this doesn't offend you - but consider the possibility that my Snuffleupagus is the same as your God. Like how you might know someone, you may know some guy called Jim as a normal guy, but to someone else he may be a motorcycling Christian rock star. They're not two different people, they're both Jim just with different personal perspectives for you and the other person. Again, I'm not trying to offend here, but it is my consideration that perhaps the god I believe relates or is even the same as a good for a religion. It's like if I had been born in a place that has no religion and stumbled upon god in my own way there, and then someone else came to where I was and told me of Christianity's God and my thoughts are that they are possibly one and the same.

Except he's not. You made yours up because you can't comprehend the idea of the universe being without inherent meaning; therefore, you need a god of some sort, but not one that actually commands you to do or not do things (as God does). So, you rejected God, and made up Snuffleupagus to fill the void in your life.

At least atheists have the courage to live life without making up a deity.

To me it means not to use his name as a curse word, in foul language, or in a negative context. Like "Snufleupagus damn it!" or saying that he is at fault for something, or excusing yourself by saying it's god's fault. By definition an omnipotent god can't be at fault for anything.

An omnipotent god, by definition, is responsible for everything, either through commission or omission.

A child dies of dysentery? God could have prevented it, but chose not to. Or, He caused it. Pick one. Either way, it was God's Will that the child poo itself to death.

Hmm in this context you are right, that I don't follow it. I do prepare my own food but only because it doesn't dawn on me that it *is* work. It's simply life. If you're hungry, you make food.

You also build fires, yes? Part of life?

Numbers 15:32-36

32 And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day.

33 And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron, and unto all the congregation.

34 And they put him in ward, because it was not declared what should be done to him.

35 And the LORD said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp.

36 And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the LORD commanded Moses.

Do bear in mind that Numbers is the fourth book of the Bible, therefore within the Torah you so respect.

An atheist wouldn't put any god before anything. They have no god. They don't recognise any god. To them, all gods are imaginary and have no substance so to them it's the same as you putting my imaginary god up against your real God. But for them it's the idea of including something imaginary in their real lives.

An atheist puts his lack of faith before God. Therefore, like you, atheists will be executed under Biblical Law once it is instituted.

Unless, of course, you get right with God before then.

[gareth the fool]

Re: Hello, I am Tempered.

Thank you for your reply. I am concerned for your soul and shall pray for you.

Bathfire: "But if everyone agreed with you, they would be following your faith. Your faith is the Word of Man (i.e. you!). So you are following the Word of Man that you say you should not follow????"
Tempered: "I suppose that is true."

There is only one conclusion here: You have invented your own god.
There is no proof of his existence,
If you ever ceased to believe in him nothing would befall you
If he weren't there nothing would be different.
Of necessity, that god must be false.
As that god is personal and private to you, its opinions are yours (you cannot disagree with yourself.)
You worship the god you made in your image - you worship yourself.
Or is your god more like an old teddybear, a comfort and a reminder of happier days? An uncritical but imaginary friend? An explanation for what you cannot understand?

Now, it strikes me that this is like having a ready made Cadillac Escalade sitting in your garage (God) but deciding instead to make an SUV yourself out of recycled parts from a junk yard (your god).

Face it, you claim that your god has made the universe, when it is clear that God did that job 6,000 years ago. Tell me how your god did this? Is he all powerful as God is? Can the two co-exist? Are you or your god an enemy of God?

There's many things my Snuffleupagus could be. Thing's I can't possibly explain having, like a conscience. How can I explain it's existence? Mayhaps it is my very own god talking to me. Directing me away from wrong doings and helping me be a good person. I do agree on your analogy of the Escalade and junk yard SUV. I have rejected that which was made before me in order to construct something myself. But if I do construct it myself then it will most likely meet my own expectations and needs, which is a fault of it. But then again, maybe my conscience will make it so it is not? I don't fully understand it myself, but did the disciples of Jesus at first? I am not putting myself on the same level akin with them, I am just saying that my situation right now is not too far different from what they were in at the very beginning, whatever comes of what I'm doing now, whether it's nothing or something.

The only proof of his existence I can conceive of is that the world around me simply can not be created by chance, not one part of it. If I ever ceased to believe in him I do not know what would happen, as it isn't possible for me to lose my belief in him because the world around me is a constant reminder of his existence. How would I know if the world around me would be any different without him? Snuffleupagus has always been there, it just took me time to see it.

