Was communism a success? A debate with Peter Krackpot.

[Basilissa]

Not really, the ottomans were already declining by 1683. The real problem started 1648 with Cossack rebellion in the Ukraine that brought Russia in and then economic system that relied too heavily on serfs based agriculture— didn’t adapt well to issues in the late 17th and early 18th centuries with environmental pressures. So, it saw a terrible decline internally while its neighbors grew. Fredrick the great and the smelled the stench of death in the air for Poland and it was all over...

My point being, dear Piotrek, that Poles did not help themselves by rescuing one of the three countries that soon thereafter made Poland disappear from the political map of Europe for over a century.

Actually, Marxist regimes have a good track record until Capitalists intervene.

Would you care to provide some examples?... Because from what I know, the communist ideal seems to thrive exclusively in hunting and gathering societies, but once humans put their hands on private property (thanks to the advent of animal husbandry and agriculture), there's no turning back!

But, I am socialist not a Marxist and anarchy-syndicalist to boot. So, we want a bottom up non hierarchical formation of the economy and government...

Ah, the buzz word of the day: heterarchy. Again, that works quite excellently in small scale hunting-gathering societies, or in unusually egalitarian (and also small scale) agricultural societies. Once we get to state societies, though, there's no turning back: history shows that even when states die, their remnants just get absorbed by new state societies.

The only recent example of heterarchy that I can think of is the Zapatista movement - which seems to have fizzled out on its own because it's no match for the Mexican state. I suppose you could try to argue that Bolivian MAS (with its supporting structures of workers' and peasants' unions) is supposed to have a Zapatista-like bottom up structure, but if you have seen the news recently, it's a complete mess, too.

[Basilissa]

Re: (Jews...) Now: Peter Kropotkin's introduction thread

The Pentateuch is pretty funny... i love all the unclean rituals. Then the New Testament is pretty good for fortune cookie logic. I went to catholic school... but I am an atheist since 7...

I take your silence on my questions as you admitting that Marxist regimes do not have a good track record at all, and that heterarchies are no match for the power of the state. In other words, that anarchism is a cute utopia that has no chance of happening.

[PeterCrackhead]

Re: (Jews...) Now: Peter Kropotkin's introduction thread

I take your silence on my questions as you admitting that Marxist regimes do not have a good track record at all, and that heterarchies are no match for the power of the state. In other words, that anarchism is a cute utopia that has no chance of happening.

Actually, I deem them boring.

But if we must the Soviet Union went from utter destruction in 1945 to space in 1961. China went from abject poverty in the 1900’s-1970’s to today’s command economy success of today.
Then you have the success of the heterarchy of Mondragon in Spain or the 800+ cooperatives that exist in America...

Command economies can be very successful. And so can cooperative systems. The questions are who are systems working for? Capitalism isn’t failing it is doing what it claims making capital grow at the expense of the general population.

[Basilissa]

Re: (Jews...) Now: Peter Kropotkin's introduction thread

Actually, I deem them boring.

But if we must

Well, you started it!

the Soviet Union went from utter destruction in 1945 to space in 1961.

And you really think it was the capitalist system's meddling into Soviet affairs that eventually destroyed that system? Not the 1001 internal problems? If you want, I can build up a decent argumentation to support the thesis that the race to the Moon is one of the important factors that destroyed USSR (putting so much of their resources into something as useless as sending a dog to die in space, instead of investing in things that actually bring profit).

China went from abject poverty in the 1900’s-1970’s to today’s command economy success of today.

You can describe the Chinese system as "state's capitalism," or "slavery based," but the point is that this country became wildly successful once it discarded "pure" communism and accepted aspects of capitalism. The date you provide neatly coincides with Nixon's "opening of" China - so we agree that capitalist meddling is what made China great.

Then you have the success of the heterarchy of Mondragon in Spain or the 800+ cooperatives that exist in America...

Please note that both exist within states rather than instead of states - big difference from the anarchist dream. So we can agree that heterarchies work well in small-scale societies but cannot replace complex state societies.

Command economies can be very successful. And so can cooperative systems. The questions are who are systems working for? Capitalism isn’t failing it is doing what it claims making capital grow at the expense of the general population.

What's the alternative? The Gulag Archipelago? At least in capitalism, people cling to the futile dream of a better future. Communism takes away that dream (even though about the same percentage of people still has the possibility to pull themselves by the bootstraps via bribery, extortion, and other lucrative aspects of working for the state apparatus).

Ever heard of a PGR? These show you that cooperatives imposed by someone are doomed to failed. In capitalist societies, cooperatives can survive is because their membership is voluntary, and the members actually care about their co-op.

[Ezekiel Bathfire]

Re: Jews will be Joos I guess. Netanyahu charged with bribery

Workers of the world Unite.

I take it that you are unemployed and on welfare.

[Jeb Stuart Thurmond]

Re: (Jews...) Now: Peter Kropotkin's introduction thread

the Soviet Union went from utter destruction

It was "utterly destroyed" because of Communist misrule. Then it got masses of handouts from capitalist countries ("lend-lease" which was never repaid) and pillaged all of Eastern Europe. Which brings us to:

to space in 1961.

