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Re: How to defend your faith and destroy atheism in one hit
Wow. What a welcome I've had to the forum. I've been "cited" by Pastor Ezekiel for the offense of "going yappity yap yap yappity", had my profile name changed to Irrational Loser, and told I'm making up the word "presupposition" which can be looked up in any dictionary, AND is just an extension of the very same word Pim Pendergast used when he started this thread in 2013.
So Cranky Old man - Get a dictionary. Presuppose and presupposition are in fact words in the English language and your ignorance of that fact doesn't make it less true.
John Creeser - I appreciate your attempt to explain things to me. I view it as an honest attempt coming from a sincere place. If you adopt the paradigm that the Bible is truly the word of God, then your assertions make sense. But citing verses from the Bible still requires that we, fallible humans, make the determination that the Bible is truly the infallible word of God. It may in fact be, but we have know rational way of actually knowing that.
Ezekiel Bathfire - similarly, I appreciate the mature tone in your response. You are correct, merely making the assertion that the Bible is the infallible word of God neither makes it true or untrue. How then, do we humans make that evaluation that the Bible is true? How is it that I or you or anyone can determine that it's any more true than the Koran or the Book of Mormon, all of which make similar claims? What you require is an act of "Faith", which is essentially choosing to believe in something/someone without necessarily having adequate rationale to do so.
If I see a chair, I can assume that chair is a good place to sit. I have thousands of examples of siting in chairs that suggest that its safe to do so. Ergo the evidence supports it and it is logically correct for me to assume that. My struggle is with the seemingly irrational leap that a non-believer would have to make from non-belief to belief.
The Mormons solve this by saying more or less that you'll just know, setting the expectation for a numinous experience (also a real word Cranky Old Man).
You see, I have tried. I was raised in a Christian home and the child of a pastor. I've spent my ENTIRE LIFE trying to come to a place where I can have full faith. I have prayed many hours, begging for God to send his spirit into my heart. I have attended, Baptist, Methodist, Lutheran, and Pentecostal churches. I have made that walk up to the front of the church with tears in my eyes, begging to feel God's love envelope me. I went to Sunday School before service, the worship service, the evening worship service, prayer meetings, bible studies and choir practices. I went to private Christian Schools much of my life. But deep down inside I have never been able to make the leap, even though I have wanted it more than anything ever. I look around with envy at those who seem to have found meaning in their faith. The very fact that I am on your forum was because I was debating with an atheist on why I want to believe.
The meanness of your reception not withstanding, that desire still remains. But I will not lie to myself and pretend to find meaning where something seems meaningless. If there is a God, then he has blessed us with free will and the ability to discern for ourselves what is right, wrong, true or false. The ability to choose is fundamental to Christian faith. A person must, on his or her own free will, choose to believe in Christ to received forgiveness. But, God MADE us fallible and it would be completely irrational for him to then punish us for being fallible and making the wrong choice while using the only tool he has given us - our intellect.
Finally, your forum promised honest, intellectual, conversation. I came to you respectfully in search for honest dialogue to help me in my journey, and I was treated poorly. If heaven is populated with the mean spirited people that populate populate some of this forum like Pastor Ezekiel (changing my name to Irrational Loser) and other so called Christians, I'd rather take my chances in hell. I'm fairly certain Jesus would not have changed by screen name. He was know for love and for kindness.
I challenge you to tell me how mocking me demonstrates Christ's love.
Wow. What a welcome I've had to the forum. I've been "cited" by Pastor Ezekiel for the offense of "going yappity yap yap yappity", had my profile name changed to Irrational Loser, and told I'm making up the word "presupposition" which can be looked up in any dictionary, AND is just an extension of the very same word Pim Pendergast used when he started this thread in 2013.
So Cranky Old man - Get a dictionary. Presuppose and presupposition are in fact words in the English language and your ignorance of that fact doesn't make it less true.
John Creeser - I appreciate your attempt to explain things to me. I view it as an honest attempt coming from a sincere place. If you adopt the paradigm that the Bible is truly the word of God, then your assertions make sense. But citing verses from the Bible still requires that we, fallible humans, make the determination that the Bible is truly the infallible word of God. It may in fact be, but we have know rational way of actually knowing that.
Ezekiel Bathfire - similarly, I appreciate the mature tone in your response. You are correct, merely making the assertion that the Bible is the infallible word of God neither makes it true or untrue. How then, do we humans make that evaluation that the Bible is true? How is it that I or you or anyone can determine that it's any more true than the Koran or the Book of Mormon, all of which make similar claims? What you require is an act of "Faith", which is essentially choosing to believe in something/someone without necessarily having adequate rationale to do so.
If I see a chair, I can assume that chair is a good place to sit. I have thousands of examples of siting in chairs that suggest that its safe to do so. Ergo the evidence supports it and it is logically correct for me to assume that. My struggle is with the seemingly irrational leap that a non-believer would have to make from non-belief to belief.
The Mormons solve this by saying more or less that you'll just know, setting the expectation for a numinous experience (also a real word Cranky Old Man).
You see, I have tried. I was raised in a Christian home and the child of a pastor. I've spent my ENTIRE LIFE trying to come to a place where I can have full faith. I have prayed many hours, begging for God to send his spirit into my heart. I have attended, Baptist, Methodist, Lutheran, and Pentecostal churches. I have made that walk up to the front of the church with tears in my eyes, begging to feel God's love envelope me. I went to Sunday School before service, the worship service, the evening worship service, prayer meetings, bible studies and choir practices. I went to private Christian Schools much of my life. But deep down inside I have never been able to make the leap, even though I have wanted it more than anything ever. I look around with envy at those who seem to have found meaning in their faith. The very fact that I am on your forum was because I was debating with an atheist on why I want to believe.
The meanness of your reception not withstanding, that desire still remains. But I will not lie to myself and pretend to find meaning where something seems meaningless. If there is a God, then he has blessed us with free will and the ability to discern for ourselves what is right, wrong, true or false. The ability to choose is fundamental to Christian faith. A person must, on his or her own free will, choose to believe in Christ to received forgiveness. But, God MADE us fallible and it would be completely irrational for him to then punish us for being fallible and making the wrong choice while using the only tool he has given us - our intellect.
Finally, your forum promised honest, intellectual, conversation. I came to you respectfully in search for honest dialogue to help me in my journey, and I was treated poorly. If heaven is populated with the mean spirited people that populate populate some of this forum like Pastor Ezekiel (changing my name to Irrational Loser) and other so called Christians, I'd rather take my chances in hell. I'm fairly certain Jesus would not have changed by screen name. He was know for love and for kindness.
I challenge you to tell me how mocking me demonstrates Christ's love.
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