As to whether Snuffleupagus' oppinions are my own, perhaps it is the other way around? That my oppinions are formed off of what Snuffleupagus has shown me through my conscience.

Snuffleupagus also had no image up until the point Reverend Rodimer suggested the Muppets character as a safe reference to him while I'm here. He still doesn't ultimately have a form but now that I found it amusing that my god might look like Snuffleupagus the image is stuck in my mind .


It is entirely possible Snuffleupagus is my mind constructing something that is reason for everything around me, and that he is entirely fictional. I am well aware of that possibility but it does not mean I believe it. It's the same as your belief you reason God must exist because of the world around you and the Bible itself. But if the Bible was never written, perhaps you would be in the same position as I am now? Believing there is a god but without the depth the Bible gives?

I can not claim that my god created the universe, I do not know my god. He might be omnipotent and infinite in power like your God. He might be have no more power than to whisper into my conscience. I do not know, I can't possibly know unless Snuffleupagus appears before me. It's an unquantified value. For you it is quantified (I use this word loosely because infinity is not a quantity, it is by nature unquantified because it has no set magnitude) because of the Bible and it's works. You have a starting value. I don't. If Snuffleupagus had workings as vast as the Bible maybe he would have. But obviously, he doesn't.


It does however make me happy that you pray for my soul. Regardless of the diversity between our beliefs I do appreciate it's sentiment, and it is a friendly gesture that is not lost on me. In particular I have a great deal of respect for you and what you have said Mr. Bathfire, even if you do not for what I have said (although there is not implication that you do not, I just feel it correct to write that, to cover my bases so to speak.).

[Rev. M. Rodimer]

Re: Hello, I am Tempered.

There's many things my Snuffleupagus could be. Thing's I can't possibly explain having, like a conscience . . .

The only proof of his existence I can conceive of is that the world around me simply can not be created by chance, not one part of it . . .

Now it all makes sense! You worship "the god of the gaps".

Whatever you do not understand is Snuffleupagus.

You don't understand how humans, who according to atheists "evolved" to be hard-wired to cooperate, have a conscience. Therefore, Snuffleupagus.

You don't understand how God created the universe in 6 days. Therefore, Snuffleupagus.

You don't understand laws of probability when you narrowly avoid an accident. Therefore, Snuffleupagus.

The Snuffleupagus of the gaps is just your way of avoiding having to acknowledge your own ignorance, and deal with the uncertainty left when you remove Snuffleupagus.

Just switch out "Aliens" for "Snuffleupagus", and you're just like this loser:



Wouldn't it make much more sense to follow God, who is always there, no matter what we do or do not understand, than to "follow" your ever-shrinking Snuffleupagus, who wastes away becoming more withered and pathetic as you learn more and more about the universe and humanity?

[gareth the fool]

Re: Hello, I am Tempered.

Now I know you have absolutely no clue what you're talking about.

The Torah is the first five books of the Bible.

And at no point does the Bible (or the Torah) say "don't have homosexual relations with your father, and don't have homosexual relations with your brother, and don't have homosexual relations with your neighbor".

In fact, at no point does the Bible direct us not to have homosexual relations at all.

It directs us to execute anyone who has homosexual relations.


Except he's not. You made yours up because you can't comprehend the idea of the universe being without inherent meaning; therefore, you need a god of some sort, but not one that actually commands you to do or not do things (as God does). So, you rejected God, and made up Snuffleupagus to fill the void in your life.

At least atheists have the courage to live life without making up a deity.

An omnipotent god, by definition, is responsible for everything, either through commission or omission.

A child dies of dysentery? God could have prevented it, but chose not to. Or, He caused it. Pick one. Either way, it was God's Will that the child poo itself to death.

You also build fires, yes? Part of life?

Numbers 15:32-36
Do bear in mind that Numbers is the fourth book of the Bible, therefore within the Torah you so respect.

An atheist puts his lack of faith before God. Therefore, like you, atheists will be executed under Biblical Law once it is instituted.

Unless, of course, you get right with God before then.

If God came down and told me himself, so that I had personal and irrefutable proof of his existence, that he exists and that the bible is his entire and full will, then I would absolutely follow it. However I have no confirmation that your God DOES exist merely that *a* god exists.