They built ICBMs with looted technology because mass-murder weapons were their top priority. Meanwhile ordinary people went from peasant huts in 1917 to the same huts in 1992. The only consumer good that the USSR produced reliably was vodka.

Meanwhile South Korea went from a more complete total destruction in the 1950's to the Gangam-style decadence of today without looting or handouts. Japan went from ashes to robot-cafes in the same time. Neither country has a drop of oil, by the way.

China went from abject poverty in the 1900’s-1970’s

By 1979 China had been communist for 30 years. "Abject poverty" is an understatement for famines that killed more people than the holocaust.

Your arguments are basically "You know how you hired me as a babysitter and all the children died and the house burned down? Well, the insurance company gave me a new house and I abducted the neighbors kids! That's why all the other babysitters are horrible and I'm the only good one!"

[Jeb Stuart Thurmond]

Re: (Jews...) Now: Peter Kropotkin's introduction thread

You seem to base your worldview on reading a bunch of people's brainfarts and saying "these guys sound pretty smart, let's overthrow everything and put their brainfarts into action."

This is not how science works. Science is more difficult. Economic science - the dismal science - is a lot more boring than reading someone's speculations and marveling at how clever they sound. If you think that economic science is not scientific enough for you, then how about the left start a true economic science, with more scientific rigor?

But it's not about that.

The anarchist stone-age was not an eco-utopia of wisdom and restraint, stone age people drove to extinction half the species of large animals they came across. Maybe they were wise enough to know what was happening, but they could not stop the slaughter with their primitive political and economic systems. The same primitive systems you are trying to bring back.



In the stone age technology barely ever advanced at all. Stuff like rope took forever to be invented, and forever to spread. Nerds who invented stuff got no respect. You had to be a jock or a cheerleader. They probably knew that they should invent more stuff. They probably knew that they needed to support the nerds who invent stuff. But they couldn't have research and development departments with their primate political and economic systems. The same primitive systems you are trying to bring back.

[Jeb Stuart Thurmond]

Re: (Jews...) Now: Peter Kropotkin's introduction thread

the race to the Moon is one of the important factors that destroyed USSR (putting so much of their resources into something as useless as sending a dog to die in space

It was the communists who first noticed that one death is a tragedy, and one million deaths is a statistic. Well, here's that one death:

[handmaiden]

Re: (Jews...) Now: Peter Kropotkin's introduction thread

It was the communists who first noticed that one death is a tragedy, and one million deaths is a statistic. Well, here's that one death:

Wait. Did something happen to the dog?

[Basilissa]

Re: (Jews...) Now: Peter Kropotkin's introduction thread

Wait. Did something happen to the dog?

It died 7 hours after lift off, possibly because of overheating and stress. At least it was a somewhat quick death rather than dying of thirst/starvation (she had no food aboard and there were no plans to bring her back to earth).

It's nothing when you think about Holodomor (don't click if you just ate), but some people react with more empathy when they hear about one dog's suffering, than when they hear about millions of peoples' suffering.

[PeterCrackhead]

Re: (Jews...) Now: Peter Kropotkin's introduction thread

It died 7 hours after lift off, possibly because of overheating and stress. At least it was a somewhat quick death rather than dying of thirst/starvation (she had no food aboard and there were no plans to bring her back to earth).

It's nothing when you think about Holodomor (don't click if you just ate), but some people react with more empathy when they hear about one dog's suffering, than when they hear about millions of peoples' suffering.

Or this one under the capitalists:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Famine_(Ireland)

Don’t forget the Congo under Belgium ....

[Basilissa]

Re: (Jews...) Now: Peter Kropotkin's introduction thread

Or this one under the capitalists:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Famine_(Ireland)

Are you saying that potato bugs were sent by the capitalists to destroy the Irish?

Because in case of Holodomor, the government came and took the crops, not leaving enough to eat nor to sow. It was a 100% preventable, man-made, well planned and flawlessly executed operation which purpose was to break the Ukrainian farmers.

[PeterCrackhead]

Re: (Jews...) Now: Peter Kropotkin's introduction thread

Are you saying that potato bugs were sent by the capitalists to destroy the Irish?

Because in case of Holodomor, the government came and took the crops, not leaving enough to eat nor to sow. It was a 100% preventable, man-made, well planned and flawlessly executed operation which purpose was to break the Ukrainian farmers.

No, I am saying the response to the potato famine was their fault. They did the same things the Russians did. And Belgium’s killed 10-12 million Congolese to improve exports...

[handmaiden]

Re: (Jews...) Now: Peter Kropotkin's introduction thread

It died 7 hours after lift off, possibly because of overheating and stress. At least it was a somewhat quick death rather than dying of thirst/starvation (she had no food aboard and there were no plans to bring her back to earth).

It's nothing when you think about Holodomor (don't click if you just ate), but some people react with more empathy when they hear about one dog's suffering, than when they hear about millions of peoples' suffering.

I wouldn't dare. I have to go into my prayer closet and ask Jesus to comfort me about the dog.

[PeterCrackhead]

Re: (Jews...) Now: Peter Kropotkin's introduction thread

I wouldn't dare. I have to go into my prayer closet and ask Jesus to comfort me about the dog.

You might need a stress relieving spanking from your HOH...