When I talked about the 613 commandments, I was speaking of Judaism, in which there are 613 commandments. http://www.chabad.org/library/articl...13-Mitzvot.htm if you can muster the effort to read through them all you may see my point that some of the rules are superfluous and covered with previous rules, like my prior examples. I did not say it was part of the Torah.

So the bible directs you to kill anyone with homosexual relations, but also commands you "Thou shallt not kill". This is a contradiction, in that if you kill anyone who has had a homosexual relation you have violated one of the 10 commandments, which makes you as guilty as if you had broken all 10 of them, as established in one of your previous posts.

If a child dies of dysentry, it may have had purpose to it. It may have raised awareness of poor health conditions, and thus had a positive effect on that environment, improving sanitation and hygiene. There are a myriad of possible reasons why that child died of dysentry, as such it does mean god is being vindictive and just going "Here you go have some dysentry." it most likely had a very real purpose and effect even if it's not apparent to us.


In truth I don't know if I'll ever get right with a religion. There's too many holes that can't be filled because I wasn't around during the time these things were happening. But that does not mean there is no chance either. I can not be omnipotent, so my future is entirely masked and thus anything could happen. I may even become Pope one day *joke*. I can't possibly know.

[Rev. M. Rodimer]

Re: Hello, I am Tempered.

If God came down and told me himself, so that I had personal and irrefutable proof of his existence, that he exists and that the bible is his entire and full will, then I would absolutely follow it. However I have no confirmation that your God DOES exist merely that *a* god exists.

You have no evidence that "a" god exists. As we've already established above, you have created your own Snuffleupagus-of-the-gaps to explain everything you don't understand. That's it.

If God appeared and told you something Himself, you would not have faith in Him. You would have knowledge. Faith is required only when you do not have knowledge.

That's the point.

When I talked about the 613 commandments, I was speaking of Judaism, in which there are 613 commandments. http://www.chabad.org/library/articl...13-Mitzvot.htm if you can muster the effort to read through them all you may see my point that some of the rules are superfluous and covered with previous rules, like my prior examples. I did not say it was part of the Torah.

But they are.

You said you followed the Torah, not the Bible. The Torah is a subset of the Bible. You have no clue whatsoever what you are talking about.

So the bible directs you to kill anyone with homosexual relations, but also commands you "Thou shallt not kill". This is a contradiction, in that if you kill anyone who has had a homosexual relation you have violated one of the 10 commandments, which makes you as guilty as if you had broken all 10 of them, as established in one of your previous posts.

No, it is not. God does not contradict Himself.

There is a difference between killing someone in a criminal sense, and executing someone as directed by God. I'm sorry you are unable to comprehend the difference.

If a child dies of dysentry, it may have had purpose to it. It may have raised awareness of poor health conditions, and thus had a positive effect on that environment, improving sanitation and hygiene. There are a myriad of possible reasons why that child died of dysentry, as such it does mean god is being vindictive and just going "Here you go have some dysentry." it most likely had a very real purpose and effect even if it's not apparent to us.

Or maybe God had another bet going with Satan, as in the Book of Job, where God allowed Satan to kill off Job's slaves, and cattle, and entire family, and torment him with boils, all to prove to Satan that Job wouldn't abandon Him.

But I do think it mighty disturbing that you think God would allow a little baby to slowly and painfully shit itself to death to teach others a lesson . . . particularly when most of them die unnoticed in their Third World hell-holes.

What kind of a sick monster is this Snuffleupagus of yours, that he'd do such a disgusting thing to a baby? That's cruel and horrible.

[gareth the fool]

Re: Hello, I am Tempered.

Now it all makes sense! You worship "the god of the gaps".

Whatever you do not understand is Snuffleupagus.

You don't understand how humans, who according to atheists "evolved" to be hard-wired to cooperate, have a conscience. Therefore, Snuffleupagus.

You don't understand how God created the universe in 6 days. Therefore, Snuffleupagus.

You don't understand laws of probability when you narrowly avoid an accident. Therefore, Snuffleupagus.

The Snuffleupagus of the gaps is just your way of avoiding having to acknowledge your own ignorance, and deal with the uncertainty left when you remove Snuffleupagus.

Just switch out "Aliens" for "Snuffleupagus", and you're just like this loser:



Wouldn't it make much more sense to follow God, who is always there, no matter what we do or do not understand, than to "follow" your ever-shrinking Snuffleupagus, who wastes away becoming more withered and pathetic as you learn more and more about the universe and humanity?

I don't think Snuffleupagus could ever wither away like you've said. There is always going to be a "Why?". Some things we can't answer will have a "Why?" even things we can, have and will answer will break way to more "Why?". My Snuffleupagus isn't a construct to explain anything, in reality he is a construct to explain that he was or is still here.

I am very familiar with the rule of probabilities, it's part of my work. Although I get the gist of it, that if there is something I can't explain then Snuffleupagus is responsible or the cause of it. That's not really the case. Like if a RPG explodes in the air before it's even near me, I don't think "Snuffleupagus launched that RPG" or "Snuffleupagus made that RPG miss me." I acknowledge that there is a chance of those things happening. But then again it's not impossible that Snuffleupagus had a hand in it. But hang on just one minute, You believe God has a plan for everyone, one that can't be changed - therefore to you there is no probability in life, everything is fixed. Everything will happen, and has technically already happened because of it's fixed state. Therefore you shouldn't believe in probability either


Well, why do you think human's have a conscience? Please elaborate on that section, I can't understand it's purpose to be honest. If your conscience is there to direct you in the right direction or steer you from bad, why doesn't the conscience just have control of you? What's the point in having an inner monologue that weighs options on moral grounds when it could just make the choice for you? Why is it not a completely integrated part of you that literally directs you? That doesn't just *think* about things for you?


Ultimately how can you understand why God created the universe in 6 days. Ask yourself the question why. Then once you have that answer, ask yourself why again. For each answer you come up with there will always be another why waiting, not just because this is a facetious exercise, but because there is always a why. Eventually you'll come upon a why that you can't possibly answer.

And then your answer may just be "Why not?".

[gareth the fool]

Re: Hello, I am Tempered.

If God appeared and told you something Himself, you would not have faith in Him. You would have knowledge. Faith is required only when you do not have knowledge.

That is ultimately a VERY good point, but knowledge can lead to Faith too. If I knew that your God exists for certain 100% without any shadow of a doubt, then I'd know that instead of being Snuffleupagus it'd be God. Do you get my meaning? Everything Snuffleupagus means to me now, how ingrained he is, would be transferred to God, Snuffleupagus now has a real name (As Snuffleupagus is just a placeholder to avoid confusion) and a confirmed existence for me. Thus the Bible is completely and irrefutably proven to me to be true. Thus, I have Faith. Faith isn't something you can only have without knowledge, you can have faith in someone to perform a task while knowing they're perfectly capable of performing it in the first place. Having knowledge and Faith is entirely possible.

You said you followed the Torah, not the Bible. The Torah is a subset of the Bible. You have no clue whatsoever what you are talking about.

No it's not what I said at all, at least not to my recollection. Could you quote and repost me on this?

No, it is not. God does not contradict Himself.

There is a difference between killing someone in a criminal sense, and executing someone as directed by God. I'm sorry you are unable to comprehend the difference.

Earlier you rebuked me for not taking the literal meaning of a passage, in a warning not to be hypocritical. Now you are asking me not take a commandment literally.

Do you deny that Thou shallt not kill is not a sweeping statement across all killing? I'm a military man, whether being ordered to kill someone or not does not come into it. At the end of the day I have killed, I chose to kill. It wasn't God's choice to stone that man, it was the people's. He may have issued his command there but it was their choice. And they are all likely burning in Hell for it, for violating one of the ten commandments, regardless of who ordered it.

What kind of a sick monster is this Snuffleupagus of yours, that he'd do such a disgusting thing to a baby? That's cruel and horrible.

Hey don't let my imaginary god take the entire blame, it could just as equally be your God having another bet going with Satan like you suggested, or maybe did it to make other people more aware. We've established that your God isn't wholly good, so it's just as likely that your god is as capable of being as cruel and horrible as you imply mine is.

[gareth the fool]

Re: Hello, I am Tempered.

It wasn't God's choice to stone that man, it was the people's. He may have issued his command there but it was their choice. And they are all likely burning in Hell for it, for violating one of the ten commandments, regardless of who ordered it.

So from this.....If you don't kill a homosexual, you've violated a command from God. If you do kill a homosexual, you've also violated a command from God. Either way, you're going to Hell. So maybe it's best to never meet a Homosexual for you.